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Beautyspin

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2012
1,106
1,282
The euro’s setting a fine precedent forming a company based in global revenue. US government should take note. But this will take years to resolve. Good luck to the eu.
DMA is ex ante (before they occur) regulation and hence DMA tries to identify the issues before they occur and ensure that Apple (and others) behave in such a way that those outcomes do not manifest. Apple pays fine and keeps paying fine until it complies while it fights the decision in the CJEU. It might take time.

"the DMA sets ground rules on what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. Of course, the DMA also involves the power to investigate such behaviour and impose corrective remedies"



"The DMA therefore explicitly stipulates that national courts shall not give a decision which runs counter to a decision adopted by the Commission under the DMA."

 

Jamie0003

macrumors 65816
Apr 17, 2009
1,093
770
Norfolk, UK
What happened with type C is that Apple said it would be the iPhone connector for the next decade and it was. Exactly.
Nope. It was because of the EU’s deadline. I know they had until the end of this year but iPhone designs are finalised years in advance. The 10 year thing is simply a coincidence that Apple decided to take advantage of.

Got any proof to this?
 

Jamie0003

macrumors 65816
Apr 17, 2009
1,093
770
Norfolk, UK
More user choice like

Pre-DMA
Apple’s iOS or Google’s Android?

Post-DMA
Apple’s iOS or Google’s Android or… oh wait, there’s literally zero more competition.
And your alternative is Apple and google continue to dominate, is that it? Windows phone for example failed simply because of how much bigger the competition was, amongst other things. It’s not really the EU’s fault nobody else has tried since.

Anyway, this is also about giving developers and users more choice. We should be able to install whatever we want on devices we paid for. And devs should be able to sell their apps however they want, like on windows and Mac os
 
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Colpeas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2011
504
170
Prague, Czech Rep.
Devs should then produce their applications without using any of apples technology or APIs.
You got it all wrong. The devs do pay for the apis and technology. That’s what the developer subscription is for.

You could say the same about windows or macos. Yet neither of these platforms enforce any fees of such kind and devs are free to distribute their product through any channel that they choose.
 

Colpeas

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2011
504
170
Prague, Czech Rep.
Extortion: The practice of obtaining something especially money through force or threats.

Nope, not Extortion. Apple gets nothing unless a developer enters into a business agreement with them.
Well the dev in question don’t have much other choice than to pick between bad and worse. So it’s pretty much exactly what the thesaurus says about extortion: you can either enter the AppStore on Apple’s terms or they’ll bankrupt you for offering your free app elsewhere.
 

haemolysis

macrumors member
Aug 11, 2022
68
70
lol. hard pass.

look, this alternative app store thing is going to go like this: Less than 1% of iPhone users who can install alternative app stores on their iPhone will. 100% of everyday, ordinary iPhone users who don't read MacRumors or tech blogs do not give a **** about alternative app stores. Apple's App Store will be the only one they ever use.

This is true, but only makes it all the more sad that Apple is tightening the noose rather than letting a few stray pennies go.

Many are totally happy with the walled garden. But does paradise need an armed guard? Let those who don’t want to be there leave!
 

Nuno Lopes

macrumors 65816
Sep 6, 2011
1,273
1,159
Lisbon, Portugal
They aren't? That's strange, because the EU seems to say otherwise. Have you taken the time to actually read about the fines and threats of them? You might want to do a quick read if you really want to go with the condescending attitude, because the EU, in their own words, keeps threatening to fine based on percentages of "worldwide revenue". Worldwide revenue...straight from the horses mouth. Otherwise, if that's the attitude you want to take...make sure your facts line up, because the EU's own words don't line up with your claim that the fines aren't based on that.

I am against the EU using global revenues as the base of comparison to establish fines. My own opinion is that deterrents regarding concerns with local activities should always be based on local revenues. Trying to paint the fine as small by using revenues achieved outside of the region instead of local is not a good practice. Case in case my guess is that it is less than 2% if EU based revenues were instead quoted.

Apple revenue in the EU in 2023 was around 94b ... around 25% of Apple global revenue. Just a note out of curiosity, the USA alone accounts for 35%, only 10% more than the EU. So everyone here advising Apple to leave the EU based on whatever the company does not agree regarding local regulations .... should probably shut up as clearly have no idea what such a move would mean to the stock they own not to mention the company credibility world wide.

Apple in my view is playing a reckless ideological game towards a totalitarian future over peoples properties and access to content and digital services subordinate to the company interests, all for minor financial gains. Paving the way for companies to pursue the same business practices. Tim Cook says it's concerned with policies rather than politics ... but the fact is that there is clearly a ideological agenda here concerning the future of digital governance that is far from liberal. Some would say, a quite despotic view.

Fines aren't the solution for anything. They are meant to be deterrents of non compliant practices. The solution is compliance that is it.

Companies fighting against compliance is never a good practice to increase revenue and profits ... never is anywhere in the world!!

1. What is as stake for regulators is actually the maintenance of a cross platform open market in the EU region, similar to the free trade of goods and services across its member states, regardless if digital or physical, built on top of its open economic platform and technological infrastructure, in particular its Open Internet & Communication Infrastructure that was also regulated for such a purpose. That is all there is to it.

2. On not top of this open infrastructure more than one 1/3 of mobile devices connected to the EU open infrastructure are iOS devices, iPhone and iPads. Meaning more than 1/3 of devices used by people, either they have to use a mandatory closed business system controlled by a single private entity in order to access the European digital economy or the included Web Browser controlled by the same private entity.

Get 1 and 2 together and a DMA, with Gatekeeping platforms in mind, a group where iOS Platform is included, was bound to happen. Unless people are distracted with "partisan" company politics or naïve and abstract ultra liberal idealisms that never worked per si in terms of justice and fairness, not even in the USA, it does not take much brains to figure this conclusion out.
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,435
2,298
Scandinavia
I am against the EU using global revenues as the base of comparison to establish fines. My own opinion is that deterrents regarding concerns with local activities should always be based on local revenues. Trying to paint the fine as small by using revenues achieved outside of the region instead of local is not a good practice. Case in case my guess is that it is less than 2% if EU based revenues were instead quoted.

Apple revenue in the EU in 2023 was around 94b ... around 25% of Apple global revenue. Just a note out of curiosity, the USA alone accounts for 35%, only 10% more than the EU. So everyone here advising Apple to leave the EU based on whatever the company does not agree regarding local regulations .... should probably shut up as clearly have no idea what such a move would mean to the stock they own not to mention the company credibility world wide.

Apple in my view is playing a reckless ideological game towards a totalitarian future over peoples properties and access to content and digital services subordinate to the company interests, all for minor financial gains. Paving the way for companies to pursue the same business practices. Tim Cook says it's concerned with policies rather than politics ... but the fact is that there is clearly a ideological agenda here concerning the future of digital governance that is far from liberal. Some would say, a quite despotic view.

Fines aren't the solution for anything. They are meant to be deterrents of non compliant practices. The solution is compliance that is it.

Companies fighting against compliance is never a good practice to increase revenue and profits ... never is anywhere in the world!!

1. What is as stake for regulators is actually the maintenance of a cross platform open market in the EU region, similar to the free trade of goods and services across its member states, regardless if digital or physical, built on top of its open economic platform and technological infrastructure, in particular its Open Internet & Communication Infrastructure that was also regulated for such a purpose. That is all there is to it.

2. On not top of this open infrastructure more than one 1/3 of mobile devices connected to the EU open infrastructure are iOS devices, iPhone and iPads. Meaning more than 1/3 of devices used by people, either they have to use a mandatory closed business system controlled by a single private entity in order to access the European digital economy or the included Web Browser controlled by the same private entity.

Get 1 and 2 together and a DMA, with Gatekeeping platforms in mind, a group where iOS Platform is included, was bound to happen. Unless people are distracted with "partisan" company politics or naïve and abstract ultra liberal idealisms that never worked per si in terms of justice and fairness, not even in the USA, it does not take much brains to figure this conclusion out.
The point of having the 10% of global revenue is to prevent fines from being ether ineffective and to not accidentally bankrupt it.

Example the 10% fine of global revenue would perh Just be 20% of eu revenue. But if a company makes 90% of their revenue in EU or 1% of revenue in EU it suddenly becomes extremely unfair and unreasonable as one is encouraged to change their behavior while the other Probably see it as a rounding error.

The fee is to discourage the action.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,836
22,527
Singapore
I am curious about their clips app and how it will differ from other clipboard managers already found in the App Store. Does it work any differently, or use any APIs currently not allowed? Why does it have to be made available through a third party App Store vs simply being sold as a standalone app?

I initially started with clips (I wonder if there is any correlation between these two identically-named apps), then moved to copied (which has been discontinued and removed from the App Store, though I still have the app on my phone), and am now on copied. The idea is the same - you save snippets of text to the app which you can then quickly access and paste by switching keyboards.

Does this app work any differently, and if so, how?
 

ToyoCorollaGR

macrumors regular
May 21, 2023
136
107
Oh no, maybe people like having everything come from one place instead of having to go to multiple places. Ever consider that? Is it difficult to get apps on the Mac? No. Is it annoying having to go to multiple places to get apps and would it be much more convenient to be able to get them all in one place? Absolutely! The app experience on Mac would be FAR BETTER if the ONLY place I had to go was the App Store. But no, instead, I have to go to multiple vendor websites for multiple apps. None from the same place and my payment information has to be put out into even more places.

The app experience on Mac is absolute crap and something I don’t want to have to deal with on my phone.
You have the choice to use it just as it is now.
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,435
2,298
Scandinavia
Some of you focus on this too much on this, together with article 6(7).

This part of the DMA deals with interoperability with features also used by the gatekeeper for complementary services. It also only applies to alternate service and hardware providers and not necessarily all business users.

The EU Commission isn't investigating Apple at all when it comes to article 6(7). Not even for the core developer fee.
Well EU is investigating Apple for:
  • Apple's new fee structure and other terms and conditions for alternative app stores and distribution of apps from the web (sideloading) may be defeating the purpose of its obligations under Article 6(4) of the DMA.
  • Apple's compliance with user choice obligations

    The Commission has opened proceedings against Apple regarding their measures to comply with obligations to (i) enable end users to easily uninstall any software applications on iOS, (ii) easily change default settings on iOS and (iii). The Commission is concerned that Apple's measures, including the design of the web browser choice screen, may be preventing users from truly exercising their choice of services within the Apple ecosystem, in contravention of Article 6(3) of the DMA.
  • Apple's steering rules

    The Commission has opened proceedings to assess whether the measures implemented by Alphabet and Apple in relation to their obligations pertaining to app stores are in breach of the DMA. Article 5(4) of the DMA requires gatekeepers to allow app developers to “steer” consumers to offers outside the gatekeepers' app stores, free of charge.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,836
22,527
Singapore
You have the choice to use it just as it is now.
With the caveat that certain apps may in time no longer be available in the iOS App Store because the developer decided to publish it elsewhere.

So my question to you (and everyone parroting the same refrain) is - you are right that people can still use the iOS App Store as it is, but can you guarantee that it will still enjoy the same broad selection of apps in the future compared to when it is the only choice now?

Otherwise, it's just another meaningless motherhood statement. Sounds good when you first hear it, but literally falls apart the moment someone attempts to poke holes into it.
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,435
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That’s exactly what it does. Look no further than the fact that the EU keeps threatening to fine based on “worldwide” revenue…something they should have absolutely ZERO right to. The EU should be limited to issuing fines based on revenue from within their economic area. Anything outside of that makes it look like exactly what it is…a money grab.
Or hear me out… follow the law and you won’t be fined. Play special games, win special prices.
Every single time?
Electricity deregulation led to… higher prices and worse service.
The electricity market was deregulated and allowed competition by all parties, improving services and preventing single suppliers from having dominance.
Breaking up AT&T led to… higher prices and worse service
The telecommunication industry was deregulated in some ways and regulated in other and led to even greater services, cheaper prices, vibrant competition between multiple suppliers of telecommunication services. Such as removal of roaming fees and banning carrier locked phones from being sold.

And ironic that T-mobile is owned by the German telecom giant.
(and the loss of Bell Labs, which couldn’t patent anything non-telephony related…
Kind of funny that too that Nokia is the owner of Bell labs since 2016. Seems they could patent a lot of technology within the telephony industry
things like UNIX and stereo sound… and discovering the Big Bang… and there’s a huge laundry list of other things we lost out on). Breaking up Standard Oil led to… higher prices and making a retired man the richest person the planet has ever seen, oh, and also an energy industry that has an incredible amount of influence and control of our government.

Price control has been the only effective tool our government has ever employed… regulation. And that’s a 4-letter word for one of our major parties here.
No wonder you Americans are so paranoid about the government when your own can’t regulate their own backyard properly.

but you shouldn’t use your bad experience of the U.S. government and apply it on other governments who don’t have a perfect record but light years better track record actually keeping the market competitive and accessible …
 

Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,435
2,298
Scandinavia
With the caveat that certain apps may in time no longer be available in the iOS App Store because the developer decided to publish it elsewhere.

So my question to you (and everyone parroting the same refrain) is - you are right that people can still use the iOS App Store as it is, but can you guarantee that it will still enjoy the same broad selection of apps in the future compared to when it is the only choice now?
Ask Apple to make a better AppStore so developers will stay. If it’s good enough they will be multi homing. Otherwise they will flee the sinking ship just like they did on the Mac
Otherwise, it's just another meaningless motherhood statement. Sounds good when you first hear it, but literally falls apart the moment someone attempts to poke holes into it.
What did you do when Fortnite was removed? Did you get an existential crisis or did you shrug/ laugh at them and move on to something else that interested you?

The problem is you argue that developers owes you eternal loyalty to publish their work with Apple irrespective of their own economic interests.

That breaks the fundamental principle To safeguard free choice of business users.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,836
22,527
Singapore
The problem is you argue that developers owes you eternal loyalty to publish their work with Apple irrespective of their own economic interests.

That breaks the fundamental principle To safeguard free choice of business users.

The thing is that you are all arguing that the DMA will benefit both developers and consumers.

I am simply showing that isn’t always the case.

What’s wrong with acknowledging that sometimes, practices which benefit businesses do so at the expense of customers’ interests? Are people worried that support for the DMA will evaporate as a result?

Just be honest. That’s all I ask.
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
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The thing is that you are all arguing that the DMA will benefit both developers and consumers.

I am simply showing that isn’t always the case.
It will benefit businesses and consumers, it’s never been stated by anyone it’s a 100% or nothing. It can be 0.1% or 99%, it can be any arbitrary number as it’s a subjective criteria.
What’s wrong with acknowledging that sometimes, practices which benefit businesses do so at the expense of customers’ interests? Are people worried that support for the DMA will evaporate as a result?

Just be honest. That’s all I ask.
It’s because it’s for the market as an entity and all the stakeholders who are concerned in regards to maintaining the competitive environment as closel to being meritocratic on the quality of the services provided.


That is why many business practices are just plain illegal. Such as Article 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) prohibits market abuses by dominant firms that may affect trade within the EU and prevent or restrict competition.

The prohibition is most frequently applied to exclusionary abuses — which refer to conduct where a dominant company prevents rival firms from entering or expanding in a given market, such as predatory pricing, loyalty rebates, refusal to deal, tying and bundling.

FYI the current General guidelines was published in 2008 and is currently being revised by the Supreme Court to be delivered this year.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,836
22,527
Singapore
It will benefit businesses and consumers, it’s never been stated by anyone it’s a 100% or nothing. It can be 0.1% or 99%, it can be any arbitrary number as it’s a subjective criteria.

Is there any reason why comments here by the supporters have not mentioned any potential drawbacks? You all don’t think there will be any, or you all don’t think they are worth mentioning, or you are afraid it violates the narrative that customers are trapped in a walled prison by Apple and only government intervention can free them from themselves?

For example, I refer to this article.


For example, after I had tested Clip, Testut had to tweak the app’s background monitoring feature in order for Apple to notarize it. The first version I tried used the user’s location to remain active, but was rejected by Apple. Testut then updated Clip with a Map feature — so there’s a reason for the app to remain active in the background — to receive approval.

It feels like a blatant circumvention of existing privacy policies for an app to be continuously monitoring your location in order to stay active in the background. Not to mention the impact on battery life.

I also don’t quite know what to make of an app
Store that relies on patreon pledges as a payment system. It’s … different, but is it really better?

As for the emulator, well, we will have to wait and see if Nintendo has anything to say about that.

Examples of apps like this is the hill that the EU is going to die on.
 
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Nuno Lopes

macrumors 65816
Sep 6, 2011
1,273
1,159
Lisbon, Portugal
The point of having the 10% of global revenue is to prevent fines from being ether ineffective and to not accidentally bankrupt it.

Example the 10% fine of global revenue would perh Just be 20% of eu revenue. But if a company makes 90% of their revenue in EU or 1% of revenue in EU it suddenly becomes extremely unfair and unreasonable as one is encouraged to change their behavior while the other Probably see it as a rounding error.

The fee is to discourage the action.

I disagree with the practice of fining companies based on revenues made outside its jurisdiction. So those x% should be in my view concerned only with EU based revenues. Excessive finingpractices look to me a a lot like a fi$hing ... and it solves nothing after a certain point.

Instead, there are other ways to deter. Such as suspension of iPhones and iPad sales in the region until compliance is reached in extreme cases on top of the fines that may have been given. If judges can suspend product sales based on breaching copy right laws, or breach of contract between companies, why not breaching regulation? Much like Apple does with business that breach the App Store agreements.

Cheers.
 
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Sophisticatednut

macrumors 68020
May 2, 2021
2,435
2,298
Scandinavia
Is there any reason why comments here by the supporters have not mentioned any potential drawbacks? You all don’t think there will be any, or you all don’t think they are worth mentioning,
Of course drawbacks will exist and it’s for customers to decide what they do with that information. It’s Their device to do with
…or you are afraid it violates the narrative that customers are trapped in a walled prison by Apple and only government intervention can free them from themselves?
Customer? By legal definition they are a separate market, and any economic undertakers are stuck with the AppStore if they are an undertaking entity engaged in an economic activity, regardless of its legal status.

And I refer to the commissions ruling In Case T‑604/18, as well as the appeal to the general courts upholding their finding.
ECLI:EU:T:2022:541

JUDGMENT OF THE GENERAL COURT (Sixth Chamber, Extended Composition)
14 September 2022
(Competition – Abuse of dominant position – Smart mobile devices – Decision finding an infringement of Article 102 TFEU and Article 54 of the EEA Agreement – Concepts of multi-sided platform and market (‘ecosystem’) – Operating system (Google Android) – App store (Play Store) – Search and browser applications (Google Search and Chrome)
For example, I refer to this article.

It feels like a blatant circumvention of existing privacy policies for an app to be continuously monitoring your location in order to stay active in the background. Not to mention the impact on battery life.
Well that is an unfortunate workaround they implemented to get the clip app to have a better experience as described in the article. You don’t need to constantly open the app when you want to use it.
the version of Clip I tried differs from similar software offered on Apple’s App Store in that it constantly runs in the background. Normally, clipboard managers on iOS have to use a variety of workarounds to achieve comparable functionality. For example, Paste requires you to open the app each time you want to add something you’ve copied to the clipboard.
This is where Clip thrives, by comparison. When you copy something, you immediately receive a notification and can swipe down to save it to your clipboard.
I also don’t quite know what to make of an app
Store that relies on patreon pledges as a payment system. It’s … different, but is it really better?
I do agree that’s terrible, but they have limited choices in order to afford the 0.5€ fee Apple enforces that makes free apps unworkable effectively…unless you want to risk it.
As for the emulator, well, we will have to wait and see if Nintendo has anything to say about that.
They don’t have anything to say in EU. You have the legal right to copy and modify any software that you own and to make it work.
Examples of apps like this is the hill that the EU is going to die on.
Eu is enforcing their legal principles that the Primary laws essentially dictate what they do and tries to implement. Just like the U.S. Constitution or bill of rights, but more active.
 
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