Another Longtime Industrial Designer Leaves Apple

[CrysisDeu]

Not even close. Apple is not pitching clones to put itself out of business. This fantasy about design being paramount is unreasonable in today's world. Yes products should be attractive, but more importantly they need to the possess the performance and features that make consumers want them. Every company has some design engineers they are not that rare, just because someone personal team is mostly gone doesn't mean Apple doesn't have a lot of bright people working for them currently.

I am honestly not sure. I believe the influence one person or a small group can be projected across a huge company and be the deciding factor for a lot of decisions. Sometimes it’s one scientist making a new invention. Sometimes it’s one CEO implementing a new organization structure. Sometimes it’s one founder establishing a vision.

There are bright people who is good at their job, but they are not necessarily good at putting out visions and building for the future. That is a really hard task for the smartest of the bright people, and even they can be completely wrong. And having a group of smart people definitely doesn’t equal success if the leaderships’ directions are wrong.

 

[J InTech82]

It’s good looking, but it didn’t have to be a bulky heavy headset. It didn’t have to be a better Quest3. It could be DIFFERENT

I'm not sure if you understand how much technology is in the product?

 

[CrysisDeu]

I'm not sure if you understand how much technology is in the product?

See reply above

 

[Surf Monkey]

So you personally know Jeff Williams and his job competency? Just because he comes from Operations doesn’t mean he has no other skills.

Steve Jobs, in all reality, had no real “background” other than starting a business. But he had other interests and opinions on products. I don’t see how Jeff Williams is any different.

He has been the leader of the entire Apple Watch since launch, and he’s proven himself to do a pretty darn good job at leading product development.

You guys do understand that operations isn’t limited to bean counting right? These are guys with backgrounds in engineering, not “bean counting.” Operations figures out how to MAKE physical things, and how to design parts for manufacture. It’s not like they have no skill or taste in design. Looking at Apples design of their processes and production lines are just as meticulous as the products themselves.

They also just launched their most complicated hardware product to date and a brand new software platform with an entirely new UI paradigm. A new product that costs a whopping $3500. And the “bean counters” have taken over? It’s like the design/product team got EVERYTHING they wanted.

Seems like no matter what Tim Cook does, he will NEVER prove himself to the Jobs/Ive worshippers.

I don’t need to personally know Williams to see that he isn’t a designer. He wouldn’t call himself one either. The rest of your rant is not really relevant to anything I said.

 

[J InTech82]

See reply above

Oops yeah, that was a duplicate post. You're fast! haha *goes to read response*

 

[Realityck]

I am honestly not sure. I believe the influence one person or a small group can be projected across a huge company and be the deciding factor for a lot of decisions. Sometimes it’s one scientist making a new invention. Sometimes it’s one CEO implementing a new organization structure. Sometimes it’s one founder establishing a vision.

There are bright people who is good at their job, but they are not necessarily good at putting out visions and building for the future. That is a really hard task for the smartest of the bright people, and even they can be completely wrong. And having a group of smart people definitely doesn’t equal success if the leaderships’ directions are wrong.

In the last so many WWDC presentations have people come away with an impression that Apple has ceased innovating? IMHO it's not all about a single visionary or a designer involvement with a company, it's the way the whole company continues to maintain its relevancy in the technology world working as a team. Did any of the various people speaking in the keynote presentations seem like a Steve Ballmer?

 

[J InTech82]

I can reiterate what I meant.
For a good pair of AR glass, you don’t need full immersion, you don’t need digital pass through, you don’t need to run iPad apps.

An Apple GPT running on my iPhone and display critical information on my glass? Object recognition when needed without needing to pull out my iPhone? Notifications? Turn by turn navigations? Real time translations? Any of these use cases could have a huge user base. And the glass could be lightweight and could be worn 24/7
These hardware needs are choices because of the requirements, and I felt the requirement are wrong from the beginning, because the hardware needed for those can only be so small, and maybe for a long time

You don't need these things but this is what Apple chose to do, so it sounds like this is not the headset for you. People are loving the headset for these very reasons. We are not even in the first year of this tech. It will get smaller and more powerful as tech improves. They are allowing them to run iPad apps as a substitute until legitimate apps are available. I would say that is a pretty good trade-off at launch instead of only having a handful of native apps, don't you think?

 

[Surf Monkey]

In the last so many WWDC presentations have people come away with an impression that Apple has ceased innovating? I haven't. IMHO it's not all about a single visionary or a designer involvement with a company, it's the way the whole company continues to maintain its relevancy in the technology world working as a team. Did any of the various people speaking in the keynote presentations seem like a Steve Ballmer?

It’s important because that’s what Apple IS. A design company. They design software. They design hardware. They design experiences. That’s what they DO. Additionally Apple built its whole business on the back of creative professionals for whom the Macintosh was the ONLY valid platform for content creation. So when we learn that Apple no longer has a top flight design professional on their executive team, that’s notable and important. It signals a fundamental shift in the values of the company and many of us have seen the fallout compounding over the last decade.

 

[CrysisDeu]

In the last so many WWDC presentations have people come away with an impression that Apple has ceased innovating? IMHO it's not all about a single visionary or a designer involvement with a company, it's the way the whole company continues to maintain its relevancy in the technology world working as a team. Did any of the various people speaking in the keynote presentations seem like a Steve Ballmer?

There are a lot of brilliant minds, but let me give you an example.

There was one fantastic session from WWDC which teaches developers to not use a “introduce features” welcome page for their apps, but rather rely on good and logical app designs.

In the same year, Apple themselves added more welcome screens in their apps. A person’s brilliant idea couldn’t affect much.

Now imagine every App’s design need to run through a central design team. This will not happen

 

[CrysisDeu]

You don't need these things but this is what Apple chose to do, so it sounds like this is not the headset for you. People are loving the headset for these very reasons. We are not even in the first year of this tech. It will get smaller and more powerful as tech improves. They are allowing them to run iPad apps as a substitute until legitimate apps are available. I would say that is a pretty good trade-off at launch instead of only having a handful of native apps, don't you think?

Yeah unfortunately they only sold 200,000 units on launch day and so many people are returning it. Yeah I enjoyed it for a while, and so are many other people. Some are going to keep it.

But this isn’t really a good show. From the iPhone era after cook took over, it’s my first time seeing a massive return wave on a new product.

Yesterday I went to Apple store, the employee was like: oh we will help you return your vision pro after we help with that customer returns his.. Again, personal anecdote, but haven’t seen this before.

I don’t exactly know how many people want a lightweight glass, but I have to say a lot do find VP to be too big and heavy. And quite a lot, even in the forum, wanted a pair of glasses.

I want a good AR headset. I want it to do everything. I want big screens whenever possible. But there are more important things that limits how much it should do at the moment. Or else it’s just another VR AR headset that have struggled for a decade.

I am very vocal about Vision Pro wherever possible because someone from Apple might see it and find it reasonable. I want a good AR device from Apple so badly that I am not going to sit around and see where it goes in a few years.

 

[J InTech82]

Yeah unfortunately they only sold 200,000 units on launch day and so many people are returning it. Yeah I enjoyed it for a while, and so are many other people. Some are going to keep it.

But this isn’t really a good show. From the iPhone era after cook took over, it’s my first time seeing a massive return wave on a new product.

Yesterday I went to Apple store, the employee was like: oh we will help you return your vision pro after we help with that customer returns his.. Again, personal anecdote, but haven’t seen this before.

I don’t exactly know how many people want a lightweight glass, but I have to say a lot do find VP to be too big and heavy. And quite a lot, even in the forum, wanted a pair of glasses.

I want a good AR headset. I want it to do everything. I want big screens whenever possible. But there are more important things that limits how much it should do at the moment. Or else it’s just another VR AR headset that have struggled for a decade.

I am very vocal about Vision Pro wherever possible because someone from Apple might see it and find it reasonable. I want a good AR device from Apple so badly that I am not going to sit around and see where it goes in a few years.

You are not willing to wait? You realize that's how Apple products eventually turn out to be amazing. Sit and wait. The first version is always the tech demo of sorts, a sneak peak, while the next few iterations are the redefining products. Case in point, the iPhone, the Watch...these products were way ahead of their time when they came out but you could do very little with them other than the basics. Now they are products of their own, and selling in the millions.

 

[CrysisDeu]

You are not willing to wait? You realize that's how Apple products eventually turn out to be amazing. Sit and wait. The first version is always the tech demo of sorts, a sneak peak, while the next few iterations are the redefining products. Case in point, the iPhone, the Watch...these products were way ahead of their time when they came out but you could do very little with them other than the basics. Now they are products of their own, and selling in the millions.

You would be surprised on how voices on the internet affect product decisions. I will be waiting, but will say what I want as much as possible along the way to maybe steer some of the opinions and decisions.

 

[Realityck]

You would be surprised on how voices on the internet affect product decisions. I will be waiting, but will say what I want as much as possible along the way to maybe steer some of the opinions and decisions.

True you always have wait for some time to go by before finding that rare review/first look that addresses your concerns with real testing impressions. The recent AVP has some examples now for serious buyers to digest, but still way too much spin.

 

[brofkand]

Not even close. Apple is not pitching clones to put itself out of business. This fantasy about design being paramount is unreasonable in today's world. Yes products should be attractive, but more importantly they need to the possess the performance and features that make consumers want them. Every company has some design engineers they are not that rare, just because someone personal team is mostly gone doesn't mean Apple doesn't have a lot of bright people working for them currently.

Apple used to attract users with a premium experience and design you couldn’t get anywhere else. Now the main draw is so your chat bubbles are the right color for your friends.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Honestly I think this goes beyon ddesigners skills not being respected nor realized but more so with AI possibly being trusted to replace or suplant them.

Marketing and bean counters lead Apple now

Where have YOU been the last 12yrs?

Cook IS a bean counter, that's his KEY strength to Apple when leaving IBM. YES! Jobs reached out to get an enemy within the state lol. who recalls the middle finger at IBM photo of early Jobs.

 

[Data]

Apple is losing yet another longtime industrial design team members, reports Bloomberg. Bart Andre, who has been with Apple for over 30 years, is set to retire this year.

Andre joined Apple in 1992 alongside Jony Ive, and he is one of the last remaining design team members that worked with Ive to establish the design aesthetic Apple was known for during Ive's tenure.

Andre has been helping run the design team following the 2022 departure of Evans Hankey, who served as Apple's vice president of industrial design after Ive left in 2019. When Ive quit Apple to start LoveFrom, several of the designers he had worked with went with him, and since then, other design team members have departed as well.

After Evans Hankey left, Apple eliminated the Product Design Chief role and restructured the product design team under operations chief Jeff Williams. According to Bloomberg, some of the people on the design team are unhappy with being led by an operations person instead of a designer, and cost cutting efforts have also changed the way the design team operates.

Apple now has only a handful of longtime designers that remain at the company.

Article Link: Another Longtime Industrial Designer Leaves Apple

sinking ship

 

[ThomasJL]

I agree but who's left? Name one visionary at any company anywhere anymore.

Scott Forstall.

The GUI of every version of OS X from 10.0 to 10.8 (and most of 10.9), and the GUI of every version of iOS from iOS 1 to iOS 6, was Forstall's idea. Oh, and the original iPod OS was Forstall's idea, too. Based on all of that, who in his right mind would not realize that, after Steve Jobs, Forstall was the most visionary man at Apple? Oh, Tim Cook would not realize that.

Had Tim Cook been CEO of a company, and had Steve Jobs been working under him, Cook would've fired Jobs instead of overlooking Jobs's abrasive personality and realizing his visionary skills result in a net positive for consumers. If anyone doesn't believe me, then why the hell did Cook fire Forstall?

 

[CarAnalogy]

With the amount of money Apple has, I don’t understand why they would skimp on the design team. That team has set Apple apart from the competition.

I don’t think it’s just about money. From what I hear Apple is not actually the best company to work for. They seem to kind of expect you to want it for the honor and glory of working at Apple, not actually because they’ll pay more or give you more flexible hours or other concessions. They seem to have a problem attracting and keeping world class talent in this department.

 

[CrysisDeu]

I don’t think it’s just about money. From what I hear Apple is not actually the best company to work for. They seem to kind of expect you to want it for the honor and glory of working at Apple, not actually because they’ll pay more or give you more flexible hours or other concessions. They seem to have a problem attracting and keeping world class talent in this department.

Same from what I got from my friends as well

 

[Surf Monkey]

Where in the article does it state that he got money from his parents to build his empire? Is that why he got rejected by VCs for his PayPal idea until he pivoted the use case and why he spent almost his entire 200+ million fortune that he obtained from selling PayPal to make Tesla what it is today?


Like what?




It’s 100% based on what you said and did. It’s not an insult to state facts.



I guess you missed all the internal emails and code that were leaked that proved that Twitter censored people.

Elon Musk shows shadow-banning of conservatives no conspiracy theory

The free press should care about free speech. About transparency and fair play.

thehill.com

Of course the propagandists will say that it was just standard social media moderation, but for the people/organizations it affected,
it was clearly a form of censorship.

There are many examples of Twitter (and other social media platforms) censoring ideas, saying that they were conspiracy theories... Like the Hunter Biden laptop story that was suppressed which the FBI had a hand in, or the Wuhan lab leak theory which even New York magazine admits was suppressed (because it was):

How Twitter Cultivated the Media’s Lab-Leak Fiasco

A case study in the social-media echo chamber.

nymag.com

Sorry. I’m not interested in interacting with your warmed over rhetoric and dealing with your weird flights of fancy around what you think I said (but clearly didn’t.) You like Musk. Good for you. Evangelizing for him here seems like a pointless task but you do you.

 

[TruthAboveAllElse]

Lmao I doubt the designs still run through a committee. They are like college projects. The Human Interface Guideline was the first in the industry. And till this day, they don’t have a design system.

The camera bumps are not concentric to the curve of iPhones any more. It’s not like they are even designing anything new every year.

Design by committee is not a compliment. It refers to lack of leadership, and groups where the cohesive whole is not properly considered.

 

[CrysisDeu]

Design by committee is not a complement. It refers to lack of leadership, and groups where the cohesive whole is not properly considered.

Sigh, it’s still better than nothing right?

 

[iPay]

Hey congratulations on your retirement and thank you for many years of dedicated service. Enjoy!

+1
Also, can I help you carry your money?

 

[1129846]

I don’t think it’s just about money. From what I hear Apple is not actually the best company to work for. They seem to kind of expect you to want it for the honor and glory of working at Apple, not actually because they’ll pay more or give you more flexible hours or other concessions. They seem to have a problem attracting and keeping world class talent in this department.

Tell you the truth Apple is not the best company. I know quite a few a people in the tech industry and Apple is arguably one of the worse of the FAANGs level companies to work for. WLB is not great they demand a lot and they pay the least.

Amazon WLB is bad but they pay you very well. Facebook and Google pay better and both have better WLB. Netflix same. MS WLB is great and guess what they pay better.

Simple fact Apple on ones resume in tech is great on the resume but pay wise you deal with more BS for less money.

I know the retail and tech support side is even worse as I am just referring to the engineering and UX side of the house. I don’t know how their tech support side compares to other tech support side at the same level but that is a crap job no matter where you work so safe to assume still bad.

That being said if Apple offered me job software development today I would take it for the resume boost but leave after a few years for a better place. Now I am not actively looking for work and Apple is not high on my list of places I would Apple to for the above. It more would require Apple reaching out to me.

 

[Motorola68000]

So you personally know Jeff Williams and his job competency? Just because he comes from Operations doesn’t mean he has no other skills.

Steve Jobs, in all reality, had no real “background” other than starting a business. But he had other interests and opinions on products. I don’t see how Jeff Williams is any different.

He has been the leader of the entire Apple Watch since launch, and he’s proven himself to do a pretty darn good job at leading product development.

You guys do understand that operations isn’t limited to bean counting right? These are guys with backgrounds in engineering, not “bean counting.” Operations figures out how to MAKE physical things, and how to design parts for manufacture. It’s not like they have no skill or taste in design. Looking at Apples design of their processes and production lines are just as meticulous as the products themselves.

They also just launched their most complicated hardware product to date and a brand new software platform with an entirely new UI paradigm. A new product that costs a whopping $3500. And the “bean counters” have taken over? It’s like the design/product team got EVERYTHING they wanted.

Seems like no matter what Tim Cook does, he will NEVER prove himself to the Jobs/Ive worshippers.

Steve had a background from early age in electronics. Just because someone didn't go through formal education or a degree does not mean no background other than starting a business? Even as a teenager he belonged to an electronics club and joined 'the wireheads'. I've often wondered which came first, the term for the electronics group or from the film The Terminal Man in 1972. Ironically that expression is now used in futuristic terms.

Its not really valid though to comment about no background, when in terms of personal computers, it was the virtual dawn of usable personal computing as we know it. So he could hardly have a background in personal computers although he did work for Atari as a computer technician, aged 18, so they must have considered his background suitable.

I smile when I read comments about Steve from Atari employees Penny Chapler and Al Alcorn, where Penny is attributed as commenting thus about Steve when he applied for a job: "We've got this kid in the lobby, he's either got something or is a crackpot." History shows us he certainly 'had something'. Al Alcorn was alleged to have suggested that Steve would be cheap, so he hired him!

It should be noted that Al at Atari assisted Steve and Woz, often supplying bits and pieces for their venture which became Apple.

Your point on Jeff Williams and others is well made though, and not just Jeff, but others seemingly where they may be perceived as having 'no real background' but where they often excel beyond expectations.