Anyone Here Go to Princeton? Or any College?

[thegoldenmackid]

Thegoldenmackid gave you great advice, I would like to add a caveat though. College admissions officers see right through resume building, and definitely never join a club since you think it will 'look good.' Also, to suddenly join 20 clubs as a senior looks awfully odd, and ultimately will get you no leverage getting into college. It is fairly obvious what your intentions were in joining these clubs. As far as resumes, your resume is more or less built by now. A few things you can still try to do would be to get a summer job/internship or do some form of volunteer work, but as you are about to be a senior continue with what you were already doing and enjoyed, maybe try a few new things, and package yourself as best you can.

Good luck!

Agreed. To be clear those kids applying to top fifty schools had resumes that looked like this (they obviously weren't a list though):
-Student Council (Fr-Jr)
-Student Council Secretary (Sr)
-SADD (Fr-So)
-SADD Vice-President (Jr)
-SADD President (Sr)

You get the idea, I imagine. The only things that were on my resume only senior year were clubs or activities only offered to seniors.

fivetoadsloth, where'd you end might I ask? (Or should I just assume by your avatar)

 

[rhsgolfer33]

to be clear... the bachelor of business administration is offered by the professional school at the university, which is the same school one attends to get an mba.

What's your point? Technically an engineering degree at most of these schools comes from a different school within the university than an english degree, but regardless of if you go to McIntire at UVA (which, coincidentally, is not the same school as Darden where their MBA program is) or the College of Arts and Sciences, you still have University of Virginia on your diploma.

I'm not saying these aren't good programs. They just aren't usually recommended for undergraduate study. I will admit though that I am less informed about the business degree than I am about Law or the Humanities.

Who really cares what other's recommend when it comes to which degree you should get or what you should major in? Study what you enjoy and what you're interested in. If you like business and finance, go for an undergraduate business degree or economics degree and take as many finance courses as you can. If you like English, get a damn English degree. If we all worried about what others thought about a certain degree, we'd all probably end up with engineering or computer science degrees.

There are disadvantages to getting an undergraduate business degree, I full acknowledge that, but most degrees have some disadvantages. If you combine a business degree with a broad curriculum in the first years of study, you'll be just as capable of critical thinking as anyone else. Degrees, and schools to a large extent, are what you make of them; if you take advantage of your opportunities and work hard, you'll do alright with or at any of them. Ultimately, having the piece of paper with B.S. or B.A. on it is what matters the most, quite a few employers don't care much what its in or even where its from, so long as its properly accredited and you did well.

I'm an accounting major (graduate in May from a small school few have heard of and will be moving on to a well known top graduate program) and don't regret it for a second, but I also had a fairly broad curriculum in my first two years that allowed me to develop various other skills (and to discover that I enjoyed accounting).

 

[chstr]

What's your point? Technically an engineering degree at most of these schools comes from a different school within the university than an english degree, but regardless of if you go to McIntire at UVA (which, coincidentally, is not the same school as Darden where their MBA program is) or the College of Arts and Sciences, you still have University of Virginia on your diploma.



Who really cares what other's recommend when it comes to which degree you should get or what you should major in? Study what you enjoy and what you're interested in. If you like business and finance, go for an undergraduate business degree or economics degree and take as many finance courses as you can. If you like English, get a damn English degree. If we all worried about what others thought about a certain degree, we'd all probably end up with engineering or computer science degrees.

There are disadvantages to getting an undergraduate business degree, I full acknowledge that, but most degrees have some disadvantages. If you combine a business degree with a broad curriculum in the first years of study, you'll be just as capable of critical thinking as anyone else. Degrees, and schools to a large extent, are what you make of them; if you take advantage of your opportunities and work hard, you'll do alright with or at any of them. Ultimately, having the piece of paper with B.S. or B.A. on it is what matters the most, quite a few employers don't care much what its in or even where its from, so long as its properly accredited and you did well.

I'm an accounting major (graduate in May from a small school few have heard of and will be moving on to a well known top graduate program) and don't regret it for a second, but I also had a fairly broad curriculum in my first two years that allowed me to develop various other skills (and to discover that I enjoyed accounting).

you're right. If you enjoy business by all means get a Bachelors in it. But he wants to get a business degree as an undergrad from Princeton, which is not offered. And if one wants to pursue a career in law, the most common undergrad course to write is English (lawyers are prone to being verbose).

 

[OutThere]

Gotta say: I came away from a top 5 New England prep school with a mid-3 GPA, 2200 SAT, as an Eagle Scout and the editor in chief of a school magazine. I had no chance in hell at Princeton.

That said, I didn't apply to any ivies because I knew that for undergrad you can get a much better education. Even at the best large schools the focus is on research and graduate programs, undergrad classes are a lesser priority and are taught by professors who'd rather be doing their research or by teaching assistants. At a small liberal arts college I know my professors personally and my average class has had about 20 students, whereas I have friends at ivy league schools who have had enormous lecture classes with hundreds of students. Just a thought.

 

[itcheroni]

The OP should take a year off and travel before going to college.

I went to a decent undergrad and law school and honestly don't think higher education is worth the time and cost anymore. If you're smart, you should think of what you'd like to do in life and just go for it. If you want to start a business, just do it. If you want to be an engineer, then go to school. If you don't know, then don't go to school. Take some time to think about it.

 

[rhsgolfer33]

you're right. If you enjoy business by all means get a Bachelors in it. But he wants to get a business degree as an undergrad from Princeton, which is not offered. And if one wants to pursue a career in law, the most common undergrad course to write is English (lawyers are prone to being verbose).

Oh I agree, if they don't offer it, you can't get it, haha.

And yes, even if he decides to major in business as an undergrad with the intent to go to law school, he should take as many courses in writing and write as much as possible. Being able to clearly express your thoughts on paper (or into a dictaphone in the case of the lawyers I worked with) is important in any career (yes, even accountants have to write), but it is an absolute must for law school and working as a lawyer.

 

[63dot]

What is a minor in "law?"

Do you know what a "law" minor would cover? What is it's practical use?

I'm asking because I think what you're actually describing is a combined JD/MBA (which is offered at most schools, but it's very hard to get in, so be forewarned).

The only one I know of is the MBA-JD at my old school. It's almost a full MBA and two years of law school resulting in four total years which would otherwise take five or five and a half years if taken separately.

It's made for the business person who wants a good law foundation, but is not recommended for a lawyer who wants some business background. For that, there is the JD first, and a business related advanced law degree, called an LL.M (in securities, international corporations, or tax for instance).

My school has a three year JD followed by a very intensive one year LL.M but that four years is more brutal than the four year path of the MBA-JD imho. But if you are not that strong in math, take the JD and then the LL.M in a business related subject because finance, advanced accounting, and quantitative analysis (likely found in the MBA but not a business related LL.M), will eat you alive. If your math skills are stronger than your writing skills, then go for the MBA-JD as you should be able to handle the numbers. Not too many people I have met are very good at both on the graduate school level. By that time, you are either really good at one or the other.

To the OP: You may want to look into the possibility of a bachelor's in business with a minor in pre-law if there is such a thing. I know Chico State has a pre-law bachelor's program. Give them a call.

 

[thegoldenmackid]

The OP should take a year off and travel before going to college.

I went to a decent undergrad and law school and honestly don't think higher education is worth the time and cost anymore. If you're smart, you should think of what you'd like to do in life and just go for it. If you want to start a business, just do it. If you want to be an engineer, then go to school. If you don't know, then don't go to school. Take some time to think about it.

Not everyone's financials allow for that. Given this economy, going to school seems like a good idea.

 

[chstr]

The only one I know of is the MBA-JD at my old school. It's almost a full MBA and two years of law school resulting in four total years which would otherwise take five or five and a half years if taken separately.

It's made for the business person who wants a good law foundation, but is not recommended for a lawyer who wants some business background. For that, there is the JD first, and a business related advanced law degree, called an LL.M (in securities, international corporations, or tax for instance).

My school has a three year JD followed by a very intensive one year LL.M but that four years is more brutal than the four year path of the MBA-JD imho. But if you are not that strong in math, take the JD and then the LL.M in a business related subject because finance, advanced accounting, and quantitative analysis (likely found in the MBA but not a business related LL.M), will eat you alive. If your math skills are stronger than your writing skills, then go for the MBA-JD as you should be able to handle the numbers. Not too many people I have met are very good at both on the graduate school level. By that time, you are either really good at one or the other.

To the OP: You may want to look into the possibility of a bachelor's in business with a minor in pre-law if there is such a thing. I know Chico State has a pre-law bachelor's program. Give them a call.

you are talking about graduate school though. The OP still needs to graduate high school and then get a BA or BS before going on to grad school. I like the idea of a small liberal arts college mentioned above. It can be the best form of higher education in today's world. Many schools like Oberlin or Amherst are more highly respected than the Ivies.

 

[phoobo]

Agree

I like the idea of a small liberal arts college mentioned above. It can be the best form of higher education in today's world. Many schools like Oberlin or Amherst are more highly respected than the Ivies.

Yes, would much rather see my kid at Oberlin or Wesleyan than Princeton any day of the week.

Study business? Eew - that's so 1990s. Study something that is an end in itself, like English or Classics.

 

[miles01110]

Agreed. The kids at my HS who are in the Ivy's had resumes that were seven pages long, to start.

A 7-page long resume is a bad resume.

 

[Capt Crunch]

you are talking about graduate school though. The OP still needs to graduate high school and then get a BA or BS before going on to grad school. I like the idea of a small liberal arts college mentioned above. It can be the best form of higher education in today's world. Many schools like Oberlin or Amherst are more highly respected than the Ivies.

This is absolutely bogus. If you are at all serious about any subject, you will be taking graduate courses at the end of your undergrad career. The schools with the best graduate departments are the top universities that everyone has heard of.

Obviously, introductory courses are pretty much the same everywhere, but that isn't the measure of a good education.

I went to UVA and double majored in math and physics. The math department isn't particularly good, I think it's ranked 35th or so in the set of all math grad schools. I took a bunch of grad courses, 1.5 years worth, and I thought I was hot ****. Then I went to the University of Maryland, which is ranked 15th, and saw another level. The same level of classes were much more rigorous, harder, and covered more topics. I even had a taste of what Princeton-level grad math was like because one of my professors was snatched away from Princeton and didn't change the lectures. The contrast from UVA was completely apparent.

Incidentally, the hardest I ever worked at UVA was a philosophy class where, surprise!, UVA is highly ranked.

My point being, the top-ranked schools really are that good. It is important to get the subject right (for example, UVA is good in soft-sciences but not nearly as good in the hard sciences), but for the most part you cannot go wrong going to Harvard and the like.

Going back to the OP, I'm sorry to say but in this day and age it's really hard to get into top schools. I see people all the time with 4.0s, top SAT scores, and activities out the wazoo not get into top school. It's mostly a problem of grade inflation, making it much more difficult to separate yourself from your peers. The only way to counteract it is to specialize in high school (research, etc) but I think that's a crap thing to be forced to do in high school.

As a mild contradiction to what I said earlier, non-top schools generally aren't bad. They aren't as good, but you can get a great education at a school you've never heard of. For my subject, UVA was a non-top school, but I don't really have any regrets going there because it got me into a good grad school.

 

[ethical]

Then you can't rely on the school to hand you anything. Go out and actively seek it. One type of volunteer work I did was spend 3 years volunteering at a local Japanese garden. Easy peasy, and relaxing to boot. You just gotta go out and find what's in your community.

This^

I don't live in the US, but I'd guess they're looking for a similar sort of thing that they look for over here.... if you get handed opportunities on a plate and follow through with them then that's great, well done. You'll be doing what 60% of people don't do. But, if you go out there and actively seek your own opportunities, make your own calls, write your own letters, make your own inquiries, you'll be doing what 95% of people don't.... and that's what sets you apart.

Edit: I stopped reading after the post I quoted...so have probably missed some important bits.

 

[puma1552]

A 7-page long resume is a bad resume.

Not in academia it isn't.

Both my (albeit grad) schools wanted extended resumes, one in particular wanted a 4 page resume (on average), on top of a quantitative resume of unlimited length telling them "as much as possible" about your quantitative experience and foreign language preparation. Being a chemical engineering and chem double major, and having done three years of quantitative demographic research and proficient in two foreign languages, that resume was quite long, but they liked it.

Also as an aside, unrelated to your comment, it is also of note--when you get to grad school, it really doesn't matter where you did your undergraduate work--what matters is what you did with your time there and how well you did. While it may be true that a grad school admissions committee may be a little more lenient GPA-wise to someone who went to a top program in X field where coursework is known to be more rigorous, they will usually take the student who did better overall from a lesser-known school. However for example's sake, if *all* other things are equal, and student A went to Top Program A and got a 3.5 Vs. student B who went to a mid-ranked program and got a 3.8, both students will have a pretty equal shot since the committee will show a bit of leniency to students coming from known rigorous programs. People will disagree with me on this but I've whored myself to grad school forums and admissions processes for far too long to know otherwise. It doesn't matter where you go for undergrad, it matters how well you did and what you did (research, etc). Why? Simple--because education is about you and who you are, and more important than anything it's about program fit. You can be the biggest academic stud in the world, have all this awesome work experience and have the best numbers and personal statement, but if you don't fit the program and can't bring anything to the table for the school, and the school can't bring anything to you beyond a name on your resume, they won't take you.

EDIT: But anyway that's a digression that gets more into grad school so it's pretty irrelevant here I'll admit. OP, apply to Princeton, it won't hurt and you never know what will happen, worst thing is that you'll be out a bit of time and a pittance of cash in the grand scheme of things, but obviously you know to also apply to other schools. Good luck!

 

[gan6660]

Thanks everyone! Your inputs have been very insightful and have given me something to think about. Also Princeton is not the school that expect to get into and I am applying to others both state and private schools. Everyone has that one school they would love to go to but it's a longshot for them to get in, it's just like a car everyone has an expensive car they want be it a Mercedes or a Porsche.

 

[puma1552]

Thanks everyone! Your inputs have been very insightful and have given me something to think about. Also Princeton is not the school that expect to get into and I am applying to others both state and private schools. Everyone has that one school they would love to go to but it's a longshot for them to get in, it's just like a car everyone has an expensive car they want be it a Mercedes or a Porsche.

No doubt, nothing wrong with reach schools.

I'm currently sitting on the waitlist for grad school at an Ivy that I never thought would even do anything but throw my app straight in the bin, so there you go--it can happen, so good luck!

Remember when it comes time to write that personal statement--revise, revise, revise!!

 

[fivetoadsloth]

Yes, would much rather see my kid at Oberlin or Wesleyan than Princeton any day of the week.

Study business? Eew - that's so 1990s. Study something that is an end in itself, like English or Classics.

This is another good point the OP should consider. There are many LACs that have gained respect equal to that of top schools, and in the eyes of some more. They are great schools and offer a phenomenal education. Some of them are slightly less selective then their Ivy League counterparts.

Do not fall for the myth that a more selective institution is a better one.

A 7-page long resume is a bad resume.

For a high school student applying to college, I would agree, but I think when thegoldenmackid made his initial post he was purposefully exaggerating. Having a solid resume with activities is very important, 7 pages obviously detracts from any passion.

Thanks everyone! Your inputs have been very insightful and have given me something to think about. Also Princeton is not the school that expect to get into and I am applying to others both state and private schools. Everyone has that one school they would love to go to but it's a longshot for them to get in, it's just like a car everyone has an expensive car they want be it a Mercedes or a Porsche.

Good luck in your applications next year! I sure hope you get into Princeton and get your Mercedes.

Puma1552 Good luck getting in of the waitlist! I wish you the best of luck.

 

[thegoldenmackid]

A 7-page long resume is a bad resume.

My high school, which is widely regarded as being a place whose structure is made for getting you into college didn't seem to think so. Given the amount of community service we were required to do all four years, peoples resumes generally were around 4-5 pages. Those kids who were at the top had resumes a bit longer. Mine was a tad bit over six full.

 

[eawmp1]

Just remember, any college can teach you more than you will EVER be able to learn. Do you best, apply to a range of schools (aim low, on target, and high). Then get accepted, go, and drink yourself silly.

 

[fivetoadsloth]

My high school, which is widely regarded as being a place whose structure is made for getting you into college didn't seem to think so. Given the amount of community service we were required to do all four years, peoples resumes generally were around 4-5 pages. Those kids who were at the top had resumes a bit longer. Mine was a tad bit over six full.

Ah, okay. My previous post is more or less nullified.

Anyway, when I went through the commonapp you are quite limited in how many things you can list as far as activities. If I recall correctly, you get to list 7 or so activities. I think almost everyone goes with a generic 'community service' and lists how many hours, but you are really not able to list each organization you helped specifically unless you want to limit mentioning other things. I'd assume when everything was sent in on paper things were different.

 

[iOrlando]

school is overrated.

you don't need college to be successful. College is more of a benefit because of the social/physical learning that you go through. Actual knowledge can be learned in such different environments.

Concerning Ivy league admissions, all I have to say is HA.

Generally the head admissions office is told...you need the class to look like this: (for example, 60% white, 20% black, 20% latino, etc, etc/ 60% from small cities, 40% large cities/, 15% Valedictorians, 9% who list mock trial as an activity..and the list goes on).

from the college's standpoint, they just want an overall board and wide-ranging class. (better chances of some people making it after college and making the college look good). If you look at an ivy college, many of kids are actually pretty stupid and average, they just are either very outgoing or have some attribute that compensates for their grades, test scores. (i dont associate high SAT scores with intelligence).

all of this is generally thrown away at public colleges (to an extent..but even then there are still some parameters).

if you are white, suburban, wealthy...and you apply to Ivy, you have the least likely hood of getting in.

but yeah i know plenty of people who went to Ivy league and they are unemployed and i know plenty of people who started their own companies without college.

so i would say go pick a college that suits your personality and interests more than just the name.

price matters too.

big caveat to this:
you can be very lazy and dumb, but turn out successful if you attend Ivy
you have to be pretty motivated and intelligent to be successful if you attend public.

that is one reason why parents send their kids to private school and ivy. they are afraid that if their kid gets into the wrong crowd and loses motivation, well at least the name of their school can keep them going forward.

in the real world, college names matter. you can argue against that all you want, but thats just how it is. It is much easier to make it big after attending Ivy than a public college. but again, this has nothing to do with the knowledge you get or dont get, just has to do with the alumni contacts you gain and the open/close doors that exist in the real world.

 

[Signal-11]

That said, I didn't apply to any ivies because I knew that for undergrad you can get a much better education. Even at the best large schools the focus is on research and graduate programs, undergrad classes are a lesser priority and are taught by professors who'd rather be doing their research or by teaching assistants. At a small liberal arts college I know my professors personally and my average class has had about 20 students, whereas I have friends at ivy league schools who have had enormous lecture classes with hundreds of students. Just a thought.

And here's where misconception meets misunderstanding.

A research oriented, top ranking department at high powered school can mean an impersonal experience. OTOH, it is also an opportunity to get involved in some very interesting projects and get published as an undergrad, which can be a great experience. By the time it came for me to apply for my graduate programs, the application itself was just a formality - I was on a first name basis with professors in several departments.

you're right. If you enjoy business by all means get a Bachelors in it. But he wants to get a business degree as an undergrad from Princeton, which is not offered. And if one wants to pursue a career in law, the most common undergrad course to write is English (lawyers are prone to being verbose).

Your first post in this thread was dead on. TS needs to do some more research. No Ivy offers "Business" as a major in the way that state schools do.

Agreed. To be clear those kids applying to top fifty schools had resumes that looked like this (they obviously weren't a list though):
-Student Council (Fr-Jr)
-Student Council Secretary (Sr)
-SADD (Fr-So)
-SADD Vice-President (Jr)
-SADD President (Sr)

I didn't do any of that and I did fine on my applications. Plus, I had some pretty spectacular failures on my record as well.

The problem with The Checklist is that everyone's got everything checked off. Everyone with those quals looks the same on paper. (And God help you if your last name is Asian kid with a common last name.) What'll help you is doing something unique. If you didn't do any of the above (or other similar stuff, such as NHS, etc) but you're the kid who drives an electric car to high school that you built yourself in your garage, then MIT and CalTech is going to like you.

fivetoadsloth, where'd you end might I ask? (Or should I just assume by your avatar)

I'll spill the beans if FTS won't.

Not in academia it isn't.

I don't think you have to tell Miles how things work in academia.

 

[miles01110]

Not in academia it isn't.

In academia the resume takes a back seat to the CV, which is a much more appropriate document to put a long employment history or list of publication. A 7-page long CV usually isn't necessary anyways, other than to solidify the point that you have published extensively (which isn't always a good thing, either).

There is, of course, a major difference between a resume and a CV. A 7-page resume (a la Dwight Schrute) would probably be instantly rejected by any HR type. The thought of a high school graduate-to-be having enough material to fill 7 pages is kind of comical to me in the first place.

 

[thegoldenmackid]

in the real world, college names matter. you can argue against that all you want, but thats just how it is. It is much easier to make it big after attending Ivy than a public college. but again, this has nothing to do with the knowledge you get or dont get, just has to do with the alumni contacts you gain and the open/close doors that exist in the real world.

Umm... Sort of. It's the last degree that matters. In terms of getting into grad school, awful grades at an Ivy is going to end up costing you a ton of money for placement with a bunch of people who did "okay" at a bunch of 51-150 schools.

If you finish at the top of your class at nearly any university, you should have a nice selection of grad schools available. If you finish at the bottom, even if it is an Ivy, it's not going to be pretty.

 

[fivetoadsloth]

And here's where misconception meets misunderstanding.

A research oriented, top ranking department at high powered school can mean an impersonal experience. OTOH, it is also an opportunity to get involved in some very interesting projects and get published as an undergrad, which can be a great experience. By the time it came for me to apply for my graduate programs, the application itself was just a formality - I was on a first name basis with professors in several departments.

...

I didn't do any of that and I did fine on my applications. Plus, I had some pretty spectacular failures on my record as well.

...


I'll spill the beans if FTS won't.



I don't think you have to tell Miles how things work in academia.

First, Signal-11, as always, is pretty much right on the money. I agree with pretty much everthing that he said.

I also had quite a few flaws in my application, and I feel like I did fine as well.

I realized that my avatar was a bit misleading- I haven't used the forums in quite a while and never got around to updating it. I ended up filling out my Harvard application but never actually applied. I will be studying Neuroscience at Johns Hopkins next year.

Umm... Sort of. It's the last degree that matters. In terms of getting into grad school, awful grades at an Ivy is going to end up costing you a ton of money for placement with a bunch of people who did "okay" at a bunch of 51-150 schools.

If you finish at the top of your class at nearly any university, you should have a nice selection of grad schools available. If you finish at the bottom, even if it is an Ivy, it's not going to be pretty.

While your last degree certainly does matter the most, I am under the impression that your undergraduate education matters a bit more then many posters seem to be presenting. When applying to grad school you are going to be neck-to-neck with many applicants and ultimately prestige and name of the university are going to be a factor.

Again, I could easily be mistaken but that is my current impression based on friends applying to graduate school from Harvard compared to those applying to graduate school from state schools.