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Before this gets out of control and ends up in PRSI land let me clarify for any who choose not to read the entire thread. The above discussion between "manager" and "applicant" is a fictional example/illustration. Let's not get all worked up. The debate is not about Chick-fil-a and religion, some of us were just discussing something brought up by it5five in his post.

Simmer down now... :)
 
Again, I see your point, but don't you think that interpretation of the law is a little extreme.

This is not my interpretation of the law. This is the interpretation of the courts on all levels within the United States.

As I understand it you are not allowed to ask employees about their personal religious beliefs or discriminate based on that. I don't think there is any prohibition against the business owner explaining that his religious beliefs are at the root of any specific business decision. I mean what happens when an employee who doesn't know asks why they aren't open on Sundays? "Sorry, I can't tell you because it has to do with something we don't talk about due to legal restriction. All you need to know is that we are closed."

This is how people get into trouble and why HR management is it's own specialized field. From your previous hypotheticals, you don't feel you referred to the applicant's religion, when in fact you did. Furthermore, you opened the door by asking what could be interpreted as a leading question. In testimony, it would go like this: "Why did you mention your religious beliefs, Mr. Lee?" Mr. Lee "Well, the manager asked me if I were religious or not."

A simple statement of fact, that "the store is closed on Sundays due to the founder, owner and CEO's religious beliefs" is fine. Referencing the applicants religious beliefs is not.

Clearly, common sense would indicate that the manager meant nothing by this, but HR people involved with large organizations will tell you that this is one of the things you SHOULDN'T do.

I only know this because I often work for organizations that hire in one country but second personnel to another. In this case, countries might have conflicting laws.

I like the principal behind why they are closed on Sunday as well, but I don't like it when a Sunday comes around and I'm craving a chicken sandwich, waffle fries, and lemonade. :(

I don't really eat fast food so I don't really know if their food is any good. I like the idea that the founder is willing to stand behind his principles, even if I think his principles are outmoded.

Chick-fil-A (1946/Truett Cathy) is privately-held and family-owned U.S. restaurant with over 1,400 locations. Nobody is forcing anyone to work for them or buy their products (which happen to be among the best fast-food chicken sandwiches available). Letting potential employees know about Chick-fil-A work schedule (Sunday being closed) is not only correct; it is appropriate under the circumstances. No implication of religious was made [in my opinion]; only an explanation that the company practices that schedule. If you have objection to it don't patronize them or don't work for them.

Being privately held has no bearing on compliance with laws regarding discriminatory hiring practices. These laws are in place for a good reason - historically, this is how bigots of all stripes discriminated against potential hires.

In fact, depending on the organization, mentioning any of the major discrimination factors on a CV is often grounds for immediate disqualification of the candidate.

As mscriv mentioned, most of the time, it's a simple matter of misunderstanding and misinterpretation but as a manager, it is your responsibility to be aware of the law.

Me too; I wish more retail and food establishments were closed Sundays so employees could spend time with family and honor/worship their faith if they choose to. Some of the older folks on the board may recall Blue Laws practiced in most states; where/when most stores/establishments were closed one day a week for such honor. Sadly, growing secularism ended this widespread practice.

I think it has less to do with secularism than capitalism.
 
Thanks for clarifying Singal-11. I think it's a sad but true fact that in our "sue-happy" everything is about discrimination society that you are right when you say one can't be too careful and should err on the side of caution. It also explains why HR people are wound up so tight. :D
 
Just state they're closed on Sunday, no need to bring religion into it. Just say "We are closed on Sunday. I see you're still in school and likely unavailable on weekdays and can only work on Saturdays, will being limited to 8 hours a week be a problem?" Why does religion even have to be mentioned?

I know the discussion under debate centered on a fictional example but we should be clear here... so approaching this explanation calmly:

Chich-fil-A is proud of the company and mentioning why the company is closed Sundays is provided (see below) and breaks no employment law by so mentioning.

It's on the Company website here: http://www.chick-fil-a.com/?#faqs
See Corporate Info on Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
 
I know the discussion under debate centered on a fictional example but we should be clear here... so approaching this explanation calmly:

Chich-fil-A is proud of the company and mentioning why the company is closed Sundays is provided (see below) and breaks no employment law by so mentioning.

It's on the Company website here: http://www.chick-fil-a.com/?#faqs
See Corporate Info on Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

No one is saying that the Sunday closing is discriminatory or breaking the law. That's your spin on this discussion. The discussion is how it being closed on Sundays could be used during the hiring process to determine the religious affiliation of the potential hire, which IS illegal.
 
No one is saying that the Sunday closing is discriminatory or breaking the law.

Respectfully, several posts have suggested or insinuated just that...

The discussion is how it being closed on Sundays could be used during the hiring process...

Use of "could" in your post assumes a great deal not backed up by facts in this discussion.

... to determine the religious affiliation of the potential hire, which IS illegal.

Being a manager I have seen lots of employment applications over the years, from a variety of firms throughout the nation. Many of these forms ask lots of interesting questions, many of which are irrelevant to the hiring and/or employment process, yet are asked nonetheless in a non-required, non-compulsory way. Among these questions are ethnic background, race, spouse's name, sex, etc., all asked and presented in a variety of ways. So too, I have seen questions on employment forms on applicant's religious belief. That said, perhaps you can point me to specific law (state or federal) that makes asking an applicant about his//her faith, in a non-compulsory way, illegal?

===
Mod: Regrets on pressing this but it touches upon something I am directly involved in/interested about...
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I know the discussion under debate centered on a fictional example but we should be clear here... so approaching this explanation calmly:

Chich-fil-A is proud of the company and mentioning why the company is closed Sundays is provided (see below) and breaks no employment law by so mentioning.

It's on the Company website here: http://www.chick-fil-a.com/?#faqs
See Corporate Info on Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)


I don't really care if they're closed on Sunday because Xenu came down from Uranus in his intergalactic flying Ferrari and told the founders to be closed on Sunday. But the applicant's religious beliefs should never come into question, period. It should not be asked, it should not be discussed, nothing.
 
I understand your point, but context still remains the determining factor. For example:

Manager: "I don't know if your religious or go to church or anything, but we are closed on Sundays because our founder and CEO has made that decision based on his own religious beliefs. I wanted to make sure you were aware of that in applying for a position here if it is an issue for you regarding hours or availability."

Applicant tells a friend later: "Man that manager asked me if I was a religious person and said they were a religious company. I don't think that's right..."

Misunderstanding and miscommunication is just part of being a human being. It happens to all of us. Not defending Chick-fil-a, just saying don't jump to conclusions.

No, it was a direct question about his religious beliefs. Nothing about being closed on Sundays or anything about scheduling. I'm not blaming the entire company, and neither did my friend. He just assumed it was a terrible manager/franchise. I only mentioned it in this thread so the OP would be prepared/not taken by surprise if such a question did come up during an interview.
 
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