Any other upgrades I can do to my G4?

Discussion in 'PowerPC Macs' started by paulwgraber, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. paulwgraber macrumors member

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    #1
    Hi all. Well I must say I have a pretty sweet machine now. 1.2GHZ MDD single CPU, 2G ram, 3 250G HD's, silent cool blue fans in my power supply, PCI airport extreme card, ATI 8500 AGP card. Plus it all dual boots into 9.2.2 and 10.5 with ease. It has been a hassle but thx to you all I finally got it where I wanted it. However, I now have the bug. I enjoyed doing this so much I want to keep doing stuff to it. So what other upgrades are possible with my machine. Note: I DO NOT want to lose my dual booting capability and my ATI card really zips my classic stuff and even 10.5 stuff nicely.

    So what upgrades are left for it? Or is there any?
     
  2. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #2
    More displays. :D

    CPU upgrade? I have a dual 1.8ghz Giga Designs cpu card. TV-tuner? When I'm done I will be driving 5 displays. I also plan at some point to modify my case so I can have two optical drives like the MDDs. Struck me as odd how the QS has two oval shaped drive doors, but only one bay. I know that the design was for a ZIP drive (which I have) but I'd rather have it be another optical drive.

    The only thing I want to do, but can't is upgrade RAM past 1.5GB.
     
  3. harrymatic macrumors 6502

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    #3
    Oh dear, the G4 upgrading disease has claimed another victim :rolleyes:

    Do you have a USB 2.0 card? Anything with the NEC chipset will work without any issues. Just avoid the really cheap ones and try to stick to a brand name card - Belkin made plenty of good ones. (The ports will only work at USB 1.1 speeds in OS 9 by the way)

    I also put a new dual-layer DVD burner in my MDD - the stock Superdrive was really slow and could only burn single layer DVDs.

    I'm on the lookout for a new graphics card for mine, but other than that all that remains to do is add extra cooling.
     
  4. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #4
    Agree with this. SIIG made some compatible cards too. I bought one in 2002 or so and then bricked my PC motherboard, so that card (dual FW/USB 2.0 by the way) has been through a couple of PCs and now is in my Quicksilver.
     
  5. paulwgraber thread starter macrumors member

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    #5
    What would be the fastest Optical drive I can put in my machine?

    Would a CPU upgrade interfere with my dual booting capabilities at all?
     
  6. harrymatic macrumors 6502

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    #6
    No idea what the fastest would be, but I'd imagine there's very little difference once you get into the territory of dual-layer drives. I think I paid about £12 for my Samsung drive, they're not very much.
     
  7. paulwgraber thread starter macrumors member

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    #7
    what would be a good cpu choice for mine?

    Also was thinking of getting a PCI sata adapter and replace my IDE's with SATA's. Big difference in speed?
     
  8. Intell macrumors P6

    Intell

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    #8
    CPU upgrades for MDD models are very rare and expensive. It's generally not worth finding one beyond an OEM MDD CPU.
     
  9. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #9
    PowerMac 1.8GHZ DP G4 Quicksilver <<<========= :D:D:D
     
  10. Intell macrumors P6

    Intell

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    #10
    Quicksilver ≠ MDD
     
  11. eyoungren macrumors P6

    eyoungren

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    #11
    True. :D
     
  12. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #12
    You can use two slim SATA Dual Layer Drives, one tray-loader and one slot and put both in the upper 5,25" bay and connect them to a SATA-PCI-card. I am not sure about the Quicksilver, but for the graphite Sawtooth etc. ones, you will always have to open the lower tray Drive, so that you can access the upper slot-in drive in the same bay. I have not tested, but I guess, using a tray one above the other, would not properly open the door and hang. - or you remove the bezel.

    IDE slim drives with a bridge adapter to ATA33, do not work in my Sawtooth G4. It will read, but will refuse to write. This is why I come up with the SATA-optical-Drive thing.
    This. A bit crazy, but: The ulitmate quiet cooling MOD would end in using a G5 case :D with lots of low speed fans and a fan controller with temp-sensors. You would have to cut the back of the case to put the panel of the fan-controller in, if you want to go that far. :D
    There is not much difference in speed ratings such as 8x or 16x DVD writing capabilities. The stock ATA-connector for the optical Drive in all G4 Towers is 16MB/s (ATA33).
    So you would want to use the cable:
    - for data HDDs you do not often use
    - for OS 9 on a HDD with non demanding applications.
    - or put the cable out and reroute a cable from one of the ATA66 connectors or a SATA cable to a SATA-PCI controller.

    Take a Dual Layer DVD-Drive that can read/write DVD+DL and DVD-DL DVDs. Do not use a used PowerMac G5 Superdrive, because it will probably only support the expensive DVD-DL media.
    You can search Ebay for DVD multiwriter. You can then get one good one for 1,-USD, because people will not use that search term so often, but people will tag their auction that way. (Worked out for me on IDE optical Drives, don't know how it is for SATA).
    CPU: as Intell said. Looking for MDD Upgrade is pointless. Just search for a broken MDD with a Dual 1,42GHz or Dual 1,25GHz CPU in it (Most often the PSU or Motherboard will be dead, but the CPU is ok). Swap that to your machine. Or search for a already pulled Dual 1,42GHz MDD CPU, which will be 10x costier. (The price experience is form the european Ebay platform. An Apple stock MDD CPU will be sold for 50-100,-EUR a defective MDD with the same CPU will be sold for 10-40,-EUR).

    SATA-PCI card, speed difference: I don't know about the MDD since it allready has two ATA100 ports. But what goes for all G4s is: take a 64bit or PCI-X card that will give you a 62MB/s over 35MB/s with 32bit-PCI.

    Use a big file or a folder with many files in it. Open Activity monitor and watch what it says about the transfer speed, when you copy the file from !!! the ATA-100 HDD to the other ATA-100 HDD. (Or, if you do not trust activity monitor, measure it with a stopwatch and devide the file size through it).

    Than you can decide, if it is worth for you.

    If you want to get (little) faster access times or cheaper, bigger and more silent drives for the ATA-100 places, buy SATA-drives and connect them with a SATA-to-IDE Bridge adapter. (big IDE drives have become costly and are sometimes noisy, though not generally).

    Avoid SATA-III drives (despite you like to try everything to get them working. Avoid 3TB drives on the SATA-connectors under 10.5, even if some say it goes ok. I have got it to work, with a Toshiba 3TB, SATA-III with AF, but I am not sure how long this will stay that way. Had masssive problems in the first place. File system corruption etc. Also, you will have to unplug the 3TB drives everytime you boot into OS 9. This destroys the file system and B-header for sure, as I found out.) The 3TB thing was just a try, because other had said, that it would work with no problems under 10.5 as a data-storage drive partitioned with GUID. I had other experiences.
     
  13. paulwgraber thread starter macrumors member

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    #13
    Would swapping out CPU's effect my dual booting capability?
     
  14. paulwgraber thread starter macrumors member

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    Dec 13, 2013
    #14
    In other words I have a used MDD DP 1.4GHZ. Can I replace the 1.25 GHZ cpu board with the Dual 1.4 and retain my 9.2.2 functionallity?
     
  15. Intell macrumors P6

    Intell

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    #15
    You can put an OEM dual 1.42Ghz in there and still be able to boot into OS 9.2.2 without a problem. Just make sure you get the copper heatsink. The aluminum ones are not able to dissipate the 1.42's heat well enough.
     
  16. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

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    #16
    Take the optical drive and cage out and put two SATA or IDE drives in the space that's left.
     
  17. gavinstubbs09 macrumors 65816

    gavinstubbs09

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    #17
    You seem to put a hard drive anywhere and everywhere possible :D
     
  18. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

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    #18
    :D:D:D

    I have this thing about needing as much space as possible. ;)

    Besides, after achieving my "dream" of fitting a terabyte of available space into my DA 466, I became "obsessed" with adding drives to my Machinery.
     
  19. AmestrisXServe, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014

    AmestrisXServe macrumors 6502

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    #19
    What part number is that card? I'm curious, but doubtful, that (because it is a SIIG card), that it may have 64-bit capability, primarily because it is also FW, but FW400 and USB2 are essentially never 64-bit.
    Isn't this primarily a problem with the integrated ATA host controller (or, at least, the ATA/66 controller, as the system has two ATA/66, and two ATA/200 channels)?

    I would think that a PCI SATA-II card (e.g. the Highpoint RR1740) would permit you to use 3TB drives reliably. HFS+, even under OS9, should have an 8EB maximum, and the RR1740 may support 64-bit operation. At the worst, I would expect it to see the drive as unformatted, so you would need to select 'Ignore'. (I do not recall that the 1740 is visible to OS9.)

    If you are 'obsessed' with adding drives, an eSATA RAID would be ideal for you. The Highpoint cards often support port multiplication, so you can possibly quintuple the number of drives on each channel.

    The MDD is essentially identical to my XServe Dual-G4: You can also add a second 1000bT ethernet card, if you wish; but again, 54-bit is the way to go, if you can find one, to be able to make a LAG that can actually provide 2000bT performance (although the integrated controller, and the PCI bus may have separate bandwidth, making this less important).

    If you watercool the system, you can OC the CPU to 1.5GHz; or you can OC it with air-cooling to 1.42Ghz, without changing the CPU modules.

    I would strongly advise against a multiplier greater than 8.5 with air cooling. In theory you could go higher than 9x with water-cooling, but I do not know what the maximum safe speed would be. You could probably go as high as 12x, with refrigeration, but that would lose your internal HDD space. Reliability above 1.5GHz is also very fallible.
     
  20. Cox Orange, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #20
    Thanks for the Highpoint hint for the 3TB drives. It would be worth a try, but I am fine with the drives I have now and will not further investigate. (It is also safer for compatibility reasons. I like to put the big drives out of my G4 and connect them externally to my other Macs. So that fact counts in, too. I have not fully tested my Inxtron sk3500 case with the 3TB and connected to a Tiger machine. That is still on my list. I happened to experience that Tiger would break the 3TB in external drives, also with a 4bay enclosure. 4x1TB, but Tiger would see only 2TB in JBOD, though it was connected via FW400. - This is why after the 3TB adventure, I have restricted myself to using 1-2TB drives.)

    I did a "proof-of-concept"-thing in another thread. :D Not my actual configuration.
    You have to download the pictures and put them beside one another. The picture was to big and I did not want to re-size it and write the labels new. :)

    Note the Boot drive is a 2,5" Drive laying on top of the case, the FW cable goes through the PCI-bezel to the internal FW-port, that leaves two external FW free.
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=18466972&postcount=22
    If I had put two additional drives in the optical bay, I would have had a total of 9 drives. :eek::D (Not sure, if one can put a 10th on top of the optical bay, behind the RAM, for heat reasons. But the DA and Quicksilver have that position free of RAM, right?)
     
  21. gooser macrumors 6502

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    #21
    someone suggested adding a usb 2 card. i have never seen any mac that would boot into os 9 with usb2. i'd like to see what the experts have to say.
     
  22. Intell macrumors P6

    Intell

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    #22
    It depends on the card's chipset. Some will boot, but the card will be seen as USB 1.1. Some won't boot at all or will only boot with the extensions turned off. Others will boot, but not see the card as anything usable. I know for most NEC chipsets it'll boot, but will only work at USB 1.1 speeds.
     
  23. robertdsc macrumors regular

    robertdsc

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    #23
    That is a sick, sick, SICK setup! LOL.

    My DA 466, Jeanine:
    [​IMG]

    The DA and QS both have the top of the drive bay free. I mounted a 500GB SATA drive with IDE adapter screwed to the original drive plate that resides at the bottom of the DA's free drive bays. The prongs that go into the slots at the bottom of the drive bay are latched into the case metal above the optical drive cage for a secure fit.

    It looks like you just stacked the drives on top of each other. Were they secured to anything? Four of my drives are bolted to the dual drive caddys that were available for DA and QS Macs. I only hit on using MDD drive cages later. The two drives on the left side of the bottom of the Mac are wedged into the case metal under the speaker housing.

    I stuck a 250 GB IDE drive set to slave in the Zip drive slot. The optical drive is a DVD+ burner that I rescued from a malfunctioning Firewire case. I plan on removing that burner and buying a USB 2.0 case for it and installing the SuperDrive I removed from my MDD Dual 1.25.
     
  24. AmestrisXServe macrumors 6502

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    #24
    No worries. I am rather certain that it is a Southbridge problem with those systems, and it may only affect the ATA-5 (ATA/66) portion of the I/O bus.

    One flaw with the Highpoint cards: They tend not to be usable as boot devices. I wish that I could suggest a 'perfect' solution for you, but SATA did not exist (in production) at the time that MacOS 9.x was still in use. Thus, the only HW RAID cards that I can suggest for OS9.x are SCSI, and you will not want to devote the financial resources to making a >2TB SCSI RAID.

    Are you not worried regarding thermal displacement, with nine mechanical HDDs in the case?
     
  25. Cox Orange, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #25
    First, nice work. Also, looking much cleaner than mine with all the cables. :D

    I usually only have the two ATA-66 Drives at the very right (my actual boot drives), installed in the metal carrier. The others are just stacked, because I like to swap them out often and got tired of the screws. Well, I know that is not a good thing. I guess this could even hurt the drives(?).
    If I would keep it that way often, I would probably mount them each to carriers. But then again, there are holes in the bottom of the case (stock) that get covered with the carrier. Don't know why Apple designed it that way, if they are covered anyway. There is, where your idea of using MDD cariers comes in, which I thought of, too.

    Also, I usually do not have all the drives in. This was just for this test (or, when I need to tidy up space and want to easily compare drive content and be able to copy files at double speed, other than would be possible, if I just used external cases over FW400. Also with these first Macs, FW400 seems to be very slow at write speeds, hence preferring putting them all in and connect them internally via SATA.

    If so, the ones on the very left under the speaker case get the hottest, which seems quite clear to me. But they only do, if they are constantly accessed. 6 at the bottom seems to be ok heat-wise, though. I also do not have it running longer than 8hours, when I do these things and some drives will cool down, when not accessed. Additionally and last, heat from one drive is equalized with the other, when one is not used, it then functions as a sort of cooler, taking the heat away a bit more quickly and above that, there is the fan.
    I also would not run this without the 120mm fan put in front of the PSU "intake". Look at the picture again, it is hard to see.
    As you say "financial resources" is what I am not going to invest in that OS-9 thing. I have files, I know I will need under OS 9 on drives <1TB anyway. What I wanted to say with breaking the B-header of the 3TB drive is: if I boot into 10.4 the 3TB is seen. Then I boot into OS 9, the 3TB is not seen because of the SIL3124 card not having drivers for OS 9. If I THEN, boot back to 10.4 the files system will be damaged and at first it will take a very long time, till disk utility can even see it, to state the error. 10.5 helps here, since after waiting a lot it will come up with the message "blabla, you can use the drive still, but do a backup asap." (or s. like that).
    So, although the card doesn't even work under OS9 it seems to be enough of a problem, to break the 3TB. (The Sonnet tempo 2port card, even damages the file system under 10.5, which is due to a restriction to 2TB, but then again, I wonder, why one can format it under 10.5 with the Sonnet card. The only save way is keeping it on the "PC" SIL3124 card with 4ports.)

    On the heat question. Yes, I worry, hence I do not really run it that way (never more than 6 drives, and usually only 4, or even 2-3). I, of course, not recommend doing this without any indications (e.g. SMART, which is not sufficient, I know) available for the user, what temperatures he has in there.
    [robertdsc: Do you get SMART temperature readings for one or more of the drives? You can use istatpro. Would be interesting to know, with your setup.]

    I even sometimes disconnect the drives or put them out (which is, as I understand not good for the pins, in the long run. Electricity loading up there, touching them ever so often, is another issue that may come to mind. Though I never had that issue). I tend to put out every drive I can, when I know, that I will keep it that way for a month or so, working on one thing. I even sometimes put out the second boot drive.
    As a precaution, I always put in the big 120mm fan in front of the PSU, when I use 6 drives over several hours. (Which is loud, because I just not use a specifically picked fan).

    You can see the temperature log in the linked post. (As thermal sensors I use the ATA-connected drives and two SATA-drives connected to a Macally SATA-card which is capable of giving SMART readings (which the Sonnet can't)).
    I plan to investigate that a bit more and try several fans, along using a better temp-sensor device. (If I ever get the time).
     

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