Am I scammed by ebay buyer

[jimmy4o8]

I work at a tech company that sells massive amounts of products on eBay for over 10 years. Top rated seller. Ive had multiple cases where we've sold working laptops with our own warranty tag and policy. If they remove the sticker, they void the warranty.

Ive had cases where buyers even swapped out the entire motherboard with a different one and serial numbers don't match and warranty tags are removed.

The thing is...when a buyer opens a case through eBay, all warranty from the seller gets voided and eBays rules and policies comes into play. All the warranty and return policy you implement no longer matters. Been through this multiple times throughout my career. It's very frustrating

 

[madrich]

You sum it nicely. I am only 99.999% sure that the problem was not there on shipping and at the same time it bugs me, that he waited so long and even with problem, he "touched it inside" instead bringing it to Apple in Pasadena.
I received an off-line offer for a flat fee motherboard repair which may be useful later. Today is deadline for me providing the shipping label, not doing it under the (real) pretext that after reviewing the photographs the buyer provided, I found that he is not able to send me the same product he received (plus the other good suggestions I received here)

I wish you good luck. Please let us know how this situation is resolved. All of us can learn from your experience. I know that I have learned more about eBay fraud, and will be more cautious about buying expensive items on eBay.
[doublepost=1504216800][/doublepost]

basing this on experience? Its common knowledge that Ebay and Paypal always find in favour of the buyer. Im sure there is one exception that proves

Yes, I am basing it on my experience where the Seller "inadvertently" misrepresented the product they were selling. In each case, I filed a complaint with eBay and proved that the Seller was wrong, but I also offered the seller a resolution that I was satisfied with; like a partial rebate of my purchase price.

 

[Rocko99991]

I work at a tech company that sells massive amounts of products on eBay for over 10 years. Top rated seller. Ive had multiple cases where we've sold working laptops with our own warranty tag and policy. If they remove the sticker, they void the warranty.

Ive had cases where buyers even swapped out the entire motherboard with a different one and serial numbers don't match and warranty tags are removed.

The thing is...when a buyer opens a case through eBay, all warranty from the seller gets voided and eBays rules and policies comes into play. All the warranty and return policy you implement no longer matters. Been through this multiple times throughout my career. It's very frustrating

This. Put whatever 'rules' you want in your ad. It won't matter a hill of beans when ebay/paypal step in. Buyer claims box arrived empty, gets his money back and has a nice macbook air. You have no recourse.

 

[madrich]

I received an off-line offer for a flat fee motherboard repair which may be useful later. Today is deadline for me providing the shipping label, not doing it under the (real) pretext that after reviewing the photographs the buyer provided, I found that he is not able to send me the same product he received (plus the other good suggestions I received here)

PS: The buyer does not need your shipping label to send it back to you. If it does come back to you, you will need to decide if you are going to refuse it, or not. If you refuse it do not open the box, just return to sender.

 

[Sedulous]

That is certainly liquid damage to the DC board. It is not from leaking board components. The "good news" is that the DC board is both easy and inexpensive to replace. I can only guess at what the liquid was but it must have been fairly thick otherwise it would have dispersed more. Most I would offer is price of the DC board (somewhere around $12).

 

[davidoloan]

Yes, I am basing it on my experience where the Seller "inadvertently" misrepresented the product they were selling. In each case, I filed a complaint with eBay and proved that the Seller was wrong, but I also offered the seller a resolution that I was satisfied with; like a partial rebate of my purchase price.

You sound like a reasonable nice guy who approached his ebay complaint from a position of honesty and was willing to make a valid settlement with the seller.

However, if you were the seller and a fraudster was making your offer, the informed seller would take your offer of part settlement in an instant because if he does not ebay will refund the full purchase money.

You may think you proved your case and they may have listened to all your words, but if you had simply told ebay "it doesn't work", they would tell you to send it back recorded, to the seller and they would refund the money to you as soon as you get the notification that the box was signed for at the sellers address.

It would be entirely up to you whether you put the item in the box or a bunch of screws and nuts and bolts as I had the misfortune to receive.

In the case were I received the box of screws back, as soon as the case complaint was opened by the buyer, ebay wrote to me stating that they strongly advised me to offer to accept the item back and issue a refund. This is before they investigated it. I refused and asked for the case to proceed instead. I made a strong case as to why the complaint was invalid. Ebay found in the buyers favour as they do in every single case. I received the box of screws and ebay gave him the purchase money back and took the money from my bank account by direct debit via paypal.

I complained that I had received a box of screws and ebay told me "the case is closed"

In a similar but separate case some time after I was ****ed over by ebay, they decided to close the account of the buyer who had made a claim against me and had been refunded. They removed the negative feedback he left me - they actually removed all feedback received and left by him from the system.

However, although they had clearly decided that after multiple claims that he was a fraudster, and that they were removing his account, they did not refund me the money they took from me to give to him.

With all due respect I think you are bit naive about fraud and the percentage of people who are quite wiling to carry out these small frauds without a second though.

 

[madrich]

You sound like a reasonable nice guy who approached his ebay complaint from a position of honesty and was willing to make a valid settlement with the seller.

However, if you were the seller and a fraudster was making your offer, the informed seller would take your offer of part settlement in an instant because if he does not ebay will refund the full purchase money.

You may think you proved your case and they may have listened to all your words, but if you had simply told ebay "it doesn't work", they would tell you to send it back recorded, to the seller and they would refund the money to you as soon as you get the notification that the box was signed for at the sellers address.

It would be entirely up to you whether you put the item in the box or a bunch of screws and nuts and bolts as I had the misfortune to receive.

In the case were I received the box of screws back, as soon as the case complaint was opened by the buyer, ebay wrote to me stating that they strongly advised me to offer to accept the item back and issue a refund. This is before they investigated it. I refused and asked for the case to proceed instead. I made a strong case as to why the complaint was invalid. Ebay found in the buyers favour as they do in every single case. I received the box of screws and ebay gave him the purchase money back and took the money from my bank account by direct debit via paypal.

I complained that I had received a box of screws and ebay told me "the case is closed"

In a similar but separate case some time after I was ****ed over by ebay, they decided to close the account of the buyer who had made a claim against me and had been refunded. They removed the negative feedback he left me - they actually removed all feedback received and left by him from the system.

However, although they had clearly decided that after multiple claims that he was a fraudster, and that they were removing his account, they did not refund me the money they took from me to give to him.

With all due respect I think you are bit naive about fraud and the percentage of people who are quite wiling to carry out these small frauds without a second though.

I agree that my eBay problem situations, no way compare to the fraud that you experienced, and I am glad that I became aware of what could have happen to me. I am glad you shared your experience with eBay with us; so we can learn from it. I definitely will be more cautious, but to date I have been satisfied with merchandise that bought on eBay and I have been satisfied with the outcomes of the few problems that I encountered with a few eBay sellers.

 

[Daud]

The buyer opened a case and 3 minutes later, it was decided in his favor. I didn't and apparently have not at this stage a way to present my case.
Searching ebay support section, I found what apparently represents their policy
"In instances where a buyer opens a return for the wrong reason, we ask that you take ownership of the transaction and work with them on a return as well as cover the cost of return shipping to provide the best experience possible for your customer."
In: http://community.ebay.com/t5/Shippi...D-claim-Is-there-no-end-to-this/td-p/26205721

 

[_Kiki_]

So the buyer opened dispute on eBay after 30 days and won the case ?

 

[Daud]

So the buyer opened dispute on eBay after 30 days and won the case ?

Correct.

 

[_Kiki_]

Did you had a option to close dispute earlier ?

 

[madrich]

Did you had a option to close dispute earlier ?

He inadvertently clicked "accepted return" of the merchandise, but did not provide the prepaid shipping label. This I believe compromised his position on this issue, and that's probably why PayPal reacted so fast against the seller.

 

[_Kiki_]

He inadvertently clicked "accepted return" of the merchandise, but did not provide the prepaid shipping label. This I believe compromised his position on this issue, and that's probably why PayPal reacted so fast against the seller.

that was a big mistake

 

[madrich]

that was a big mistake

Another thing that could have helped protect the seller is that he should have extended the initial Apple Care warranty, and then placed it for sale on eBay. Selling with the Apple warranty should have prevented the buyer from opening the computer because it would automatically void the warranty. When the computer stopped working, the buyer would have taken it to Apple, and they would have fixed it or rejected warranty repair. With Apple involved maybe this situation would be a different story.
[doublepost=1504363090][/doublepost]

The buyer opened a case and 3 minutes later, it was decided in his favor. I didn't and apparently have not at this stage a way to present my case.
Searching ebay support section, I found what apparently represents their policy
"In instances where a buyer opens a return for the wrong reason, we ask that you take ownership of the transaction and work with them on a return as well as cover the cost of return shipping to provide the best experience possible for your customer."
In: http://community.ebay.com/t5/Shippi...D-claim-Is-there-no-end-to-this/td-p/26205721

If you have a Facebook account, you can contact PayPal there, and present your story and pictures as you did here, on Macrumors.

 

[Sedulous]

The buyer opened a case and 3 minutes later, it was decided in his favor. I didn't and apparently have not at this stage a way to present my case.
Searching ebay support section, I found what apparently represents their policy
"In instances where a buyer opens a return for the wrong reason, we ask that you take ownership of the transaction and work with them on a return as well as cover the cost of return shipping to provide the best experience possible for your customer."
In: http://community.ebay.com/t5/Shippi...D-claim-Is-there-no-end-to-this/td-p/26205721

That is really unfair. Your images show that it was liquid damaged (it is not leaked electrolyte for certain... the DC board does not have electrolytic capacitors... the "green stuff" is caused by salts). The liquid damage is located on a board that is separate from the main logic board and is largely responsible for sending power to the computer. If it is damaged, computer will work from battery but will not accept power from AC power adapter. If buyer is claiming that "it worked" for 30 days, either the buyer lied about it working or you somehow managed to charge the battery through the dead DC board, shipped it, and it worked off battery for a month for the buyer until needing to be charged. While the MacBook Air has impressive battery endurance... nothing runs on battery that incredibly long. The only realistic explaination is that buyer spilled stuff on the computer and is now trying to avoid responsibility.

The key point is that the damaged component would not prevent computer from powering on but computer would not be able to run off power adapter, unable to charge, and the left USB port and speaker might not work. It would seem unlikely buyer would have taken a month to notice these defects. This leads to the logical conclusion that buyer caused damage.

 

[madrich]

That is really unfair. Your images show that it was liquid damaged (it is not leaked electrolyte for certain... the DC board does not have electrolytic capacitors... the "green stuff" is caused by salts). The liquid damage is located on a board that is separate from the main logic board and is largely responsible for sending power to the computer. If it is damaged, computer will work from battery but will not accept power from AC power adapter. If buyer is claiming that "it worked" for 30 days, either the buyer lied about it working or you somehow managed to charge the battery through the dead DC board, shipped it, and it worked off battery for a month for the buyer until needing to be charged. While the MacBook Air has impressive battery endurance... nothing runs on battery that incredibly long. The only realistic explaination is that buyer spilled stuff on the computer and is now trying to avoid responsibility.

The key point is that the damaged component would not prevent computer from powering on but computer would not be able to run off power adapter, unable to charge, and the left USB port and speaker might not work. It would seem unlikely buyer would have taken a month to notice these defects. This leads to the logical conclusion that buyer caused damage.

I guess the question here is, How do you prove it? From what you described, it seems that it would take some time for the computer to stop powering on, when the battery actually died which should of occurred less than 30 days after the buyer received it (if it was already damaged.) or much later after it was damaged by the buyer. Afterwards, it would need to be repaired. The only thing I can think of is that the buyer upon receipt would probably register the computer with his Apple ID. Apple can probably provide that date, and that would show the date that the computer was still operating, Later dates would show computer operation if there were any subsequent iCloud backups or contacts by the buyer; if not then I do not how to refute the buyer's complaint; unless the seller hires an expert and PayPal will listen.

 

[davidoloan]

I think the buyer gets an email under these circumstances from eBay that says "you do not have to return the item"

 

[madrich]

I think the buyer gets an email under these circumstances from eBay that says "you do not have to return the item"

I think you are correct because the seller did not provide the prepaid mail label to the buyer, as instructed by PayPal. Unless the seller appeals PayPal's decision, the seller will lose the buyer's payment.

Note the irony below:

buying off ebay?
Discftussion in 'MacBook Air' started by verseafterverse, Nov 2, 2013.

Daud said:"Strongly disagree. There is now so much risk involved selling on ebay with fake complaints and scammers. The highest priced item I sold recently was....."

Hmmmm, Deja's Vu Daud's post! November 7, 2013 (above.)

Now:

Am I scammed by ebay buyer
Discussion in 'MacBook Air' started by Daud, Monday at 10:43 PM.:August 28, 2017

 

[davidoloan]

Thats human nature. I sold my old iphone at the end of last year on ebay after I swore I would never use them for selling again. Three scammers contacted me trying to initiate a fraud. I tried to prevent them from bidding, but was told it was not allowed by ebay. They all bid and a genuine very nice person bid in the last seconds, and I got lucky by the skin of my teeth.

Give the guy a break; he will be feeling bad enough as it is. You just have to chalk it up to experience, the cost to try anything will be more than the value. And Ebay and Paypal have no interest in natural justice. Its all about creating an illusion of a safe place to buy things, plus minimising costs in running "cases".

 

[Daud]

Did you had a option to close dispute earlier ?

Initially, despite over 30 days since receipt, a return request was opened (how that's possible ?)
There was not a dispute as such opened (and I did not have such option), I waited for one to spell out all the good advice I received here.
E.g. I did not notice the difference in the pictures, the brushes, the fact of of soldering iron, scrubbed motherboard and the implication of opened laptop, until we discussed it here.

The fumbled click on accepting the return happened when I was going through the options, some allowed return to the options and wham, the Accept did not. My mistake, albeit I feel it would end the same way when I read the ebay discussion boards.
[doublepost=1504380618][/doublepost]

He inadvertently clicked "accepted return" of the merchandise, but did not provide the prepaid shipping label. This I believe compromised his position on this issue, and that's probably why PayPal reacted so fast against the seller.

Exactly, albeit it was Ebay bot.
[doublepost=1504380938][/doublepost]

Another thing that could have helped protect the seller is that he should have extended the initial Apple Care warranty, and then placed it for sale on eBay. .

Interesting idea albeit it would cost some extra which I am not sure one can recuperate on sale. Over the last years, I get my laptop by some combination of good deals usually BestBuy (laptop on sale - school discount - up to 10% BB credit card) and try to sell it before end of the 1 year and it has worked for me.
For readers, the best deal for AC I know: https://www.adorama.com/acmd014lla.html
[doublepost=1504381332][/doublepost]

The liquid damage is located on a board that is separate from the main logic board and is largely responsible for sending power to the computer.

Excellent technical analysis, thanks. I was already pricing cost of a replacement motherboard on ebay (haha) or from China (comes around $350), received and offer for $150 component repair from one reader here. I think as a first step, I will take it to Apple Store and ask for diagnostics, verify my motherboard is the same (profiler screen grabs were even part of my presentation on ebay) and whether they would do the $300 flat fee correct everything and decide how to proceed.
[doublepost=1504381584][/doublepost]

. The only thing I can think of is that the buyer upon receipt would probably register the computer with his Apple ID.

Apparently he did not and lies about the warranty status as you can see his statement above. There was 7-10 days left on the warranty when he received it (I shoud have a screen grab of the Apple Support somewhere, now it says of course out of warranty)
If he checked, he decided not to extend and makes a false claim in the first sentence of his return request.
[doublepost=1504381691][/doublepost]

I think the buyer gets an email under these circumstances from eBay that says "you do not have to return the item"

Negative.

"We're sorry there was a problem with this transaction. After reviewing the case, we made a final decision in the buyer's favor.

Details:
Decision:
This case has been decided in the buyer's favor.

Comments:
The buyer has been asked to return the item to you. Once tracking shows the item has been delivered to you, the buyer will be issued a refund. If the buyer uses an eBay provided shipping label to return the item, you will be required to pay the shipping and will see this charge on your invoice."
[doublepost=1504381797][/doublepost]

Unless the seller appeals PayPal's decision, the seller will lose the buyer's payment.

It was ebay decision btw and I have no way to do anything at this point. What I lost (knowingly taking the risk proceeding to dispute) is shipping both ways and even the final value fees and PP fees)

 

[madrich]

When you go to Apple take some printouts of the story here. Sympathy, may help you get a better price on their repair. Good Luck.

 

[Daud]

Note the irony below:

buying off ebay?
Discussion in 'MacBook Air' started by verseafterverse, Nov 2, 2013.

Daud said:"Strongly disagree. There is now so much risk involved selling on ebay with fake complaints and scammers. The highest priced item I sold recently was....."

Hmmmm, Deja's Vu Daud's post! November 7, 2013 (above.)

Now:

Am I scammed by ebay buyer
Discussion in 'MacBook Air' started by Daud, Monday at 10:43 PM.:August 28, 2017

Wow. I was lured by a targeted Ebay offer of a reduced final value fee for listing 5 items
Another irony. I had the MBA listed locally on craigslist, no takers or only the usual "will you ship to my nephew" scam and the same day it sold on ebay, I got a real sounding local offer.

 

[_Kiki_]

Initially, despite over 30 days since receipt, a return request was opened (how that's possible ?)
There was not a dispute as such opened (and I did not have such option), I waited for one to spell out all the good advice I received here.
E.g. I did not notice the difference in the pictures, the brushes, the fact of of soldering iron, scrubbed motherboard and the implication of opened laptop, until we discussed it here.

The fumbled click on accepting the return happened when I was going through the options, some allowed return to the options and wham, the Accept did not. My mistake, albeit I feel it would end the same way when I read the ebay discussion boards.
[doublepost=1504380618][/doublepost]
Exactly, albeit it was Ebay bot.
[doublepost=1504380938][/doublepost]

Interesting idea albeit it would cost some extra which I am not sure one can recuperate on sale. Over the last years, I get my laptop by some combination of good deals usually BestBuy (laptop on sale - school discount - up to 10% BB credit card) and try to sell it before end of the 1 year and it has worked for me.
For readers, the best deal for AC I know: https://www.adorama.com/acmd014lla.html
[doublepost=1504381332][/doublepost]
Excellent technical analysis, thanks. I was already pricing cost of a replacement motherboard on ebay (haha) or from China (comes around $350), received and offer for $150 component repair from one reader here. I think as a first step, I will take it to Apple Store and ask for diagnostics, verify my motherboard is the same (profiler screen grabs were even part of my presentation on ebay) and whether they would do the $300 flat fee correct everything and decide how to proceed.
[doublepost=1504381584][/doublepost]
Apparently he did not and lies about the warranty status as you can see his statement above. There was 7-10 days left on the warranty when he received it (I shoud have a screen grab of the Apple Support somewhere, now it says of course out of warranty)
If he checked, he decided not to extend and makes a false claim in the first sentence of his return request.
[doublepost=1504381691][/doublepost]
Negative.

"We're sorry there was a problem with this transaction. After reviewing the case, we made a final decision in the buyer's favor.

Details:
Decision:
This case has been decided in the buyer's favor.

Comments:
The buyer has been asked to return the item to you. Once tracking shows the item has been delivered to you, the buyer will be issued a refund. If the buyer uses an eBay provided shipping label to return the item, you will be required to pay the shipping and will see this charge on your invoice."
[doublepost=1504381797][/doublepost]
It was ebay decision btw and I have no way to do anything at this point. What I lost (knowingly taking the risk proceeding to dispute) is shipping both ways and even the final value fees and PP fees)

when buyer opened case after 30 days on eBay (yes, the buyer still can open the case after 30 days), there is a close button available in options, and you can close dispute(request to return) without any risk, buyer will keep the item, seller will keep the money, this is not rocket science

component board repair for $150, I doubt, sounds too cheap
board from China it's a big risk

there is no flat rate repair from Apple if the laptop has liquid damage

 

[Daud]

when buyer opened case after 30 days on eBay (yes, the buyer still can open the case after 30 days), there is a close button available in options, and you can close dispute (request to return) without any risk, buyer will keep the item, seller will keep the money, this is not rocket science

component board repair for $150, I doubt, sounds too cheap
board from China it's a big risk

there is no flat rate repair from Apple if the laptop has liquid damage

I think there is still a risk of Paypal dispute after 30 days (up to 180 days). Yes no rocket science, but it was middle of the night, I could not sleep due to jet lag, I am returning Monday from Europe from a conference, I was trying to understand the meaning of the options given, and I believe the Accept was accepting right away, without Next option.

Component repair comes with 90 days warranty, but of course, replacement would be better. In this regard, interesting analysis of Sedulous above, that it may be not the motherboard itself damaged.

 

[_Kiki_]

I think there is still a risk of Paypal dispute after 30 days (up to 180 days). Yes no rocket science, but it was middle of the night, I could not sleep due to jet lag, I am returning Monday from Europe from a conference, I was trying to understand the meaning of the options given, and I believe the Accept was accepting right away, without Next option.

Component repair comes with 90 days warranty, but of course, replacement would be better. In this regard, interesting analysis of Sedulous above, that it may be not the motherboard itself damaged.

PayPal is different, you can call and explain situation, PayPal is much more seller friendly than eBay

only precise diagnose will tell you how damage is complex