Anyone else uninterested in a 4K Apple TV at this point?

[cynics]

I think you missed my point, I was talking about latency, not whether gigabit was necessary for streaming. I just don't like watching the spinning wheel while my movie loads - and this happens with standard definition content. Also try "rewinding" or scrubbing, the ATV can't keep up and the screen goes black.

This does not happen when I access the same iTunes server with home sharing from my Mini or Macbook Air, movies start instantly and scrub smoothly. But I was also talking about the ATV3, which is what I have. It may be a little better on the ATV4 if you use 802.11ac wifi instead of the 100baseT ethernet.

I understand what you are saying just don't see why you would experience such a noticeable difference.

The difference in latency on an AppleTV shouldn't be discernible between 100 and 1000base-t, or at least I wouldn't think so. Latency will increase with large packet sizes on 100 vs 1000 however we are dealing with standards here so its likely 1500. I wouldn't think the latency difference would be anymore than 1ms.



EDIT: Looks like I was wrong. Appears to be ~1.5ms

Out of curiosity I just pinged things on my local network to compare. Ping sent from iMac on 802.11ac with good signal strength through AirPort Extreme to AppleTV (10/100base-t and 802.11ac wifi) and NAS (1000base-t). Ping count was set to 10 for reasonable sample size.

AppleTV Ethernet 10/100base-t

AppleTV Wifi 802.11ac

NAS 1000base-t

Getting off topic a bit but there isn't much of a difference between ethernet and wifi when it comes to the AppleTV. And with higher throughput of wifi AC it might be a better choice for some, assuming you have a stable network.

 

[ignatius345]

Right now I wouldn't be able to use the 4K capability of any new ATV, as I just bought and mounted a new 1080p projector 6 months ago. Where we watch (~15 feet from the screen), good content looks incredibly sharp at 100". I'm sure 4K would look cool and even sharper, but I'm not convinced it would be enough of a night and day difference to justify the $2K I'd have to lay out to get a 4K projector -- and even then the vast majority of what I'm watching is still only available in 1080p anyway. Actually, if I was going to shell out for a projector upgrade in the near future, I'd prioritize deeper black levels and contrast, vs just jacking up the pixel count.

I'm sure in a few years it will be a different story, but I'm happy to be on the trailing edge of this one.

 

[colodane]

No 4K TV here and no plans for one in the near future. So my interest in a new ATV would depend entirely on any other new features it may have and its price.

 

[bopajuice]

As long as Cox Communications sets data caps on their internet service, I have no desire to upgrade to 4K.

 

[danny842003]

Yes I'm very interested I want a new Apple TV but refuse to buy a new one in 2017 without 4k on principle.
I mostly want it for Apple Music and for photos neither need 4k but that's beside the point.

 

[akash.nu]

I have a 1080p TV which is working absolutely fine, not thinking about changing it anytime soon & that means not interested in 4K at all.

 

[afd]

Not at all interested in 4K, downloaded a few apps on my ATV 4 but BBC iPlayer and Synology DS Video apps are the only ones I use that aren’t on my ATV 3.v The DS Video I use for playing DVD rips and EyeTV recordings which are all SD.

 

[tanfan]

The best selling boxes have been doing 4K for years. No reason to buy an apple tv unless you need itunes.....they count on that.

 

[Marty80]

The reasons why I am uninterested in the 5th Gen Apple TV at this point:

1. Nothing I use at home requires a 4K tv e.g. Nintendo Switch, Full HD still works good for me.
2. Waiting to change my iMac to a 5k retina model when they bring out the rumoured new design.
3. No 4K tally at home waiting for the Sony A1 to come down in price or for the next gen oled TV's.
4. HDMI 2,1, ATSC 3.0 if that counts
5. Ultra HD content will be sparse on the iTunes store and expensive in the beginning.
6. I may not be able to enjoy 4k content, when i get my grubby hands on that new shiny iPhone 8.
7. Finally there is the question whether or not Apple will be able to deliver movies to take full advantage of the 4k resolution.

For all these reasons I prefer to stick it out with my fourth gen Apple TV.

 

[Robnsn2015]

I have no reason to replace my 4th generation Apple TV. But I have a 3rd generation in my bedroom that's long in the tooth. Depending on what non 4K features the 5th generation has, I might buy it to replace the 3rd gen.

 

[MrXiro]

Why do you wonder about that? You can't upgrade your standard definition to high definition now.

They upgraded previous SD purchases to HD at no additional cost. So if they continue the pattern then they would update all your previous purchases to 4K. Besides the extra bandwidth which I'm sure Apple has the infrastructure already in place to accommodate there is no additional cost for them to provide you the best quality videos.

 

[AFEPPL]

I understand what you are saying just don't see why you would experience such a noticeable difference.

The difference in latency on an AppleTV shouldn't be discernible between 100 and 1000base-t, or at least I wouldn't think so. Latency will increase with large packet sizes on 100 vs 1000 however we are dealing with standards here so its likely 1500. I wouldn't think the latency difference would be anymore than 1ms.



EDIT: Looks like I was wrong. Appears to be ~1.5ms

Out of curiosity I just pinged things on my local network to compare. Ping sent from iMac on 802.11ac with good signal strength through AirPort Extreme to AppleTV (10/100base-t and 802.11ac wifi) and NAS (1000base-t). Ping count was set to 10 for reasonable sample size.

AppleTV Ethernet 10/100base-t

View attachment 715347

AppleTV Wifi 802.11ac

View attachment 715350

NAS 1000base-t

View attachment 715349

Getting off topic a bit but there isn't much of a difference between ethernet and wifi when it comes to the AppleTV. And with higher throughput of wifi AC it might be a better choice for some, assuming you have a stable network.

There's a huge difference between the two if you start to push data not just small packets. Wifi is subject to noise and much more interference from other electronic devices. Streaming a 1080P moving from your mac to the ATV will show this.

I run 6 ATVs and it's just not possible to do that over wifi, so I ended up with a 10Gbe backbone and 1Gbe to each room for local distribution.

Try moving 2 or 3 large BR rips at the same time over wifi then try the same on Ethernet...

I'm not going back to wifi stutters.
More devices more you see it.

 

[Boyd01]

They upgraded previous SD purchases to HD at no additional cost.

I was not aware of this and don't see any way to do it. Just re-downloaded one of my SD purchases from iCloud that is also available in HD. The new one is still standard definition. If this is possible, please explain how because I have a bunch of SD movies I'd like to upgrade.

Here's a previous thread on this topic that says SD movies can't be upgraded, you should also post the upgrade procedure there: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/itunes-upgrade-sd-to-hd.1796671/

 

[Rigby]

They upgraded previous SD purchases to HD at no additional cost.

I wish. They only upgraded their old 720p HD to 1080p. SD purchases cannot be upgraded at all without re-buying the movie at full price.

Besides the extra bandwidth which I'm sure Apple has the infrastructure already in place to accommodate there is no additional cost for them to provide you the best quality videos.

By that logic you could demand that 4K Blu-rays should cost the same as a DVD since pressing the discs costs about the same.

 

[Boyd01]

By that logic you could demand that 4K Blu-rays should cost the same as a DVD since pressing the discs costs about the same.

I agree, it wouldn't make a very good business model for Apple. Why would anyone buy the HD version if they could just buy the SD version and upgrade for free? And why buy the 4k version if you could upgrade from HD for free?

So, for their trouble, Apple would get millions of people upgrading their old movies and see a huge increase in the load on their servers, all for nothing.
[doublepost=1504386289][/doublepost]

there is no additional cost for them to provide you the best quality videos.

I hope Apple hires you to roll out their 4k content so we can all upgrade for free! But I haven't seen much evidence of them operating like a charity in the past.

 

[MrXiro]

I wish. They only upgraded their old 720p HD to 1080p. SD purchases cannot be upgraded at all without re-buying the movie at full price.
By that logic you could demand that 4K Blu-rays should cost the same as a DVD since pressing the discs costs about the same.

4K Blu-rays cost about the same as DVDs did in the late 90s about the same amount of time since they were released on the market back then as well as BDs were roughly the same price as UHD BDs are now from 2007-2010.

Maybe you're right about the 720p is now 1080p, every iTunes movie I have is from a code on a disc from 10 years ago or later. I guess I can't say for sure... but I swear that in 2007 they gave away SD copies as a free digital download when you bought a BD and every single one I have is HD now... not that I ever watch them. But even so... 720p upgraded to 1080p is a free upgrade in quality.
[doublepost=1504410532][/doublepost]

I agree, it wouldn't make a very good business model for Apple. Why would anyone buy the HD version if they could just buy the SD version and upgrade for free? And why buy the 4k version if you could upgrade from HD for free?

So, for their trouble, Apple would get millions of people upgrading their old movies and see a huge increase in the load on their servers, all for nothing.
[doublepost=1504386289][/doublepost]

I hope Apple hires you to roll out their 4k content so we can all upgrade for free! But I haven't seen much evidence of them operating like a charity in the past.

A. Not everyone will download the 4K version of every movie especially if they can stream from iTunes now and you conveniently forgot that these 4K files will be HEVC/.h265 which is 1/3-1/2 the size smaller than the equivalent 4k .h264 file.
B. It costs Apple nothing to upgrade your legacy movies to 4K copies... the only people it would upset is the production studio that is selling the 4K versions. But when it comes to digital copies nobody is buying the 4K version when they own a HD copy already and the studios know that.
C. It would actually encourage more sales of Apple TV 4K if they "gave away" the 4K versions for people who already owned the digital copies... it would not be a bad move since they don't actually lose money over it.
D. You think Apple's iTunes servers are little piddly things like your home server or your crappy little GoDaddy account? I worked at Sony Pictures in Home Entertainment from 2008-2010 working in digital distribution. You have NO CLUE how much data they can pass without any stress to their servers and this was 7 years ago.
[doublepost=1504411863][/doublepost]

I wish. They only upgraded their old 720p HD to 1080p. SD purchases cannot be upgraded at all without re-buying the movie at full price.
By that logic you could demand that 4K Blu-rays should cost the same as a DVD since pressing the discs costs about the same.

"I've found that older titles are in SD but newer ones are in HD. Apparently in the US, many older ones got a free upgradeto HD if you re-download"

From 2016 on MacRumors written by a staff member. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/purchased-bluray-digital-copy-always-sd-not-hd.1958391/

BOOM *drops mic

 

[coops]

It's not 4k itself that is important for me, but all the latest tv panels and better processing and hdr support is on the 4k tvs.

As far as the next ATV, its support for hevc and 23.9 framerates together with Infuse to replace Android boxes that I'm looking forqard to - and I would never rely on poorly supported Tv software -whether Android or other...

 

[jerwin]

. Actually, if I was going to shell out for a projector upgrade in the near future, I'd prioritize deeper black levels and contrast, vs just jacking up the pixel count.

I'm sure in a few years it will be a different story, but I'm happy to be on the trailing edge of this one.

Some 4K devices and media support HDR (High Dynamic Range). Rumors suggest that the ATV5 will as well. Of course. your projector also needs to support HDR.

it's possible that this video will allow you imagine the difference.

 

[Boyd01]

"I've found that older titles are in SD but newer ones are in HD. Apparently in the US, many older ones got a free upgradeto HD if you re-download"

From 2016 on MacRumors written by a staff member. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/purchased-bluray-digital-copy-always-sd-not-hd.1958391/

That is something completely different. The thread you referenced discusses free downloads that were included when you purchased a bluray disk. In that case, somebody already purchased an HD movie and got an free iTunes download as a bonus. This wasn't an iTunes "purchase" in the first place.

You stated "They upgraded previous SD purchases to HD at no additional cost." I'm still waiting for you to tell my how to upgrade my SD iTunes purchases.

 

[MrXiro]

That is something completely different. The thread you referenced discusses free downloads that were included when you purchased a bluray disk. In that case, somebody already purchased an HD movie and got an free iTunes download as a bonus. This wasn't an iTunes "purchase" in the first place.

You stated "They upgraded previous SD purchases to HD at no additional cost." I'm still waiting for you to tell my how to upgrade my SD iTunes purchases.

And as I said the only copies I ever got were upgraded for free. I'm not the foolish one who actually bothered to pay for digital copies of movies when they were given away for free with the hard copy at the same or cheaper price.

On top of that I was referring to pre HD titles on iTunes vs currently purchased one which according to a hundred threads that Disney did update for free a few years back and it seems like other studios followed suit.

Who would assume it was an SD title they bought last week?

*spikes mic down like a football

And the crowd goes wild!!!

 

[BuddyRich]

It really depends on the what the ATV5 can do (Dolby Vision/HDR and audio codecs) and its price. Ive got an old ATV3 on a 1080p TV but I use my built-in apps (Plex and Netflix mostly) on my LG 4K HDR OLED. We tend to rent on itunes because in Canada the rental catalog is better vs. other options (No Vudu 4K HDX here) and none of the built-in rental options on the LG (Cinema Now, Google Movies or Cineplex) support 4K or HDR. iTunes likely will.


I have long considered the Nvidia Shield TV... but its too expensive. Have also considered an XB1S for the 4K Bluray player which I don't have. It also has all of the streaming apps but I have no idea if the MS (Xbox) movie catalog is any good (or offers 4K rentals).

 

[MrXiro]

It really depends on the what the ATV5 can do (Dolby Vision/HDR and audio codecs) and its price. Ive got an old ATV3 on a 1080p TV but I use my built-in apps (Plex and Netflix mostly) on my LG 4K HDR OLED. We tend to rent on itunes because in Canada the rental catalog is better vs. other options (No Vudu 4K HDX here) and none of the built-in rental options on the LG (Cinema Now, Google Movies or Cineplex) support 4K or HDR. iTunes likely will.


I have long considered the Nvidia Shield TV... but its too expensive. Have also considered an XB1S for the 4K Bluray player which I don't have. It also has all of the streaming apps but I have no idea if the MS (Xbox) movie catalog is any good (or offers 4K rentals).

I just picked up the SHIELD TV last week. I would say it's worth it if you also have Dolby Atmos receiver too. It's currently the only streamer that allows you to have HDR 4k and the newest audio formats through Plex i.e. DTS:X and Atmos. At $200 with included controller and (albeit terrible) remote, it's on par with the pricing of an ATV 4 at HD resolution and a good wireless Bluetooth controller.

I think the biggest benefit to it as a gaming device would be emulation of old games and you can actually use it as your Plex Server instead of your computer.

I also got the Xbox One S last year to do 4k BD movies. IMO it's not really worth it at this point. I have all of 5 discs and it's a bit pricey to buy 4K BDs still. The Shield TV is the better buy to me because of the Atmos/DTS:X thing but if sound doesn't matter Plex is also very slow on the Xbox One S compared to other devices. Which is odd since it seems like it should be a powerhouse. If you just care about 4K content the XB1S isn't a terrible choice at the moment since it's kind of a jack of all trades but master of none. In a year or 2 we will see the stand alone 4K BD player dip to $100ish though I think.

 

[Rigby]

"I've found that older titles are in SD but newer ones are in HD. Apparently in the US, many older ones got a free upgradeto HD if you re-download"

From 2016 on MacRumors written by a staff member. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/purchased-bluray-digital-copy-always-sd-not-hd.1958391/

I have quite a few SD digital copies from that era in my library. They were not upgraded. Some studios were willing to give you new HD digital copy codes if you asked and provided proof of that you own the Blu-ray, but that's a far cry from what you claimed.

BOOM *drops mic

 

[LewisChapman]

I can confidently say theres no interest in another ATV in our household. After kitting each room out with one it soon became clear that everyone favoured the Smart TV built in apps because there's one remote and less waiting time!

Having a TV with Airplay functionality is far more of interest to us! The benefits of a TV with built in functionality/apps becomes even more clear when it's wall mounted and extra boxes just don't look cool.

 

[jerwin]

Will 4k airplay be supported?
That could be interesting.