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It's a lovely piece of art but this is a case of form preceeding function instead of vice versa. Not good. :(

Form preceding function hits the nail on the head. Many are saying it. Why else would you have flat keys? And I don't particularly like the form either, I think Apple are stagnating design wise.

Easy hard drive out and graphics card fairly easy out (def. not soldered to the board) is a must for the iMac. When is it gonna happen? Yes, iMacs will eat into Mac Pro sales more doing that. But you can't use that as the sole reason to have extremely limited upgradability in your top selling desktop.
 
Apple does it or you get a third party repair.


Thanks for your answers.
If you're no longer under warranty, I wonder whats the going price that apple (or third party) charges above the cost of the new drive itself?
I always replaced HD's in my desktops myself, but I don't think I'd want to attempt it on an Imac. I like that the MB's hd is easily replaced but I like the SR processor and both 400 and 800 fw ports on the Imac better though.
 
Thanks for your answers.
If you're no longer under warranty, I wonder whats the going price that apple (or third party) charges above the cost of the new drive itself?
I always replaced HD's in my desktops myself, but I don't think I'd want to attempt it on an Imac. I like that the MB's hd is easily replaced but I like the SR processor and both 400 and 800 fw ports on the Imac better though.
The local Mac shop here charges $60/hr to do such a repair. Given his quotes on the eMac and iMac G4 I wouldn't expect it to take more then an hour.
 
I bought my Corsair ram for my Macbook off Newegg. It was $55 total for 2GB (1GBx2). Using for a month now and so far works perfectly.

Corsair and Crucial are both very reliable options, along-side Kingston.

Oh, man it's a true nightmare!!! I can't stop myself from complaining about these glossy screens. I'm really sensitive to on screen reflection, something that I have experienced in the past and that caused me distraction and headache. I can see that some people like glossy screens (but I don't know a single real person that prefers them over matte displays) but I just want the possibility to choose, an option. I wanted an iMac but seems that i'm stuck with my old Powerbook.

I don't use Florescent lighting, overhead. I use a compact florescent inside a lamp off and behind my workstation. My standard CRT has no reflection from behind me since I also don't face it towards the Window with my back to the window.
 
If you want to sit ergonomically in front of an imac, you need to adjust the display so that it is slightly tilted upward (toward the ceiling light)
Utterly untrue. The ergonomic position is a focal triangle with your eyes at the center level of the display. Your line of sight should always be perpendicular to the panel, thus eliminating reflections. Contrary to the popular meme, a glossy panel is not a simple mirror--it itself is a light source, and no reflection can appear unless two criteria are met: 1) a brighter, focused light is directed at the display and 2) a non-perpendicular angle is used to view the surface.

The proof is in the pudding. You can use a glossy MBP outside on a sunny day. You cannot on the matte MBP, without sacrificing readability and contrast to the point of frustration. Flash photography is exactly the sort of exaggerating effect that highlights reflections on surfaces.
With my matte mbp, I never ever have reflection issues.
That's how I know you're not being fair. That is untrue. Under a spotlight or in direct sunlight, a matte MBP is nearly useless. Further, there is no magical way to deflect the light--a bright light shining on the screen distorts the image. You may prefer that to the surface flare, but it is directly contradictory with the "more accurate color" argument.
Are glossy v matte sales figures available? I wouldn't mind seeing them.
I only have actual numbers for Samsung, which I am not obliged to share with the world, but PC World and a number of magazines have been covering the rapidly growing sales of these displays in the consumer market. The most popular HDTVs and LCD monitors are heavily dominated by the glossy finish.
Not everyone has complete control over the environment in which they use their computer.
If they have no control over either the lighting or the placement of their computer, is it really reasonable to expect that they have control over which computer they get? A simple adjustment of a few inches is enough to fix all but the most egregious light problems--light problems that should be resolved anyway, since such intense light isn't good for your eyes in general.
What science disproves the gripe that there is far more glare on a glossy screen than on a matte?
That you can't generate a glare without a combination of incredibly intense light and off-center viewing angles on a surface that is illuminated. The further off-center you go, the less bright the light needs to be. If you have a flare when working at the computer properly, you were working in a situation with washed out performance before. There's no magic to the matte finish--it just spreads the light over a larger area, and a light that bright would be sufficient to distort a matte panel.
It's an ergonomic nightmare to force people to sit still in a certain position so as to avoid glare
It's an ergonomic nightmare to encourage ergonomic usage? This does not compute.
And, what happens if you need to show a colleague something on your screen? Do you take turns sitting directly in front of it? Swivel the iMac back and forth?
How about just standing or sitting next to you? The display is still readable, and it's not as though the colleague wasn't affected by color shift before.
 
that baby sure doe look sexy when its naked!!!

how much will the previous Gen. of iMacs cost???
 
does anybody have a link to show someone taking out their new imac processor yet. it looks from the mr front page link that it is but anybody done it yet and void that lovely warrenty?
 
Correction

Utterly untrue. The ergonomic position is a focal triangle with your eyes at the center level of the display. Your line of sight should always be perpendicular to the panel, thus eliminating reflections. Contrary to the popular meme, a glossy panel is not a simple mirror--it itself is a light source, and no reflection can appear unless two criteria are met: 1) a brighter, focused light is directed at the display and 2) a non-perpendicular angle is used to view the surface.

Your view needs to be perpendicular to the flat panel, but there needs to be a slight angle to the monitor allowing for a viewer to slightly glance down. I set up ergonomics for employees of a large call center, and this is how we set it up.

The proof is in the pudding. You can use a glossy MBP outside on a sunny day. You cannot on the matte MBP, without sacrificing readability and contrast to the point of frustration. Flash photography is exactly the sort of exaggerating effect that highlights reflections on surfaces.

I tried to use a friends MacBook outside and I gave up. I decided to walk back to my car and get my MBP. That worked fine. That is all the proof I need.

That's how I know you're not being fair. That is untrue. Under a spotlight or in direct sunlight, a matte MBP is nearly useless. Further, there is no magical way to deflect the light--a bright light shining on the screen distorts the image. You may prefer that to the surface flare, but it is directly contradictory with the "more accurate color" argument.

Under a direct spotlight, nothing is useful.

I only have actual numbers for Samsung, which I am not obliged to share with the world, but PC World and a number of magazines have been covering the rapidly growing sales of these displays in the consumer market. The most popular HDTVs and LCD monitors are heavily dominated by the glossy finish.

Popular does not equal better, otherwise no one would buy a mac.

If they have no control over either the lighting or the placement of their computer, is it really reasonable to expect that they have control over which computer they get? A simple adjustment of a few inches is enough to fix all but the most egregious light problems--light problems that should be resolved anyway, since such intense light isn't good for your eyes in general.

That you can't generate a glare without a combination of incredibly intense light and off-center viewing angles on a surface that is illuminated. The further off-center you go, the less bright the light needs to be. If you have a flare when working at the computer properly, you were working in a situation with washed out performance before. There's no magic to the matte finish--it just spreads the light over a larger area, and a light that bright would be sufficient to distort a matte panel.

It's an ergonomic nightmare to encourage ergonomic usage? This does not compute.

How about just standing or sitting next to you? The display is still readable, and it's not as though the colleague wasn't affected by color shift before.

I, I, I give up on going tit-for-tat.

I just wonder why you are so opposed to the option of matte versus glossy. You say the color is better; I say it is harder to see the color through the reflection.

Who is right? Both. That is it. It is a preference. That's all. I prefer my mouse on the right. (My co-worker wants it on the left. Am I going after that person to say that everything is set up for right-side mousing?)

What is so wrong about Apple offering a matte finish as an option? This means so much to me that I am not going to buy an iMac just for the lack of a matte screen. I may save extra money for a Mac Pro. I may stick to my PowerMac G5. I don't know.

Give us the options. If they did, you could have your glossy, and I could have my matte. We both will be happy. It can be done; see the MBP.
 
matte option

...

Popular does not equal better, otherwise no one would buy a mac.

...

I just wonder why you are so opposed to the option of matte versus glossy. You say the color is better; I say it is harder to see the color through the reflection.

Who is right? Both. That is it. It is a preference. That's all. I prefer my mouse on the right. (My co-worker wants it on the left. Am I going after that person to say that everything is set up for right-side mousing?)

What is so wrong about Apple offering a matte finish as an option? This means so much to me that I am not going to buy an iMac just for the lack of a matte screen. I may save extra money for a Mac Pro. I may stick to my PowerMac G5. I don't know.

Give us the options. If they did, you could have your glossy, and I could have my matte. We both will be happy. It can be done; see the MBP.

Exactly!!! I totally agree. Plus this poll says that most Mac users prefer matte screens: http://www.macpolls.com/?poll_id=527

I just can't stand glossy screens and would not buy a glossy Mac. Why Apple doesn't listen to its users? Too expensive to give an option?
 
Your view needs to be perpendicular to the flat panel, but there needs to be a slight angle to the monitor
Perpendicular and slight angle are mutually exclusive.
Under a direct spotlight, nothing is useful.
Exactly.

I just wonder why you are so opposed to the option of matte versus glossy.
I'm not. I have never said anything of the kind. I'm not opposed to people who prefer matte displays, either. I'm opposed to the melodramatic FUD-spreaders who jump up and down about how horrible the panels are and how their lives have been ruined by the inability to get a matte display. There is virtually no usability difference--such a display requires minor adjustment under point-source (i.e. undeflected) lights, but on the other hand, you can use it outside on bright and sunny days, unlike a matte panel. They're different. Neither one is categorically superior for everyone, but the trend is toward the glossy panels because they provide superior brightness and contrast. In the consumer market, this is more important. It provides a generally superior experience and is preferable to most people; that's the long and the short of it.

90% of the complaining comes from people who have never used or owned such a product, and it's tiresome. You'll find dozens of threads about skeptics who changed their mind after a few days from when the glossy displays first became available. People here are resistant to change--even on keys that haven't existed for 20 years.

Exactly!!! I totally agree. Plus this poll says that most Mac users prefer matte screens: http://www.macpolls.com/?poll_id=527
No, it doesn't.
 
Perpendicular and slight angle are mutually exclusive.

You are confusing the angle of the monitor's face from vertical and the angle between the monitor and the line of sight. The angle of the monitor's face should be between 15 degrees and 50 degrees off of true vertical (i.e. wall mounted). The line of sight should be perpendicular (or near perpendicular) to the monitor's face.

Guidel2.jpg



I'm opposed to the melodramatic FUD-spreaders who jump up and down about how horrible the panels are and how their lives have been ruined by the inability to get a matte display. There is virtually no usability difference--such a display requires minor adjustment under point-source (i.e. undeflected) lights, but on the other hand, you can use it outside on bright and sunny days, unlike a matte panel. They're different. Neither one is categorically superior for everyone, but the trend is toward the glossy panels because they provide superior brightness and contrast. In the consumer market, this is more important. It provides a generally superior experience and is preferable to most people; that's the long and the short of it.

<irony>"melodramatic"</irony>

You make blanket statements as if they are fact in every case. For example, I have used my matte MBP outside on a sunny day, and I used a friend's MacBook. One was not better than the other. The glossy picked up too much reflection. The matte didn't convey the detail.

Interestingly, when I searched the internet for some data, I found most people wanted matte. Here is an interesting site:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061018-8022.html (Notice how it ends with "While glossy screens may be the current fad, manufacturers would be better served by offering their customers a matte option for all models.")

I went to Fry's Electronics this evening. The glossy over matte is hardly lopsided. Most PCs are glossy. But the stand alone monitors and televisions were mixed. Apple's high-end monitors are matte. (They were last updated after Apple decided to go all glossy for MacBooks. So this is not a trend for Apple.)

90% of the complaining comes from people who have never used or owned such a product, and it's tiresome. You'll find dozens of threads about skeptics who changed their mind after a few days from when the glossy displays first became available. People here are resistant to change--even on keys that haven't existed for 20 years.

I am not going spend a few thousand dollars to "try out" a glossy finish. I have played with it at the store and on a friend's MacBook.

Also, you can find dozens of threads from those who regret their decision.

Change for the sake of change is pointless.
 
You are confusing the angle of the monitor's face from vertical and the angle between the monitor and the line of sight.
No, I'm not. It makes no difference what the monitor's position from vertical is. The only angle of relevance is the viewing angle. Whether the angle is tilted 10 degrees toward the ceiling or 90 degrees doesn't matter.

You're confusing proper placement for ergonomics with placement for reflections. Proper installation location of a monitor has never been an issue in this thread.
The angle of the monitor's face should be between 15 degrees and 50 degrees off of true vertical (i.e. wall mounted).
Irrelevant. That is advice for placement sitting at a desk chair and has nothing to do with overall use in terms of reflectivity. The only ergonomic statement is that the line of sight should be perpendicular to the display.

The 15-50 range doesn't apply to standing, lying down, or partial reclining and isn't the subject of debate.
The glossy picked up too much reflection. The matte didn't convey the detail.
The difference being that you can avoid reflection by moving the display. You cannot avoid ambient light without going into the shade. The greater brightness and contrast simply allows for greater visibility in full sun--it's a simple function of the increased brightness and contrast, not of glossy v. matte (except that the glossy display is what facilitates the enhancement).
Notice how it ends with "While glossy screens may be the current fad, manufacturers would be better served by offering their customers a matte option for all models.")
Notice instead how it says "Lenovo's poll may not reflect the true preference of the buying public in general" and how the methodology is flawed since it didn't ask a true comparison--it only asked for a gut reaction, which is exactly what they received. Some other useful quotes:
"Newer coating technologies are able to reduce glare somewhat while maintaining bright colors and a glossy sheen."
"There are some advantages to having a glossy screen: in particular, outdoor visibility is greatly increased."

And once again, I never opposed offering a choice. You're continuing to attack a series of self-created strawmen, while self-selecting what you want to hear from sources that don't, in fact, say what you think they do.
I went to Fry's Electronics this evening. The glossy over matte is hardly lopsided. Most PCs are glossy. But the stand alone monitors and televisions were mixed.
Seems quite lopsided to me, particularly if you ask which ones are moving faster (hint: it's the glossy ones).
Also, you can find dozens of threads from those who regret their decision.
Such as?
Change for the sake of change is pointless.
Without even assessing the validity of that statement, glossy panels don't qualify as "change for the sake of change." You get better ambient light performance, greater brightness, greater contrast, richer colors, better black levels, and a more durable surface. Color accuracy is not a factor in midmarket consumer products, and the glare issue is grossly overblown.
 
No, I'm not. It makes no difference what the monitor's position from vertical is. The only angle of relevance is the viewing angle. Whether the angle is tilted 10 degrees toward the ceiling or 90 degrees doesn't matter.

You're confusing proper placement for ergonomics with placement for reflections. Proper installation location of a monitor has never been an issue in this thread.

You assume way too much. The thread above talked about tilting the monitor for ergo reasons and picking up the light from the ceiling.

Irrelevant. That is advice for placement sitting at a desk chair and has nothing to do with overall use in terms of reflectivity. The only ergonomic statement is that the line of sight should be perpendicular to the display.

The 15-50 range doesn't apply to standing, lying down, or partial reclining and isn't the subject of debate.

The difference being that you can avoid reflection by moving the display. You cannot avoid ambient light without going into the shade. The greater brightness and contrast simply allows for greater visibility in full sun--it's a simple function of the increased brightness and contrast, not of glossy v. matte (except that the glossy display is what facilitates the enhancement).

Why do you go on and on and on and on about outside lighting? I don't know of anyone who takes their iMac outside. I'm not saying you can't take it outside. But how often does this really happen?

Notice instead how it says "Lenovo's poll may not reflect the true preference of the buying public in general" and how the methodology is flawed since it didn't ask a true comparison--it only asked for a gut reaction, which is exactly what they received. Some other useful quotes:
"Newer coating technologies are able to reduce glare somewhat while maintaining bright colors and a glossy sheen."
"There are some advantages to having a glossy screen: in particular, outdoor visibility is greatly increased."

Talk about cherry picking quotes.

So I ask you to please supply your data.

And once again, I never opposed offering a choice. You're continuing to attack a series of self-created strawmen, while self-selecting what you want to hear from sources that don't, in fact, say what you think they do.

And you continue to go back to the same thing over and over (see the outside comment above). I have not seen anything from you to support your position.

Seems quite lopsided to me, particularly if you ask which ones are moving faster (hint: it's the glossy ones).

Again, popular doesn't equal better. And I doubt the "it's the glossy ones" statement based on personal observations.


I bet in the same place that you can find "dozens of threads about skeptics who changed their mind after a few days from when the glossy displays first became available. "

Without even assessing the validity of that statement, glossy panels don't qualify as "change for the sake of change." You get better ambient light performance, greater brightness, greater contrast, richer colors, better black levels, and a more durable surface. Color accuracy is not a factor in midmarket consumer products, and the glare issue is grossly overblown.

I would hardly call it overblown. You get random reflections, glare, smudges, a good reflection of the viewer. It is quite distracting. If it was such a magnificent invention, why are the high end panels predominantly matte panels?
 
I just can't stand glossy screens and would not buy a glossy Mac. Why Apple doesn't listen to its users? Too expensive to give an option?

Wow. Looks like I missed a good forum fight here yesterday. :)

Played in the Apple store yesterday, and have to say a glossy screen is the only reason I'm questioning buying a new machine. It's really annoying, but it is annoying enough? Am I really going to regret it in 2 months or so? (it would also be my first Intel machine, which is a reason I want to finally upgrade). If it were a matte screen I would own it already.

Hey, maybe we can pop the glass off like the disassembly picture and have a matted life again. :)
 
Hey, maybe we can pop the glass off like the disassembly picture and have a matted life again. :)

If it is legal I'm sure some company will make something like that, but unless you do it in a truly dust-free environment, you'll have dust under your screen and it will annoy the heck out of you more so than a glossy finish.
 
If you say so. My stupidly expensive Apple 17" CRT certainly reflected, as has every CRT that I've ever sat in front of.

Please note, I'm not saying that you're wrong, only that I have never encountered this and I imagine I'm not alone in this. People used to deal with reflections very easily ... you just look right through them at what's on the screen!

You may still colour me vaguely mystified.

Cheers

Jim

You are absolutely right. I still have crt at home and does reflect. I bought new iMac 24" for my son two days ago. Yes, there is a reflection, but it is only if you focus on it. It reminds me stereo viewing. Just don't look at the reflection and look at what is on the screen. Screen does look great and bright. I was setting up the iMac and was going back and forth to my laptop and it looked dim after iMac. On iMac I put the brightness to min and it is still very bright. DVDs and pictures look very good. I deal with video editing and I don't find glare a big problem. My son does not notice it all. Design-wise it looks great. I was skeptical at first, but it does look good in person. I don't know how it was on previous models, but the top gets quite warm, but I guess it is because of aluminum, as it absorbs the heat. The keyboard I find very nice, absolutely quite. The only thing I don't use is the mouse, I hate one button ones, I don't know why apple still uses them. It looks funny though now, apple computer and microsoft mouse (works great).
 
... The only thing I don't use is the mouse, I hate one button ones, I don't know why apple still uses them. It looks funny though now, apple computer and microsoft mouse (works great).

The Mighty Mouse isn't one button really.... you can have right-clicking on it.

Plus it's got a track/scroll ball! :) The one thing I like about PCs...
 
I saw in the presentation that there is only one screw to remove to get to the RAM. I am planning on buying a new 24" iMac when Leopard comes out and I would like it to be outfitted with 2 Gigs of RAM but it is $135 in the Apple Store on-line to upgrade to 2 Gigs. What is anyone's experience with buying cheap 3rd party RAM for their iMacs? Currently on newegg there are prices as low as $35 for TechWorks and as low as $45 for Corsair 1 Gig modules. Should it send up a red flag that there is THAT much of a price difference? OR should I be completely safe going with one of those sticks for my upgrade to 2 Gigs?
I just bought 4 Gb of Ram from OWC for $233.94. That's a long way from Apple's pricing. I've used them before and it worked out with no problems.
 
It's actually a 4 button mouse: left, right, push trackball, and squeeze sides. You can set these buttons' functions in the Keyboard & Mouse preference pane in System Preferences.

I did open preferences and it only gave me few options: Tracking speed, double click speed, scrolling speed and primary button (left/right). I looked on apple site and it looks different, with a lot of options. Am I missing something on my mac? It is probably offtop.....sorry.
 
I did open preferences and it only gave me few options: Tracking speed, double click speed, scrolling speed and primary button (left/right). I looked on apple site and it looks different, with a lot of options. Am I missing something on my mac? It is probably offtop.....sorry.

Have you upgraded your version of OSX?

My guess is you either need to install the drivers which came on the CD with the Mighty Mouse, or upgrade (for free, via Software Update) to a version of OSX which includes those drivers.
 
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