Any Vegetarians/Vegans?

[citizenzen]

At this farm ( its very much like Polyface, check my earlier post ), the livestock is allowed to graze, it isn't confined to anything, and it just kinda chills out, lives naturally, and eventually gets eaten.

Is there any suffering there?

Yes. There is.

When we raised our 1-2 cows a year they had ample area to wander around, plenty of grass, water, oats and hay and numerous apple trees that provided more apples than any one cow could eat. Yet still, if the electric fence went down, they'd push their way through the barbed wire fence and go trotting off down the road.

You say they aren't confined, but they are. Not confined would mean there are no fences, that the animals could come or go as they please. But just as we did, if the cow or pig or chicken escaped their set boundary, they were chased down, captured and returned to the confines.

You say "live naturally" but a cows natural lifespan is ~15 years. But cattle raised for beef will be lucky to make it to the age of three. They are not free to mate or to have calves, all that is controlled by the farmer according to his desires, not theirs.

So IMO, when you confine an animal and take away its freedom of movement, when you control who it associates with and its natural behaviors, when you end it's life violently when it's lived less than 1/5th of its natural life, then yes ... you have inflicted suffering on that animal.

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Meat is singularly the type of food that brings me the most joy. Don't get me wrong, I still like a good pot of barbecued beans, or an epic green salad, or a bowl of fruit, but there's nothing in this world food-wise that excites me the way meat does. Now, this thread is about a lifestyle that completely eliminates that.

It's funny, because I think of tofu, cabbage, broccoli and brussel sprouts in the same way. Want to see me really excited? Give me a package of buckwheat noodles and some nice, fresh brussel sprouts.

 

[skottichan]

I have a fun bit of inability to process most vegetables. Which kinda sucks, because I do enjoy the taste of most (I will die before eating beets, sorry mom). So without a handful of pills, I pretty much have to be a carnivore. I don't mind because I also enjoy most meat (not a fan of liver or fast food burgers).

I tried to be a vegetarian when I was 21-22, I was dating a girl who was a vegetarian and I was willing to give it a try. After horribly indigestion, and eventually a small ulcer, my doctor figured out what was wrong (I don't have enough of the enzymes to process plant matter).

I actually had a militant vegan scream at me and used the "meat eating is just like pedophilia" argument in a cafe I frequent. It was kind of surreal.

 

[The Doctor11]

Nope I like meat.

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

They say that dairy and citrus (orange juice is my trigger) can stimulate the production of excess mucus in your sinus cavities, hence sinus pressure ... and if you aren't careful it can evolve into a sinus headache or even worse a sinus infection..

I have also heard that a gluten-free diet will help with sinuses and allergies.

I had a sinus infection last year. Not fun at all. My balance was off to the point I had to concentrate when I walk. Also the scary feeling of thinking your going to pass out/faint at any given moment, fighting yourself from doing so non-stop. I'm the type that resists going to the doctor(except normal checkups) unless I feel close to death. I got paranoid and thought I might have a blocked artery leading to my brain or a tumor. Took me about a week to feel that way. Doctor prescription some decongestant medication and it cleared up.

I also experienced a similar scare before. Thought I was having a heart attack, turned out it was only gas. Chewed a bunch of tums and felt better.

Things like that make me want to eat more healthy before those symptoms end up being the real deal.

 

[Tomorrow]

It's funny, because I think of tofu, cabbage, broccoli and brussel sprouts in the same way. Want to see me really excited? Give me a package of buckwheat noodles and some nice, fresh brussel sprouts.

In that case you might find it at least mildly upsetting if a has-been 80's pop singer had likened your love for those foods to pedophilia. Or maybe not.

 

[citizenzen]

In that case you might find it at least mildly upsetting if a has-been 80's pop singer had likened your love for those foods to pedophilia. Or maybe not.

It might make me roll my eyes and lead me to think they're an idiot.

But it does beg the question ... what aspect of brussel sprouts and buckwheat noodles would be equated to pedophilia?

 

[Erendiox]

...I live in a pretty rural area ( about an hour and a half north west of NYC, used to work for Big Blue ), and when I mean I buy local. It means I go to the actual farm itself, where I know the family who runs it, and trust me. Its a small family owned farm, its no factory farming operation….

Well then I stand corrected - Looks like on the ethical side of things, you're getting your meat from a better place than most.

I like your hunted deer scenario the best though… I think that's the ideal way, both ethically and qualitatively, for meat to be procured.

 

[citizenzen]

I like your hunted deer scenario the best though… I think that's the ideal way, both ethically and qualitatively, for meat to be procured.

The problem with his "non-suffering" deer scenario is that it's a fantasy.

Is it possible to kill a deer instantly so there is no suffering?

Sure. It's possible.

But it's not likely.

I'd try to maintain some sense of reality when considering these scenarios.

 

[Erendiox]

The problem with his "non-suffering" deer scenario is that it's a fantasy.

Is it possible to kill a deer instantly so there is no suffering?

Sure. It's possible.

But it's not likely.

I'd try to maintain some sense of reality when considering these scenarios.

Don't get me wrong, I'm Vegan and I have enormous respect for animals, but I'm not on board with this thought.

Animals kill each other and die in nature. Trying to abolish suffering itself is a fools errand. We all suffer and die at some point in our lives. Suffering and death is part of a natural life.

Constructed suffering on a massive industrialized level (i.e. Factory Farming), on the other hand, is something we absolutely should abolish. That's where the aberration lies. There's nothing natural about what the meat industry does.

People seem to want to take the ethical high road so far as to say that to harm any animal in any way ever is unethical, but I think it's foolish to believe this. There's a balance to be struck.

 

[citizenzen]

Trying to abolish suffering itself is a fools errand.

You wouldn't make a good Buddhist.

Buddhists vow to end all suffering of all sentient beings.

 

[Erendiox]

You wouldn't make a good Buddhist.

Buddhists vow to end all suffering of all sentient beings.

I can only assume that you are Buddhist then.

I've always been intrigued by Buddhism, but it sounds like there are some fundamentals I wouldn't be on board with. I believe that without suffering there would be no happiness. Without the contrast, I think we'd lead rather grey lives.

 

[AustinIllini]

Don't get me wrong, I'm Vegan and I have enormous respect for animals, but I'm not on board with this thought.

Animals kill each other and die in nature. Trying to abolish suffering itself is a fools errand. We all suffer and die at some point in our lives. Suffering and death is part of a natural life.

Constructed suffering on a massive industrialized level (i.e. Factory Farming), on the other hand, is something we absolutely should abolish. That's where the aberration lies. There's nothing natural about what the meat industry does.

People seem to want to take the ethical high road so far as to say that to harm any animal in any way ever is unethical, but I think it's foolish to believe this. There's a balance to be struck.

I am not vegan, I don't eat grain at all in any form, but I can agree with most of what you say here. To whomever posted it before about cows, sorry about your cows, but honestly they would likely be dead otherwise. If we didn't eat them, it's unlikely the animal would exist at all.

Also, find me a vegan and I will find you a person with insufficient hemoglobin. I believe healthy veganism is possible, but it's certainly not easy and definitely not as healthy as once thought.

 

[G51989]

The problem with his "non-suffering" deer scenario is that it's a fantasy.

Is it possible to kill a deer instantly so there is no suffering?

Sure. It's possible.

But it's not likely.

I'd try to maintain some sense of reality when considering these scenarios.

When I go deer hunting? It is reality. When you shoot a deer in the head, or back of the neck with a .338 Winchester Magnum, it is instant death.

Large enough of a caliber so that if you hit it anywhere near a vital organ. Death is pretty quick.

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Well then I stand corrected - Looks like on the ethical side of things, you're getting your meat from a better place than most.

I like your hunted deer scenario the best though… I think that's the ideal way, both ethically and qualitatively, for meat to be procured.

Yes, I am not a fan of factory farming on any level. Though that is mostly because it produces an inferior product.

 

[G51989]

Yes. There is.

I would argue not, I don't view livestock as something that is sentient.

When we raised our 1-2 cows a year they had ample area to wander around, plenty of grass, water, oats and hay and numerous apple trees that provided more apples than any one cow could eat. Yet still, if the electric fence went down, they'd push their way through the barbed wire fence and go trotting off down the road.

I think that would be down to it just being curious on its limited level of thinking, I don't think it really has the ability to get depressed about being " trapped " on several hundred acres of land.

You say they aren't confined, but they are. Not confined would mean there are no fences, that the animals could come or go as they please. But just as we did, if the cow or pig or chicken escaped their set boundary, they were chased down, captured and returned to the confines.

I would argue you doing that livestock a favor, domestic livestock typically can't survive on their own.

You say "live naturally" but a cows natural lifespan is ~15 years. But cattle raised for beef will be lucky to make it to the age of three. They are not free to mate or to have calves, all that is controlled by the farmer according to his desires, not theirs.

Lets go with something domesticated cattle, do they really have free will? Or are they just a lower form of life? I think the latter, they don't really have sentiance in the way something like humans, or whales have.

So its not like a cow is thinking " damn, if I could only get past that fence and go to london "

So IMO, when you confine an animal and take away its freedom of movement, when you control who it associates with and its natural behaviors, when you end it's life violently when it's lived less than 1/5th of its natural life, then yes ... you have inflicted suffering on that animal.

Its very likely that a domestic cow wouldnt survive in nature, and live even less than 3 years before it starves to death or gets eaten by something.

Personally, I don't put the majority of animals on the same level as humans, so I have no issues eating them.

That's just me though.

 

[citizenzen]

When I go deer hunting? It is reality. When you shoot a deer in the head, or back of the neck with a .338 Winchester Magnum, it is instant death.

And do you always shoot a deer in those spots?

You never miss?

You must be incredibly skilled.

 

[G51989]

And do you always shoot a deer in those spots?

You never miss?

You must be incredibly skilled.

I have my own shooting range, I practice quite a bit. Because its fun.

And I only kill 3 deer a year, I have not missed the head since 2007, though if I did miss.

Easy fix, shoot it again.

Keep in mind, I shoot these things off the back of my deck, so the range is often very short.

 

[citizenzen]

Easy fix, shoot it again.

Well, there goes the non-suffering.

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If we didn't eat them, it's unlikely the animal would exist at all.

With this kind of reasoning, you could justify clone slaves.

We cloned them. They wouldn't exist if it were not for us. So we get to do what we want them.

 

[G51989]

Well, there goes the non-suffering.

Nah, just pull the trigger again, easily less than a second or two.

Beats being hit by a truck and power washed off the front. Trust me, I've hit lots of deer in my F350, and its a mess. I wouldn't want to be that Deer.

With this kind of reasoning, you could justify clone slaves.

We cloned them. They wouldn't exist if it were not for us. So we get to do what we want them.

There is a difference, a human is a high thinking being.

A cow is not.

Humans are top of the food chain for a reason, intelligence.

 

[EricNau]

I would argue not, I don't view livestock as something that is sentient.

Interestingly enough, an animal's ability to perceive and feel isn't dependent upon your view of its abilities.

If you're going to make scientific claims you need evidence, not opinion.

 

[AustinIllini]

With this kind of reasoning, you could justify clone slaves.

We cloned them. They wouldn't exist if it were not for us. So we get to do what we want them.

Thanks Ray Bradbury, but seriously, a cow is different from a human. I'm not making any other justification other than stating a fact. The reason there are so many cows is because we humans eat them.

 

[Tomorrow]

With this kind of reasoning, you could justify clone slaves.

Not really, clone slaves could survive without their creators. Domesticated livestock can't (pigs might be an exception).

 

[citizenzen]

Not really, clone slaves could survive without their creators. Domesticated livestock can't (pigs might be an exception).

Really? Looks like they can ...

The goat is one of the oldest domesticated creatures, yet readily goes feral and does quite well on its own.

Sheep are close contemporaries and cohorts of goats in the history of domestication, but the domestic sheep is quite vulnerable to predation and injury, and thus rarely if ever is seen in a feral state. However, in places where there are few predators, they get on well, for example in the case of the Soay sheep.

Cattle have been domesticated since the neolithic era, but can do well enough on open range for months or even years with little or no supervision. Cattle, particularly those raised for beef, are often allowed to roam quite freely and have established long term independence in Australia, New Zealand and several Pacific Islands along with small populations of semi-feral animals roaming the southwestern United States and northern Mexico. Such cattle are variously called Mavericks, Scrubbers or Cleanskins. Most free roaming cattle, however untamed, are generally too valuable not to be eventually rounded up and recovered in closely settled regions.

Horses and donkeys, domesticated about 5000 BCE, are feral in open grasslands worldwide (see feral horse).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_organism

 

[negativzero]

I don't have any problems being vegetarian. I once went to India for work for 1 month and all I ate was vegetarian. I do have a problem with veganism or raw food diets because they're not nutritionally sound.

Still nothing beats an aged wagyu ribeye steak cooked medium rare with a little blood and juice in the middle

 

[AustinIllini]

Really? Looks like they can ...

Yeah, if all the cattle that was raised specifically to feed humans was somehow set free, nearly every ecosystem in which cattle are involved would be severely damaged. I don't think you understand how many cattle are born and raised specifically for human consumption. Either way, it's totally different than slaves, but as usual, we can't argue with your extremism.

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I don't have any problems being vegetarian. I once went to India for work for 1 month and all I ate was vegetarian. I do have a problem with veganism or raw food diets because they're not nutritionally sound.

Still nothing beats an aged wagyu ribeye steak cooked medium rare with a little blood and juice in the middle

I don't have a problem with veganism or vegetarianism so long as said vegan or vegetarian consults a nutritionist regularly.

 

[citizenzen]

Yeah, if all the cattle that was raised specifically to feed humans was somehow set free, nearly every ecosystem in which cattle are involved would be severely damaged. I don't think you understand how many cattle are born and raised specifically for human consumption.

Nicely shifted goalposts.

First it's claim that domesticated animals can't survive on their own.

Then when that is refuted you switch the argument to "if all the cattle that was raised specifically to feed humans was somehow set free, nearly every ecosystem in which cattle are involved would be severely damaged" which is an entirely different argument altogether.

Is that what you'd like to switch the argument to now?

Then you assume "I don't think you understand how many cattle are born and raised specifically for human consumption".

What's that assumption based on?

It has nothing to do with my last post citing evidence of feral animals having the capacity to survive on their own.

I think you're reaching here. Shifting and reaching.