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Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,612
10,915
I guess you've only started to use a Mac recently. If you had more experience using Mac OS in general you would've understood why tricks like full screen apps or splitting the screen work only for compatible apps. The window management in OS X has always been different from Windows because, well, they are two different operating systems.
You guessed it. I am a complete Mac new user. I use Yosemite less than 4 months, however this OS brings me really bad impression.
But talking about window management on Mac and Windows, I know nothing about it, although I already know I SHOULD NOT treat Mac using what I know from Windows. Habit, is dangerous.
 

cjmillsnun

macrumors 68020
Aug 28, 2009
2,399
48
If I simply crash this beta, I would not get the conclusion saying Apple is no longer innovative and creative. Plus, I think now they are not so innovative and creative, doesn't mean they lose creativity and innovation once and for all.

I say external drives crashes OS X, because I use a third party software. I can suspect possible compatibility issue with that software. However, if OS is strong enough, it should not become completely unusable after a few times force reboot, due to whatever reason. At this point, Windows is more durable than current Mac OS X. You know Windows has a blue screen, right? Mac OS X don't have it, because when it goes down, you may not realise it before you reboot. In addition, I have checked hardware in local Apple store several times, and staff says nothing strange found on the hardware.

I am also not a native English speaker. And I surely realise this is just a beta software. I know what does this mean for a software under developing progress.

BTW, if Yosemite is so awesome and so stable, why there are still a handful count of companies, institutions and home users use Mac OS X? (I say the situation outside USA) Because what? Windows has extremely strong App support, while Mac software support is still on the way. Windows can be installed on many PC with various configurations, while Mac can only be installed on those handful types of configurations.

Well, if I continue, I am afraid I will lose temper. I will stop in here. However, I will keep my opinion: Mac OS X is NOT so stable as what I imagined before.


Ohhhh I'm going to have fun with this one.

OK You've found a bug. Flag it to Apple. This is a Beta. Fine.

Ahh you've found two bugs. External drives with third party software (I assume you mean by the drive manufacturer) are infamous for using undocumented OS calls. Apple then comes along and plugs those calls as they are not supposed to be used, and the thing crashes.

Apple does have the equivalent of a blue screen. Ask people about Kernel Panics and the screen you get.

No as to the whys and wherefores about Microsoft's domination over everyone else. Look up the word antitrust. It's nothing to do with durability and stability. It is down to the fact that the IBM PC got a foothold over the Mac early on in the game (it was cheaper) and that Microsoft abused the monopoly position it had to make Windows the defacto OS. Unfortunately by the time the DOJ realised and tried to do something about it, it was way too late. People were effectively tied into a system.

Work out how much it would cost a firm to replace all its PCs with Macs (forget the physical cost of the hardware. Look at the cost of developing custom software and/or buying off the shelf software, then the cost of retraining all users to be proficient. Then the inevitable teething problems.) For a large company that can run into millions. Now compare with Windows 7, which will run most of the software that ran on XP. Whilst subtly different, only minor retraining is required. It's cheaper. Now look and realise that a lot of the hardware that ran XP can also run 7 quite happily. (What? You mean only a software rebuild and the PC is up and running???!). That's why, although a fundamentally more unstable and buggy back end now dominates.

Apple does have strong app support by the way. Most of the tasks that PCs do can be done with off the shelf software.

PCs also dominate because they can be bought for less than the cost of a Mac. No, the quality of the machine isn't as good, but it does the job.

I look at this from two angles.

I use a PC at work. It does the job just fine.

But I use a Mac at home (I also have a PC and a raspberry Pi because I'm a geek, but my main computers are my rMBP and a 2009 iMac 27"). I do this because I find it better than a PC.

Now is OS X Yosemite as stable as some of the older versions? Nope. But Apple seems to be learning from that and thus El Cap is a Yosemite refinement with core improvements much like Snow Leopard was a refinement of Leopard.
 
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cjmillsnun

macrumors 68020
Aug 28, 2009
2,399
48
If you've said rock solid on Snow Leopard I would've concurred. However given the current sad state of OS X, I must ask you to please check your confirmation bias...

I wouldn't even say Snow is rock solid. It has memory management issues in my experience (and others) by not releasing inactive memory and paging to disk instead. Lion fixed this (but introduced many other bugs). If you want rock solid, IMO you have to go back to Tiger or Panther.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,612
10,915
Ohhhh I'm going to have fun with this one.

OK You've found a bug. Flag it to Apple. This is a Beta. Fine.

Ahh you've found two bugs. External drives with third party software (I assume you mean by the drive manufacturer) are infamous for using undocumented OS calls. Apple then comes along and plugs those calls as they are not supposed to be used, and the thing crashes.

Apple does have the equivalent of a blue screen. Ask people about Kernel Panics and the screen you get.

No as to the whys and wherefores about Microsoft's domination over everyone else. Look up the word antitrust. It's nothing to do with durability and stability. It is down to the fact that the IBM PC got a foothold over the Mac early on in the game (it was cheaper) and that Microsoft abused the monopoly position it had to make Windows the defacto OS. Unfortunately by the time the DOJ realised and tried to do something about it, it was way too late. People were effectively tied into a system.

Work out how much it would cost a firm to replace all its PCs with Macs (forget the physical cost of the hardware. Look at the cost of developing custom software and/or buying off the shelf software, then the cost of retraining all users to be proficient. Then the inevitable teething problems.) For a large company that can run into millions. Now compare with Windows 7, which will run most of the software that ran on XP. Whilst subtly different, only minor retraining is required. It's cheaper. Now look and realise that a lot of the hardware that ran XP can also run 7 quite happily. (What? You mean only a software rebuild and the PC is up and running???!). That's why, although a fundamentally more unstable and buggy back end now dominates.

Apple does have strong app support by the way. Most of the tasks that PCs do can be done with off the shelf software.

PCs also dominate because they can be bought for less than the cost of a Mac. No, the quality of the machine isn't as good, but it does the job.

I look at this from two angles.

I use a PC at work. It does the job just fine.

But I use a Mac at home (I also have a PC and a raspberry Pi because I'm a geek, but my main computers are my rMBP and a 2009 iMac 27"). I do this because I find it better than a PC.

Now is OS X Yosemite as stable as some of the older versions? Nope. But Apple seems to be learning from that and thus El Cap is a Yosemite refinement with core improvements much like Snow Leopard was a refinement of Leopard.
Well, all right.

I obviously don't know what they are doing on their own software. Maybe the only thing I know is such software is not as good as OS integrated one, although, asking for Mac to support R/W on NTFS is just kidding.

I have heard that screen, and it is often seen on some failed hackintosh machines. Generally speaking, this one just covers some of possible crash situations. Others such as sticking at the desktop, with no dock, no menu bar, no program starting, like that.

Yes. IBM PC entered this market earlier than Mac, and it was cheaper. Price became the first piece of dominoes, and everything changed from that. I think, without IBM PC, we cannot see so many PC in the market, and children would never be able to know what PC looks like, and how powerful it is when they are still young. For Mac, I admit it is beautiful, in many ways. Apple design Mac as a special object fulfilled with art elements. A Mac, even now, may let users feel stunning, astonishing, and shocking. Plus the Mac OS X runs in a quite different way than Windows. Then, when customers check the price, ok, that is all. Then, next stop of customers may turn to a PC market, searching for a PC with unique design and reasonable price, or low price with reasonable design. There is nothing a Mac can do, and you Do know a thousand dollar still represents a lot of money.

So, as you say, Mac enter this market later than IBM PC, and Mac price is ALWAYS that high, preventing millions, if not billions, of potential customers trying to feel the real power of Mac and Mac OS X. I accept Apple's demand to polish Apple brand as a unique high end tech brand in the world, and that is why lots of potential customers admire buyers owning a Mac, whatever they have at hand. We see iPhone becomes a, to some extent, popular phone, and even a trend, throughout the world, maybe because phone can be purchased using contract. You know if you want to own, say, iPhone 6s or 6s Plus, you can either buy a phone with full price, say, $1099, or sign a contract, and add $399 to own a new iPhone. See the difference? $600 cheaper. Price.

OK, I just concentrate on price, but either you and I must admit this thing is really powerful.

Talking about software support, I agree, Mac OS X is easier to use in some ways, such as handy spotlight, easy way to check wireless connection condition without adding softwares, and say, El Capitan handy magnifying cursor feature. However, Mac install base is still small, if we see the world install base. Maybe in US, half of the customers uses Mac. However many more customers uses Windows PC around the globe. IE still takes a large cake of desktop browser market share, while safari is still at a very low point.

Here is a brief result I find in SitePoint:
http://www.sitepoint.com/browser-trends-april-2015-statcounter-vs-netmarketshare/
Let's ignore the fierce battle between IE and Chrome, just only see Safari. None of those desktop marketshare static shows Safari is more popular than IE, although both IE and Safari are tied within Windows and Mac OS X respectively.

This reflects great difference of install base and popularity, and developers may probably abandon Mac OS X, and develop software for Windows first. Although, I believe, Mac OS X "out of box" experience is generally better than Windows, at the very beginning.

Talking about quality of machine, thanks to Mac, they dominates top level quality of resources to build Mac and iDevices, with packs of patents. This seriously prevents other PC manufactures from producing a product as great as Apple Mac or iDevices. Then, lots of PC manufacturers can only choose plastic to build their own machine. That is a great difference.

Ha, never thought I took one hour to reply your comment. ;) Solid one hour.
 

cjmillsnun

macrumors 68020
Aug 28, 2009
2,399
48
Well, all right.

I obviously don't know what they are doing on their own software. Maybe the only thing I know is such software is not as good as OS integrated one, although, asking for Mac to support R/W on NTFS is just kidding.

That's because NTFS is a Windows thing. It is a partition system owned by Microsoft.

I have heard that screen, and it is often seen on some failed hackintosh machines. Generally speaking, this one just covers some of possible crash situations. Others such as sticking at the desktop, with no dock, no menu bar, no program starting, like that.

And people have exactly the same problems with Windows. The BSOD doesn't cover all Windows crashes.

Yes. IBM PC entered this market earlier than Mac, and it was cheaper. Price became the first piece of dominoes, and everything changed from that. I think, without IBM PC, we cannot see so many PC in the market, and children would never be able to know what PC looks like, and how powerful it is when they are still young. For Mac, I admit it is beautiful, in many ways. Apple design Mac as a special object fulfilled with art elements. A Mac, even now, may let users feel stunning, astonishing, and shocking. Plus the Mac OS X runs in a quite different way than Windows. Then, when customers check the price, ok, that is all. Then, next stop of customers may turn to a PC market, searching for a PC with unique design and reasonable price, or low price with reasonable design. There is nothing a Mac can do, and you Do know a thousand dollar still represents a lot of money.

Completely disagree. Look around the world to prove otherwise. In the US you had the Apple ][ which really kickstarted the microcomputer revolution. In the UK a generation grew up computer literate because of the BBC Micro and the Sinclair Spectrum. Worldwide, Commodore made many popular computers. All could do serious work.

So, as you say, Mac enter this market later than IBM PC, and Mac price is ALWAYS that high, preventing millions, if not billions, of potential customers trying to feel the real power of Mac and Mac OS X. I accept Apple's demand to polish Apple brand as a unique high end tech brand in the world, and that is why lots of potential customers admire buyers owning a Mac, whatever they have at hand. We see iPhone becomes a, to some extent, popular phone, and even a trend, throughout the world, maybe because phone can be purchased using contract. You know if you want to own, say, iPhone 6s or 6s Plus, you can either buy a phone with full price, say, $1099, or sign a contract, and add $399 to own a new iPhone. See the difference? $600 cheaper. Price.

OK, I just concentrate on price, but either you and I must admit this thing is really powerful.

At the time, the Apple used a GUI, Microsoft did not and used the text based operating system MS-DOS (called PC-DOS on the IBM) for the PC. Apple's Mac was revolutionary compared to the PC, and put the polish on Xerox's invention. However there was a saying back in the day... No one ever got fired for buying IBM.

And is the iPhone with a contract $600 cheaper. Not really. Here in the UK, I can get an iPhone on a contract for about £45 a month for 24 months with a £99 upfront cost for the handset. So for that 2 years I'd be paying £99 for the handset and £1080 on the phone contract.

I could but that same iPhone for £539 from Apple and lay out £17 per month for a contract with exactly the same terms and conditions. However I'm only tied into that contract for 12 months and could leave and go to a new provider. If I stayed for a further year after the minimum contract period (2 years overall) I'd be saving over £200.

Apple have always put themselves at the premium end of the market since Steve Jobs returned in 1997.

Talking about software support, I agree, Mac OS X is easier to use in some ways, such as handy spotlight, easy way to check wireless connection condition without adding softwares, and say, El Capitan handy magnifying cursor feature. However, Mac install base is still small, if we see the world install base. Maybe in US, half of the customers uses Mac. However many more customers uses Windows PC around the globe. IE still takes a large cake of desktop browser market share, while safari is still at a very low point.

Here is a brief result I find in SitePoint:
http://www.sitepoint.com/browser-trends-april-2015-statcounter-vs-netmarketshare/
Let's ignore the fierce battle between IE and Chrome, just only see Safari. None of those desktop marketshare static shows Safari is more popular than IE, although both IE and Safari are tied within Windows and Mac OS X respectively.

This reflects great difference of install base and popularity, and developers may probably abandon Mac OS X, and develop software for Windows first. Although, I believe, Mac OS X "out of box" experience is generally better than Windows, at the very beginning.

Again I disagree. The PC and Windows has always had a bigger install base than the Mac. Nothing has changed, nothing ever will change. We know that. It's sod all about how good Windows is or isn't. It is down to some poor planning by Apple at the beginning of the Mac and dodgy business practices by Microsoft in the 90's that froze out competitors by forcing PC vendors to pay for a Windows licence even when a different operating system was offered with the machine. They got prosecuted for this (but got away lightly IMO) as it was illegal to do that. Problem is, you try getting someone away from what they are used to. I'm not beating up on Windows, because I actually think MS is trying to take the fight to Apple Windows 10 looks really good and is some real innovation.

Talking about quality of machine, thanks to Mac, they dominates top level quality of resources to build Mac and iDevices, with packs of patents. This seriously prevents other PC manufactures from producing a product as great as Apple Mac or iDevices. Then, lots of PC manufacturers can only choose plastic to build their own machine. That is a great difference.

Ha, never thought I took one hour to reply your comment. ;) Solid one hour.

Bull. There is nothing at all stopping any PC manufacturer from building a PC to the same quality as any Mac. There is nothing stopping a PC manufacturer from using metal as a laptop case, and some do. I've had a PC laptop that had a magnesium alloy bottom case. Sadly the palmrest was plastic. But it was a decent quality machine, and was almost up to the build quality of my rMBP. It's about innovation and quality, not necessarily about patents.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,612
10,915
That's because NTFS is a Windows thing. It is a partition system owned by Microsoft.



And people have exactly the same problems with Windows. The BSOD doesn't cover all Windows crashes.



Completely disagree. Look around the world to prove otherwise. In the US you had the Apple ][ which really kickstarted the microcomputer revolution. In the UK a generation grew up computer literate because of the BBC Micro and the Sinclair Spectrum. Worldwide, Commodore made many popular computers. All could do serious work.



At the time, the Apple used a GUI, Microsoft did not and used the text based operating system MS-DOS (called PC-DOS on the IBM) for the PC. Apple's Mac was revolutionary compared to the PC, and put the polish on Xerox's invention. However there was a saying back in the day... No one ever got fired for buying IBM.

And is the iPhone with a contract $600 cheaper. Not really. Here in the UK, I can get an iPhone on a contract for about £45 a month for 24 months with a £99 upfront cost for the handset. So for that 2 years I'd be paying £99 for the handset and £1080 on the phone contract.

I could but that same iPhone for £539 from Apple and lay out £17 per month for a contract with exactly the same terms and conditions. However I'm only tied into that contract for 12 months and could leave and go to a new provider. If I stayed for a further year after the minimum contract period (2 years overall) I'd be saving over £200.

Apple have always put themselves at the premium end of the market since Steve Jobs returned in 1997.



Again I disagree. The PC and Windows has always had a bigger install base than the Mac. Nothing has changed, nothing ever will change. We know that. It's sod all about how good Windows is or isn't. It is down to some poor planning by Apple at the beginning of the Mac and dodgy business practices by Microsoft in the 90's that froze out competitors by forcing PC vendors to pay for a Windows licence even when a different operating system was offered with the machine. They got prosecuted for this (but got away lightly IMO) as it was illegal to do that. Problem is, you try getting someone away from what they are used to. I'm not beating up on Windows, because I actually think MS is trying to take the fight to Apple Windows 10 looks really good and is some real innovation.



Bull. There is nothing at all stopping any PC manufacturer from building a PC to the same quality as any Mac. There is nothing stopping a PC manufacturer from using metal as a laptop case, and some do. I've had a PC laptop that had a magnesium alloy bottom case. Sadly the palmrest was plastic. But it was a decent quality machine, and was almost up to the build quality of my rMBP. It's about innovation and quality, not necessarily about patents.

After reading all reply twice, I give up.

I end up here. That is all.
 
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