Another case of brutal teen violence

[Eric Piercey]

update 27 March: The judge said that he was duty bound to give Harris and Herbert life sentences but that he would set the tariffs on 28 April.





http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/7291985.stm


Wow. The alpha kid apparently denies murder. I think in cases like this hard examples need to be made. These kids should all be locked up for 25 to life. They engaged and brutally murdered this girl and the guy is seriously messed up for life. Senseless. Where do they get these ideas? Anger I can understand, but what makes it even conceivable to behave this way? Someone needs to make a documentary about this.

 

[runplaysleeprun]

Wow. What savages. I hope they are not shown any mercy and are punished appropriately. They are young, but they're not that young...

 

[CortexRock]

You have to wonder about the mental state of someone who uses the clothes another person wears to decide whether or not they ought to be kicked to death.

Sad thing is, these little gangs of feckless, useless wasters for whom abuse and violence toward strangers is a way of life are increasing in number, and the UK's ability to deal with them is being constantly eroded by do-gooders who have no idea what it's like to have to deal with scumbags like these on a daily basis.

 

[Scubajay]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/7291985.stm
Wow. The alpha kid apparently denies murder. I think in cases like this hard examples need to be made. These kids should all be locked up for 25 to life. They engaged and brutally murdered this girl and the guy is seriously messed up for life. Senseless. Where do they get these ideas? Anger I can understand, but what makes it even conceivable to behave this way? Someone needs to make a documentary about this.

So many points to ponder.....

1) Examples need to be made - yes they do, but unfortunately the UK seems to be in the grip of a senseless tide of violence, usually perpetuated by mindless scum smashed out of their heads on booze. They are not angry, or dispossessed, they are just feral animals who slipped through the net of normality and went wild. I see them all the time, and have to deal with them on a daily basis. Examples in recent months include a gang of up to 15 youths who used to rampage on trains and attack people for nothing other than badness. Their petty haul of stolen goods was exceeded tenfold by the violence they used to inflict on people, including ripping the ear-rings out of a womans ears. Physically pulling them out - 11 of them received training orders and only the worst was sentenced to any time - 13 months. Great.
Another example: a station I cover on my beat is not to be attended for any call without at least 2 officers going, one of whom has to be male due to reports that local feral gangs want to attack/rape any female officer. it's a wild world out there.

2) 25 to life? Not in Britain. We have no supermax prisons or 3 strikes and you are out rule. We hide behind human rights legislation and fear of special interest groups who serve not the victims of crime, but the criminals. They'll be out in no time. If you don't believe me then look at the past - the Bulger killers were released with new identities and family protection, as was the accomplice in a killing of 2 young girls (Maxine Carr)

Wow. What savages. I hope they are not shown any mercy and are punished appropriately. They are young, but they're not that young...

They are savages. To be honest I can only think that they and their kind are going to have a scary world to grow old in....if it carries on then it will only get worse. Whilst the UK government taxes everything it can, ties the hands of law enforcement officers and wastes time on everything but the cause of the problem then a merciful relaxing time in jail is what the wee scallywag can look forward to.

You have to wonder about the mental state of someone who uses the clothes another person wears to decide whether or not they ought to be kicked to death.

Sad thing is, these little gangs of feckless, useless wasters for whom abuse and violence toward strangers is a way of life are increasing in number, and the UK's ability to deal with them is being constantly eroded by do-gooders who have no idea what it's like to have to deal with scumbags like these on a daily basis.

I agree. I would love to have a politician of high standing spend a real non varnished or polished actual month of real patrol duties in some of these areas which have been turned into s***holes because of these mindless animals. In 8 years of working on the beat in London I have had to come toe to toe with large groups of feral yobs only to be told by the newspapers and the do-gooders that such things are not happening.

My Dad used to tell me that there was an ancient chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times". Well, I do, and I do sometimes think that we are cursed. All the amazing things to do, see and learn in this world and these ****s going round kiling people for kicks. Welcome to modern Britain, where the brave are mistreated, and the weak cowards and thieves are lauded as heroes

 

[CortexRock]

I should probably mention that there are two police officers in my family, one of whom is my brother, so I get the full story, not the edited highlights in the press.

Scubajay - keep up the good work mate, this country would be going down the pan even faster if it weren't for people like you putting themselves on the line for the rest of us.

 

[brn2ski00]

Wow. That is terrible and my heart goes out to the victims and their families.

I swear on all that is Holy, that if I ever made it over there and found those punks I would give them a taste of their own medicine.

 

[forafireescape]

Where do they learn this hatred? It's disgusting.

 

[Eric Piercey]

There's nothing new about teen gang behavior nor rebellion but there's usually a central theme surrounding more violent movements, aka racism or drugs, or soccer. There's also nothing new about senseless violence. What I fear is there's a fad which involves rebellion against humanity. Shooting some stranger to be initiated into a gang is one thing, but stomping a complete stranger's face until their sex is indiscernible seems like it comes from another place entirely. Is stepping completely outside the bounds of basic human compassion the latest "punk rock?" This is monstrous behavior, and it needs to be put down swiftly. I can't believe even the most liberal of liberals can't understand this. There's a certain -order- that just has to be maintained typically this understanding transcends all political, economic, and social lines whether one's a mafia crime boss or a priest. Youth's stomping people's heads in for sheer laughs is a prime example. Letting them back on the streets for any reason just doesn't make sense. Whoever is behind this way of thinking, I agree, needs to be thrown into the pit with the dog as it's a complete failure of society.

 

[mactastic]

So is it a hate crime?

 

[Cabbit]

So is it a hate crime?

No this is a modern teen gang crime, that have no motives no morals and no cares about there victims.

 

[Abstract]

Being young is no excuse, and I hope their age isn't taken into account during the case. I'm sure it will be, but one day, kids like these will actually be punished for once.....


Anyway, I think the best punishment for these kids is a burning, but I think some people may frown upon that.

 

[Scubajay]

Wow. That is terrible and my heart goes out to the victims and their families.

I swear on all that is Holy, that if I ever made it over there and found those punks I would give them a taste of their own medicine.

I sometimes like to daydream about a day when someone does start dishing out some ****. When at work I like to think of myself as a bully for the forces of good and light. It's an eye opener to some of these turds when they get challenged and lose.

Where do they learn this hatred? It's disgusting.

It's not hatred. It's cowardice. They attack, as a pack, a lone target and feel strong because they destroyed something. It's a bit like that part in fight club when Ed Norton beats the crap out of the blonde guy and says something along the lines of "I wanted to destroy something beautiful". They don't hate. They are just pack animals who need putting down - and no, I don't mean riding round in a helicopter and blowing them away. They need grabbing by the scruff of the neck and having their noses rubbed in the dirt to remind them of their obligations as citizens, as humans even. I personally blame years of weak leadership by parents, schools, politicians and teachers. Endless figure chasing and PC claptrap where you can't say anything for fear of insulting someone has made a world where everyone is scared. Fear leads to lack of moral courage, and physical courage too, and cowards are both the victim and the exploiters of this.

What I fear is there's a fad which involves rebellion against humanity. Is stepping completely outside the bounds of basic human compassion the latest "punk rock?" This is monstrous behavior, and it needs to be put down swiftly. I can't believe even the most liberal of liberals can't understand this. There's a certain -order- that just has to be maintained typically this understanding transcends all political, economic, and social lines whether one's a mafia crime boss or a priest. Youth's stomping people's heads in for sheer laughs is a prime example. Letting them back on the streets for any reason just doesn't make sense. Whoever is behind this way of thinking, I agree, needs to be thrown into the pit with the dog as it's a complete failure of society.

It has failed. It is sad, and we fight on anyway, knowing that we have lost. But every now and then something happens and some of the light comes back. Good post by the way.

So is it a hate crime?

No. Figure chasing statistic hunters would label it so. It is Murder. All murder is the theft of life. Whether hate drove it is irrelevant. Labelling it a hate crime does noting for the victim, their family or you as a potential victim. What it does do is give a label to a weak cowardly scumbag who then hides behind it and then uses it to either get away with it or to profit from it. A trip to any bookshop with it's many volumes written by ex-criminal scumbags and murderers provers this.

Being young is no excuse, and I hope their age isn't taken into account during the case. I'm sure it will be, but one day, kids like these will actually be punished for once.....


Anyway, I think the best punishment for these kids is a burning, but I think some people may frown upon that.

They only frown until it happens to them. A Crown Court Judge in London was recently burgled, and strangely enough he became known as a bit of a "hanging Judge" for thieves after that - Necessity (and I suppose experience) are the parents of invention.

 

[Blue Velvet]

They need grabbing by the scruff of the neck and having their noses rubbed in the dirt to remind them of their obligations as citizens, as humans even.

Thanks for the laugh. Clockwork Orange.

 

[Scubajay]

Thanks for the laugh. Clockwork Orange.

You don't agree?

 

[Blue Velvet]

You don't agree?

Certainly not. And many elements of your posts make me disappointed that an officer of the law could hold them... but then again, I shouldn't be surprised.

Before anyone jumps on me for being a 'liberal do-gooder', I've lived in some pretty tough parts of London (Clapton Road), been homeless and been assaulted, and have been on the receiving end of some very nasty behaviour from people who in turn have been brutalised. And I'll tell who were the least supportive people in all of these circumstances: the police.

Get your own house in order.

Hide behind human rights legislation and fear of special interest groups

Legislation that is your duty to protect in between daydreaming of being a have-a-go hero. What exactly is wrong with human rights?

 

[CortexRock]

There's nothing wrong with Human Rights legislation per se, except that the purposes it was established for seem to fall by the wayside when you look at a crime like the one we're discussing.

Shouldn't the poor kids who got beaten up have had the human right to walk through a park in their choice of clothing without being picked on by a bunch of scum with nothing better to do?

I can't remember where I heard it, but the line "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" rings true.

In cases like this, the human rights of the victims are often second to the human rights of the perpetrators and that is undeniable. There'll be some social worker or 'responsible adult' saying "he's not a bad boy really, they just didn't have a youth club to go to" or something equally inane. Then they get treated with kid gloves by the legal system, and never really punished for ending someone's life on a whim.

 

[Scubajay]

Certainly not. And many elements of your posts make me disappointed that an officer of the law could hold them... but then again, I shouldn't be surprised.


You say this with a high handed holier tone as if policemen were all sadly flawed failings as people. We are not robots. We are recruited from the public and swear an oath to the Queen to uphold the values our country was founded on. Do you feel that a policeman should be righteous and saintly, and should be admonished for having a real opinion?

Before anyone jumps on me for being a 'liberal do-gooder', I've lived in some pretty tough parts of London (Clapton Road), been homeless and been assaulted, and have been on the receiving end of some very nasty behaviour from people who in turn have been brutalised. And I'll tell who were the least supportive people in all of these circumstances: the police.

Again - the police are recruited from the public. With that comes a list of flaws, among them rudeness, disinterest and some level of lack of support. But along with the bad apples (as you get in any barrel) there are many good ones. Most coppers believe that the service they give should be the one they receive. My own force's standing policy on dealings with the public is that you deal with people in the same way that you would expect your own family to be dealt with. I like this view as it means that I can treat all people with respect and react/escalate accordingly depending on how they treat me. For example: The other day a group of 4 yobbos decided that scaring the crap out of a foreign barman with threats of violence was the best course of action. I chatted amiably with them in order to achieve my goal (their ejection from the pub) and continued to do so until their behaviour got them all arrested. No assistance was given or offered by me or my colleagues to get them arrested - they provided that all by themselves. We (the police) were guided by the barman as to what action he wanted taking (the offences committed were sufficient to warrant our attendance but not an immediate arresting of everyone) and this is how all incidents I deal with get handled. Respect, firm and fair use of my powers, appropriate use of force and public involvement. I have the good fortune to work with like minded and committed officers, and I am amongst individuals who challenge cowardice - treating the public badly is cowardly as well. I treat my position as one of privilege and am somewhat amazed that you post a message to me that makes me out to be flawed in my duties.

Get your own house in order.

Nice. Well I try, and so do most of my colleagues.




Legislation that is your duty to protect in between daydreaming of being a have-a-go hero. What exactly is wrong with human rights?

Not a thing. They are the most important cornerstone of what we fight for. By not fighting for them we create a world where weak people do bad things to those that just want to to live happily as best as they can. I protect your right to walk safely in as many places as I can be in at once. If you tell me someone has committed a crime against you, then I have sworn an oath (which I take very seriously) to do everything within my power to solve that crime and see that you are allowed to continue your life. My issue is that there are groups of people who use the Human rights legislation (which was designed to prevent holocausts from happening) to prevent good citizens from seeing Justice done. I believe (through experience) that good people are made to suffer whilst enterprising greedy types use legal loopholes to try and escape their responsibilities. A case in point is where the 21/7 bombers are appealing their convictions on the grounds that they were asked too many questions as part of a process that allows police to question somebody when life is in danger. The fact that this may offer a possibility for a group of people who attempted to murder innocents on buses and trains to go free is irritating. I was at 7/7 and 21/7 and saw the horror the madmen caused. Should they go free because of a human rights "get out of jail free" card then YOU, as a member of the public will not have been served. The next bus they attack might be the one you are on.

A final point: I don't think I am a have a go hero. I am a police officer. I go to work each day hoping that someone who has been hurt, or had something stolen from them or any number of wrongs between evil and naughty committed upon them finds me so that I can try and fix it. I have been doing the job for 13 years and I have always felt that your right and desire to slag me off for romanticising what I do doesn't mean I won't still do it as well as I can.

 

[Blue Velvet]

In cases like this, the human rights of the victims are often second to the human rights of the perpetrators and that is undeniable. There'll be some social worker or 'responsible adult' saying "he's not a bad boy really, they just didn't have a youth club to go to" or something equally inane.

It's completely deniable because punishment doesn't work and granting others human rights doesn't necessarily mean it's at the expense at others. I've lived with former convicts; in all cases, they were screwed up long before they were teenagers. The causes of brutality and dehumanisation in English towns and cities go far deeper and further back than 'not having a youth club', many decades...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the indefensible. However, the psychiatrist's reports on the perpetrators will make interesting reading.

The other thing that irks me, is that crimes of this sort are often highlighted in a form of moral panic-stoking that only reflects a tiny percentage of reported crime in this country, and is usually done to further a political cause of an authoritarian bent.

 

[Scubajay]

It's completely deniable because punishment doesn't work and granting others human rights doesn't necessarily mean it's at the expense at others. I've lived with former convicts; in all cases, they were screwed up long before they were teenagers. The causes of brutality and dehumanisation in English towns and cities go far deeper and further back than 'not having a youth club', many decades...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the indefensible. However, the psychiatrist's reports on the perpetrators will make interesting reading.

The other thing that irks me, is that crimes of this sort are often highlighted in a form of moral panic-stoking that only reflects a tiny percentage of reported crime in this country, and is usually done to further a political cause of an authoritarian bent.

2 points:

1) There is usually more to the bad than a lack of facilities or whatever. I agree with you there.

2) I sense from the tone of this post that you feel that those in positions of authority seem to have a power crazed mindset. Of all the police officers I have met in 3 forces I have served in I have always noted that the power crazed ones were rooted out sharpish. As to the reporting of crimes: What you read in the metro in the morning and catch on the TV highlights are a lot different to what actually happens. If they actually reported ALL the crimes and stuff that happened of a night shift then you might be forgiven for thinking that the whole structure of society and freedom were collapsing around your ears. At some point you might have to admit that you don't have to worry all that much because people like my colleagues and myself are willing to engage head on with these idiots so you don't have to.

Anyway, A young girl getting kicked to death because she was dressed as a goth SHOULD be highlighted to out these pricks who think this sort of behaviour is acceptable.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3541433.ece

 

[decksnap]

Those *&^$ americans. It's all gone to hell over ther.... wait what? Didn't happen in America? Can't use this as an opportunity to stereotype their society? Crap.

 

[iMpathetic]

Those *&^$ americans. It's all gone to hell over ther.... wait what? Didn't happen in America? Can't use this as an opportunity to stereotype their society? Crap.

Ha ha! America FTW!!!!!




I hate it when people from the UK whine about us.

 

[Abstract]

It's easier to pick on America because so many Americans...^^*cough*......act so inappropriately.

 

[decksnap]

I hate it when people from the UK whine about us.

^^ Well that took all of five minutes!

 

[Abstract]

Funny thing is, I'm not from the UK. Not even close. I'm from the same side of the Atlantic as you two.

 

[QCassidy352]

They are just pack animals who need putting down - and no, I don't mean riding round in a helicopter and blowing them away.

I actually think that would be appropriate - as long as you could assure that you were only hitting those who are guilty of these crimes. I'm aware that you cannot guarantee no "collateral damage" in the real world, but if you could, then yes, I'd be for simply gunning these animals down.

I don't say this out of anger, although what they did does make me sick. Rather, I agree with Scubajay when he says that these "kids" are simply pack animals. When a pack of rabid dogs tears a person to pieces, you don't go try to help the dogs. You find them and exterminate them. These "kids" are simply rabid dogs that walk on two legs.

(Now flame away.)