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patent10021

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 23, 2004
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I've noticed that other developers are getting by with a MacBook for coding. I travel by backpack in Asia while visiting my company offices and IMO the MacBook Pro is very heavy when you have other things to carry. If I could I'd use an iPad Pro for coding but unfortunately in 2017 that's not possible if you need to use Xcode 24/7.

Even though the MacBook is capable I'm still worried about the slower performance of the i5 when using Xcode + simulator etc. So if it's likely that new i7 MacBooks will be released within a few months I'd consider waiting.

Any guesses based on chip manufacturers and Apple history?
 

chrfr

macrumors G5
Jul 11, 2009
13,637
7,184
I've noticed that other developers are getting by with a MacBook for coding. I travel by backpack in Asia while visiting my company offices and IMO the MacBook Pro is very heavy when you have other things to carry. If I could I'd use an iPad Pro for coding but unfortunately in 2017 that's not possible if you need to use Xcode 24/7.

Even though the MacBook is capable I'm still worried about the slower performance of the i5 when using Xcode + simulator etc. So if it's likely that new i7 MacBooks will be released within a few months I'd consider waiting.

Any guesses based on chip manufacturers and Apple history?
MacBooks can be configured with i7s now.
 

bodonnell202

macrumors 68030
Jan 5, 2016
2,535
3,322
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Be careful... i5 and i7 are just marketing names. The i7 available in the Macbook (a 6w part) will still be outperformed by the i5 available in the base 13" MBP (a 15w part) and both will be blown out of the water by the base i5 in the 15" MBP.
 
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ZapNZs

macrumors 68020
Jan 23, 2017
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Do you mean a i7 as in something with a higher wattage than the current MacBook's i7, which to my understanding is really just a more efficient i5 (and the i5 is, TMI, really just a more efficient m3)?
 

patent10021

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 23, 2004
3,517
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Be careful... i5 and i7 are just marketing names. The i7 available in the Macbook (a 6w part) will still be outperformed by the i5 available in the base 13" MBP (a 15w part) and both will be blown out of the water by the base i5 in the 15" MBP.
Interesting. So an i5 from a MBP would actually be awesome in a MacBook.

Did they legitimately crippled the i7 in the MacBook so the MacBook wouldn't overheat or something? I mean what good is an i7 if it's sshit?

In your opinion what processor could be legitimately classified as a big jump in performance for the MacBooks? For example a processor that even Logic Pro / iOS devs would be happy with as a portable system for quick work.
 

Bart Kela

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Oct 12, 2016
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The only significant performance you're going to see in MacBooks is between generations.

When Apple removed the fan in this product line, they actually removed the opportunity for large performance increases.

When the MacBook reaches a certain temperature threshold, the system will throttle down all processes so the CPU won't exceed a certain temperature. On systems with fan-based cooling, the system increase the fan's revolutions to deal with the excess heat.

So even if your 1.4GHz i7 MacBook has Turbo Boost to 3.6GHz, it won't run at elevated clock speeds for very long.

The MacBook is plenty capable for mundane computing, consumer or basic office stuff and the occasional CPU intensive task, but if you are regularly running Pro-level applications, then the MacBook Pro family is more suited for those usage cases.
 
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patent10021

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 23, 2004
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I can deal with not using pro apps on my MacBook but I would definitely need the MacBook for portable iOS development and it seems the MacBook will be ok for that.

Here's a vid with a MacBook Air 2017. Performs totally fine! Now I'm interested in iOS development on the MBA as well :)

p.s. I see they're offering the same i7 upgrade in the MacBook Air as the MB. Besides a better display in the MB the MBA is looking like a good choice too since it's cheaper and even lighter.

 
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maerz001

macrumors 68020
Nov 2, 2010
2,492
2,397
Depending on what u r programming, compiling the MB could be enough. What system do u use know and how is the CPU usage?
 

patent10021

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 23, 2004
3,517
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Using 2015 15" MBPr / 16GB / 1T SSD. Runs fine of course. It's too big and heavy.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,353
12,119
Interesting. So an i5 from a MBP would actually be awesome in a MacBook.

Did they legitimately crippled the i7 in the MacBook so the MacBook wouldn't overheat or something? I mean what good is an i7 if it's sshit?

In your opinion what processor could be legitimately classified as a big jump in performance for the MacBooks? For example a processor that even Logic Pro / iOS devs would be happy with as a portable system for quick work.
The i5 from the MBP would absolutely suck in the MacBook. Way, way too hot for the MacBook unless they downclocked it and undervolted it.

All the chips have pretty much the same core. However, they configure them for different power usage envelopes. The MacBook chips are supposed to run up to around 4.5 to 7 Watts. The lowest power MacBook Pro chips run up to 15 Watts but others run much higher.

Note though that a 4.5 W i5 for the 2017 MacBook is roughly same speed as a 15 W i5 from a 2017 MacBook Air.
 
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Maxx Power

Cancelled
Apr 29, 2003
861
335
Performance per watt is the modern metric of processor performance. All that wattage is waste heat as the processor is not doing any physical work. That means smaller form factors are stuck with lower wattage chips. Therefore, for any generation of processor architecture, power and therefore form factor size is the main limiting factor for performance. You should pick the size of computer that is your best compromise between performance and form factor. That is the general guideline. Of course, there are exceptions as you could pay more for a higher binned CPU of the same variety, but keeping these other variables constant, the main effect on performance is size, which controls the amount of power you can dump. There is just no way to squeeze 45 watts of performance out of 6 watts within the same generation of architecture and manufacturing process. Similarly, there is just no way to comfortably dump that 45 watts through the chassis of a Macbook. You are stuck with 6 watts of performance. That same 6 watts can get you more today than years ago and will continue to increase, although slowly. It may take many years of iterative refinement in CPUs to eventually allow 6 watts worth of performance in the future to be as fast as todays 45 watt chips, but by then, the future 45 watt chips would be vastly faster also and the demand for performance in software would have risen as well.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,353
12,119
Performance per watt is the modern metric of processor performance. All that wattage is waste heat as the processor is not doing any physical work. That means smaller form factors are stuck with lower wattage chips. Therefore, for any generation of processor architecture, power and therefore form factor size is the main limiting factor for performance. You should pick the size of computer that is your best compromise between performance and form factor. That is the general guideline. Of course, there are exceptions as you could pay more for a higher binned CPU of the same variety, but keeping these other variables constant, the main effect on performance is size, which controls the amount of power you can dump. There is just no way to squeeze 45 watts of performance out of 6 watts within the same generation of architecture and manufacturing process. Similarly, there is just no way to comfortably dump that 45 watts through the chassis of a Macbook. You are stuck with 6 watts of performance. That same 6 watts can get you more today than years ago and will continue to increase, although slowly. It may take many years of iterative refinement in CPUs to eventually allow 6 watts worth of performance in the future to be as fast as todays 45 watt chips, but by then, the future 45 watt chips would be vastly faster also and the demand for performance in software would have risen as well.
One thing to note though is that the performance of the 2017 m3 increased by 25-45% over the 2015 equivalent! (Depending upon the test.)

What does this mean real world (excluding GPU upgrades)? Well, IMO, the 2015 entry level model felt a little bit sluggish at times, but that sluggishness is gone in the 2017 entry level model.

Part of the reason though is because Apple is using a higher binned m3 in 2017. There are two 2017 m3 chips available, and the lower binned version is considerably slower. In 2015 they only had the one chip option at that tier, and it was slow.

Also, I'm happy enough because my MacBook m3 is more than twice as fast as my previous MacBook Pro (which was a Core 2 Duo 2.26 GHz P8400).
 
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patent10021

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 23, 2004
3,517
795
The main issue for me is weight.

MBP 13"
Weight: 1.37 kg (3.02 pounds)

MB 12"
Weight: 0.92 kg (2.03 pounds)

MBA 13"
Weight: 1.35 kg (2.96 pounds)

I didn't know the MB is lighter than the MBA. I'm Shocked. What's the point in getting the MBA then? I guess simply because it's cheaper for people who don't care about retina.

So based on that I only have one decision. Base model 13" MB for the win. I'm going to use it as a beater for zipping around Asia so I think I'll just pick up a refurbished one or one get it via my educational discount. Which ever is cheaper. I mean I cannot function with a base model 128GB MBA SSD. Who can get by with 128GB? I can't even get by with a MBP 1TB SSD. I carry around 3 external 2TB Seagate Slim drives. I will upgrade the MB to 512GB/1TB myself.

Then you have another problem. Lots of external USB drives but the new MacBooks only have USB-C which means more junk to carry around. Man Apple sure is making things inconvenient lately.


I'm looking at the Apple refurbished Gold, Silver, Grey MacBooks and wow are they cheap! For some reason the refurbished MacBook Airs are almost the same price.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,353
12,119
The Air is at the end of its life. They’re keeping it around simply because it’s cheap. The CPU is still a 2015 version, even after the last 2017 update.
 

maerz001

macrumors 68020
Nov 2, 2010
2,492
2,397
I will upgrade the MB to 512GB/1TB myself.

Then you have another problem. Lots of external USB drives but the new MacBooks only have USB-C which means more junk to carry around. Man Apple sure is making things inconvenient lately.


I'm looking at the Apple refurbished Gold, Silver, Grey MacBooks and wow are they cheap! For some reason the refurbished MacBook Airs are almost the same price.

U can't upgrade the MB SSD by yourself. It's soldered. As it's on the MBP. Not on the Air but as there is just OWC which sells for the same price as Apple...

So you have to buy your machine with desired SSD size from Apple directly.
 

ZapNZs

macrumors 68020
Jan 23, 2017
2,310
1,158
The only significant performance you're going to see in MacBooks is between generations.

When Apple removed the fan in this product line, they actually removed the opportunity for large performance increases.

When the MacBook reaches a certain temperature threshold, the system will throttle down all processes so the CPU won't exceed a certain temperature. On systems with fan-based cooling, the system increase the fan's revolutions to deal with the excess heat.

So even if your 1.4GHz i7 MacBook has Turbo Boost to 3.6GHz, it won't run at elevated clock speeds for very long.

The MacBook is plenty capable for mundane computing, consumer or basic office stuff and the occasional CPU intensive task, but if you are regularly running Pro-level applications, then the MacBook Pro family is more suited for those usage cases.

I agree the MBP is better suited to sustained processing, but the MacBook does a whole lot better than I expected. It'll run a single VM like a champ! :)
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,353
12,119
I agree the MBP is better suited to sustained processing, but the MacBook does a whole lot better than I expected. It'll run a single VM like a champ! :)
...esp. now that it has a 16 GB option. :)

The only significant performance you're going to see in MacBooks is between generations.

When Apple removed the fan in this product line, they actually removed the opportunity for large performance increases.

When the MacBook reaches a certain temperature threshold, the system will throttle down all processes so the CPU won't exceed a certain temperature. On systems with fan-based cooling, the system increase the fan's revolutions to deal with the excess heat.
Yes, our testing here with our 2017 models bears that out.

MacBook2017-CinebenchR15-m3-wood.png


As you can see, when I put my m3 on a granite table that wicks away heat better than a usual wood table, it maintains performance a bit better. Compared against the i7, over time they converge on performance. Near the beginning of the graph, the performance difference between the i7 and m3 is 5% but by the end the difference is only 2%.

Either way though the performance difference isn't much. A 5% performance difference is almost meaningless, and the biggest performance delta in this graph is 7% between the i7 and m3 (with wood table). This is halfway through the test, but near the end of the test the difference is less than 5%.

The good news though is all of the models lose 7% or less performance with sustained CPU workload, over 25 mins.
 
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Maxx Power

Cancelled
Apr 29, 2003
861
335
One thing to note though is that the performance of the 2017 m3 increased by 25-45% over the 2015 equivalent! (Depending upon the test.)

What does this mean real world (excluding GPU upgrades)? Well, IMO, the 2015 entry level model felt a little bit sluggish at times, but that sluggishness is gone in the 2017 entry level model.

Part of the reason though is because Apple is using a higher binned m3 in 2017. There are two 2017 m3 chips available, and the lower binned version is considerably slower. In 2015 they only had the one chip option at that tier, and it was slow.

Also, I'm happy enough because my MacBook m3 is more than twice as fast as my previous MacBook Pro (which was a Core 2 Duo 2.26 GHz P8400).

You also have to consider that the m-series of Intel processors are very young and are quickly climbing the initial performance curves through many optimizations.

The amount of power dissipated is the voltage through the CPU times the total effective junction capacitance times the operating frequency. You can not get around the fact that the instructions processed per second is directly proportional to the amount of transistors times the operating frequency. This means that to get more processing done, you need to pump more current. With each node size decrease, you are lowering the effective junction capacitance and thus less current per instruction processed. With better binning, you are reducing the operating voltage, all of which can reduce total power per instruction, or performance per watt.

No matter what binning you choose, you pay for the grade. The same bins that are lower voltage for the m-series, are probably binned for least leakage. The i7s of the 45 watt vareity have higher binns as well, those are usually binned for clock speed at some voltage target. Higher bins for different form factors mean different things.

That said, the perceived performance is a balance of load and capability. To project future perceived performance, you would need to understand where software load is headed as well as where processing capability is headed. The latter is an easier guess, a few percent due to architecture optimizations, a few percent due to clock speed increases and maybe some bigger gains due to new instructions like AVX2. The former is much more difficult to assess. The biggest thing around the horizon is AI. That is going to necessitate a whole different kind of thinking. For one, when AIs start writing efficient code (and they are working on this) who knows the fate of the consumer developer ? This is coming far faster than we can adapt.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,353
12,119
You also have to consider that the m-series of Intel processors are very young and are quickly climbing the initial performance curves through many optimizations.

The amount of power dissipated is the voltage through the CPU times the total effective junction capacitance times the operating frequency. You can not get around the fact that the instructions processed per second is directly proportional to the amount of transistors times the operating frequency. This means that to get more processing done, you need to pump more current. With each node size decrease, you are lowering the effective junction capacitance and thus less current per instruction processed. With better binning, you are reducing the operating voltage, all of which can reduce total power per instruction, or performance per watt.

No matter what binning you choose, you pay for the grade. The same bins that are lower voltage for the m-series, are probably binned for least leakage. The i7s of the 45 watt vareity have higher binns as well, those are usually binned for clock speed at some voltage target. Higher bins for different form factors mean different things.

That said, the perceived performance is a balance of load and capability. To project future perceived performance, you would need to understand where software load is headed as well as where processing capability is headed. The latter is an easier guess, a few percent due to architecture optimizations, a few percent due to clock speed increases and maybe some bigger gains due to new instructions like AVX2. The former is much more difficult to assess. The biggest thing around the horizon is AI. That is going to necessitate a whole different kind of thinking. For one, when AIs start writing efficient code (and they are working on this) who knows the fate of the consumer developer ? This is coming far faster than we can adapt.
I was just making an observation, that the 2017 is a huge improvement over the 2015.

Your original post seemed to imply that we are restricted by physics and thus the form factor would restrict performance significantly. That may be partially true, but nonetheless, the entry level 2017 MacBook is hugely faster than the entry level 2015 MacBook, in the exact same form factor.

Yes, the Y series is young, but that may be to its advantage in the near term. I'm not counting on large performance increases to the Y series in 2018 or 2019 vs the 2017, but then again I wouldn't be surprised if there were bigger performance increases to Y series compared to other series, in part precisely because it's a young line ripe for optimization.
 

Maxx Power

Cancelled
Apr 29, 2003
861
335
I was just making an observation, that the 2017 is a huge improvement over the 2015.

Your original post seemed to imply that we are restricted by physics and thus the form factor would restrict performance significantly. That may be partially true, but nonetheless, the entry level 2017 MacBook is hugely faster than the entry level 2015 MacBook, in the exact same form factor.

Yes, the Y series is young, but that may be to its advantage in the near term. I'm not counting on large performance increases to the Y series in 2018 or 2019 vs the 2017, but then again I wouldn't be surprised if there were bigger performance increases to Y series compared to other series, in part precisely because it's a young line ripe for optimization.

I guess that I did not have a definitive point to make in my original post. Just that the biggest hurdle to Macbook performance is its size. My point of comparison is between machines of a similar generation.

Back to your original question, we can and do have i7s in the Macbook but these are not up to par with other i7s. I think Intel purposely made this confusion for consumers to believe that an i7 is an i7, regardless of form factor or TDP. With effort, I am sure the newer stuff can get faster quicker, especially if AMD starts putting on pressure in this form factor.
 

estabya

macrumors 6502a
Jun 28, 2014
689
729
Just for the record OP I use a 2016 m5 MacBook and compile times for in IntelliJ IDEA and CLion are only slightly longer than they were on my 2014 13” i7 Pro. Definitely worth the trade off in portability IMO.

I haven’t done enough with Xcode to have an opinion.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,353
12,119
Just for the record OP I use a 2016 m5 MacBook and compile times for in IntelliJ IDEA and CLion are only slightly longer than they were on my 2014 13” i7 Pro. Definitely worth the trade off in portability IMO.

I haven’t done enough with Xcode to have an opinion.
Interestingly, the Geekbench 4 score of the 2017 MacBook Core i7 (8500/4500) is actually faster than the Geekbench 4 score of the 2014 13" Core i7 4578U (~7900/4100).

The score of the 2016 m5 is somewhat slower (6450/3400), but within spitting distance of the 2014 Core i7 4578U, and the score of the 2017 m3 is in between these two (closer to the 2016 m5).

In contrast, the 2015 m3 is way, way slower than all of these.
 

Mike Boreham

macrumors 68040
Aug 10, 2006
3,850
1,868
UK
Then you have another problem. Lots of external USB drives but the new MacBooks only have USB-C which means more junk to carry around. Man Apple sure is making things inconvenient lately.

A small input here is that the Samsung T3/T5 is a really nice range of credit card sized USB-C SSD storage devices up to 2TB.

You can also charge MacBooks from battery packs. (you can the 13" MBP as well but not MBA).
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,587
For OP, if you run Xcode and rely solely on the Simulator to test your code, then skip the MacBook.

At a minimum, you want the MacBook Air, but ideally, you want any random Pro here.

Yes, people (including me) are using the MacBook as development machines. Sometimes the only thing, but that's because we deploy and test on other things (I run my apps on actual iPhone and Android phones for one). Simulator runs very very slow on MacBook. It's a combination of a slow-ish GPU coupled with the constant need to scale the display that's doing that, I think. Until Intel steps up their game and makes the GPU in the MacBook significantly faster, this won't change at all.

Running an external 4K display is fine but you can tell very quickly that these machines aren't made for that. The 13" and 15" Pro from any generation totally outclass it.
 
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