Aperture 3 makes images less sharp??

[Designer Dale]

Interesting topic. I had noticed that the batch of photos I took yesterday at the Nisqually Delta Wildlife Preserve seemed fuzzy in A3. I ran the raw file through PS and got this. The lens is my Tamron 28-300 variable f/stop zoom. Not my best.


It required a lot of sharpening. I'm going to download the trial of the NIK Sharpener Pro and see what happens.

Dale

 

[VirtualRain]

Well it seems to be a little misleading because you cannot really judge the true sharpness of an image when you're not viewing it at 100%, as you will never be seeing all the available detail. It's not right to judge the sharpness of an image when only viewed at 50% size because you are not seeing what detail is really there. It makes sense to judge other adjustments (like color or contrast) when viewing at less than 100% because their effects can be judged on an interpolated version of the image.

If I am understanding you correctly, you want to know if your image is sharp or not by viewing it at less than 100% magnification?

If A3 is "supposed to" sharpen the image at fit-to-window size, then it is possible people will overestimate the sharpness of the image and actually undersharpen.

It is possible that there is still some kind of output sharpening is being applied to the image upon export. Did you try the following:

Take a full-sized image, export it at 1024x768 (or some other arbitrary resolution) from A3. Export it again at full size. Open the full sized export in photoshop, and resize it down to the same size as the reduced size image you made from A3. Test the different interpolation algorithms (bilinear, bicubic, etc). How do they compare?

Do any of the algorithms provide the sharper result that A3 does? If not, there is likely some kind of built-in output sharpening that is there but just that you cannot control.

I have verified there is no output sharpening. You don't need to output anything to see the problem. All you need to do to see what's going on is edit the same RAW file in both Aperture and DPP at the same time. At 100% zoom, you can easily adjust the sharpening in both Aperture and DPP to achieve a suitably sharp image. Then, when I view the result at "fit-to-screen", the Aperture image looks soft and the DPP looks sharp. On a high res display, it's very easy to notice the difference in preview quality between these two programs - see the screen shots I posted a few post back.

It's all in how the two programs render the preview. DPP works as expected. Aperture does not. Perhaps Aperture works as they intended, but I certainly don't like it.

 

[Ruahrc]

I have verified there is no output sharpening. You don't need to output anything to see the problem. All you need to do to see what's going on is edit the same RAW file in both Aperture and DPP at the same time. At 100% zoom, you can easily adjust the sharpening in both Aperture and DPP to achieve a suitably sharp image. Then, when I view the result at "fit-to-screen", the Aperture image looks soft and the DPP looks sharp. On a high res display, it's very easy to notice the difference in preview quality between these two programs - see the screen shots I posted a few post back.

True but preview quality is not actual output quality, which is why I asked about the actual output. You do need to output something to correctly assess the situation, because the amount and type of sharpening you apply really depends on the final output size and intended usage. I suppose it's a pretty major omission for A3 to lack any kind of output sharpening period, but it's why I bring it up. When you export an image at less than full size, how does it downsample the data? And does it apply some kind of output sharpening to that? Does the downsampled output image also look soft as the preview does, or is it sharp (indicating that some kind of output sharpening has been applied).

DPP works as expected. Aperture does not. Perhaps Aperture works as they intended, but I certainly don't like it.

I can agree with that- you don't have to like the way they did it but at least hopefully you can understand their philosophy in doing so.

 

[VirtualRain]

True but preview quality is not actual output quality, which is why I asked about the actual output. You do need to output something to correctly assess the situation, because the amount and type of sharpening you apply really depends on the final output size and intended usage. I suppose it's a pretty major omission for A3 to lack any kind of output sharpening period, but it's why I bring it up. When you export an image at less than full size, how does it downsample the data? And does it apply some kind of output sharpening to that? Does the downsampled output image also look soft as the preview does, or is it sharp (indicating that some kind of output sharpening has been applied).

You seem focused on outputting a down sampled image. Keep in mind, I'm not working with down sampled images... only full size RAWs or exported full-size 16-bit TIFFs. The issue as far as I'm concerned is with how the preview is being rendered on the screen in Aperture vs DPP vs Preview. Now perhaps you are trying to suggest that what ever algorithm Aperture uses to down sample exported images is the same algorithm it uses to display images at less than 100% zoom, but this is not true. Exported images (down-sampled or not) inherit the sharpening adjustments as you would expect them to. It's just that the preview on the screen does not show you what it will look like.

Again, the image on the left is how Aperture renders a sharpened image preview. The image on the right, is how DPP renders the same sharpened image in it's preview, AND how Preview renders the image if you export from Aperture as a full-size TIFF. For some reason, Aperture is not WYSIWYG.

I can agree with that- you don't have to like the way they did it but at least hopefully you can understand their philosophy in doing so.

No, I don't get it... what do you suppose their philosophy is?

The only thing I can think of is that they felt it was too much of a performance impact to display the sharpened preview image? That's shameful if true, because DPP can do it without causing any performance issues.

 

[JDDavis]

True but preview quality is not actual output quality, which is why I asked about the actual output. You do need to output something to correctly assess the situation, because the amount and type of sharpening you apply really depends on the final output size and intended usage. I suppose it's a pretty major omission for A3 to lack any kind of output sharpening period, but it's why I bring it up. When you export an image at less than full size, how does it downsample the data? And does it apply some kind of output sharpening to that? Does the downsampled output image also look soft as the preview does, or is it sharp (indicating that some kind of output sharpening has been applied).



I can agree with that- you don't have to like the way they did it but at least hopefully you can understand their philosophy in doing so.

I think what Virtual and I are concerned with is the preview quality. In his case he notices a difference in the working preview between A3 and DPP. I notice the difference in A3 (all I use) when the straightening tool is applied versus not applied. I believe Virtual and I are saying the same thing in that we think in an application like A3 that uses non destructive editing the preview should closely proximate the output for something as critical as sharpening. In my case I can attest to the fact that that output image does not have any output sharpening applied to it but looks great. They do not have the softened look of the preview (in A3) image. There is no problem with exporting for me just the issue of working with the image.

I understand what you are talking about with image size or zoom, though not to the technical degree that you do, that's why when I solely used PS I always sized images at 25, 50, 75, or 100% and never trusted what I saw until I had a "outputted" image. The whole point of going to A2,3 and non destructive editing was to have the freedom from that kind of workflow. I actually really like A3 and I'm completely on board with this type of program for editing, cataloging and outputting images. I just find it very annoying that the straightening tool softens the working preview of some of my images.

Virtual - is the straightening tool in A3 causing your softening or are you seeing it (when comparing to DPP) with out any straightening applied?

 

[Ruahrc]

I guess I can see where you guys are coming from, I am just still confused because you keep referring to images that are not 100%. As in the image you are viewing in A3 at fit-to-screen is not 100% zoom. Any time you view an image other than in it's native capture size, some interpolation was done, and this will rob some sharpness. A little sharpening post-resize is needed to restore the crispness. Seems like your problem is centered around why that sharpening is not being applied in the preview window when working in A3 (but supposedly upon output it is getting sharpened). I guess I can't say, and don't know.

The point I was trying to make was that perhaps the sharpening settings you apply in A3 are only applied to the image at 100% scale, and thus when you "zoom out" you are both again reducing the image size (and interpolating) and also making the sharpening enhancements (which were applied at 100%) too small to see. AFAIK this is how LR3 does it, the sharpening settings are applied to the image at a 100% per-pixel level, and then additional output sharpening is applied upon export, post size reduction (if you set that option at least).

Perhaps the sharpening settings in A3 are also applied to the image after it is resized down upon export? That would make sense from a processing standpoint, and would produce a degree of discontinuity if the sharpening was being applied to the image on a 100% level in A3 but also upon export (but not shown).

 

[VirtualRain]

Virtual - is the straightening tool in A3 causing your softening or are you seeing it (when comparing to DPP) with out any straightening applied?

No time tonight, but I will play with this more tomorrow evening and see what I can determine.

 

[iwannamac]

New Mac user - how to manage files?

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Edited: errant reply. Apologies.

 

[JDDavis]

I guess I can see where you guys are coming from, I am just still confused because you keep referring to images that are not 100%. As in the image you are viewing in A3 at fit-to-screen is not 100% zoom. Any time you view an image other than in it's native capture size, some interpolation was done, and this will rob some sharpness. A little sharpening post-resize is needed to restore the crispness. Seems like your problem is centered around why that sharpening is not being applied in the preview window when working in A3 (but supposedly upon output it is getting sharpened). I guess I can't say, and don't know.

The point I was trying to make was that perhaps the sharpening settings you apply in A3 are only applied to the image at 100% scale, and thus when you "zoom out" you are both again reducing the image size (and interpolating) and also making the sharpening enhancements (which were applied at 100%) too small to see. AFAIK this is how LR3 does it, the sharpening settings are applied to the image at a 100% per-pixel level, and then additional output sharpening is applied upon export, post size reduction (if you set that option at least).

Perhaps the sharpening settings in A3 are also applied to the image after it is resized down upon export? That would make sense from a processing standpoint, and would produce a degree of discontinuity if the sharpening was being applied to the image on a 100% level in A3 but also upon export (but not shown).

Ruahrc, thanks for continuing to be interested and helping with this topic. I understand what you are saying about sharpening being applied at the 100% zoom level. I have not used LR3 so I'm only familiar with A3. Let me describe the process I go thru. I take an image with my D90 in RAW. Import the RAW image off the SD card directly into A3. I don't edit in full screen in A3 but the application is "full screen". I don't ever resize the image though. My view of the image is always constant. When exporting I don't resize the image but export at full size. So I have my image in A3 (which is technically a preview) and everything looks fine. A little flat like I expect it to. Normally the first things I do is straighten then crop if necessary. On some images, not all, when I apply the straightening tool I can visibly see the image soften after application. Uncheck the tool and we are back sharp, check the tool and it softens. This is before applying any sharpening. If I go on about my business with adjustments and then export the image (full size) to jpeg, tiff or whatever the softness will be gone and the image will look sharp again (on the epxorted image of course, the preview in A3 is still soft).

Perhaps interpolation, as you have said, comes into play when the image is resized during the straightening process. Not sure. It is only noticable on some images (mostly wide horizontal shots). I work on a 24" Imac. Perhaps it has something to do with the preview size specific to that size monitor...not sure. I do feel it is an error in Apple's implementation of the straightening tool. I don't recall ever noticing it in A2 and it doesn't happen for every image in A3. The images that I export look fine to me. It's the softened working preview image that is the issue and that's more of workflow, editing, selection type issue than a final image quality issue.

 

[VirtualRain]

I spent a bunch of time this evening, trying to get to the bottom of this.

JDDavis... if you're still following this, I'd like you to try this out as it's actually very different from what you've reported.

I've found that I can get a preview in Aperture that resembles the output sharpness if I do the following:
- View the image in full screen mode (keyboard shortcut "F")
- Rotate the image more than +/- 0.3 degrees

You can observe the change in sharpness (only in full screen mode) by monitoring a detail in your photo while using the straightening tool... you will find that as you pass close to 0-degrees rotation, the image is soft... as you rotate the image beyond +/- 0.3 degrees, it sharpens up.

This effect can't be seen in default window mode. In fact, you can see the difference in sharpness after rotating by more than +/- 0.3 degrees if you simply toggle between full screen mode and window mode with "F".

Attached are two screen caps of the same image... the first one, is not straightened. The second one was adjusted to -0.4 degrees. Look at the stairs and the roof of the shack. Same image. No other adjustments after importing RAW... just one is slightly rotated.

This is bizarre. Can anyone else duplicate this?

 

[VirtualRain]

If anyone using Aperture can comment on the observation from my last post, that would be helpful... is it me or is it Aperture?

 

[JDDavis]

I spent a bunch of time this evening, trying to get to the bottom of this.

JDDavis... if you're still following this, I'd like you to try this out as it's actually very different from what you've reported.

I've found that I can get a preview in Aperture that resembles the output sharpness if I do the following:
- View the image in full screen mode (keyboard shortcut "F")
- Rotate the image more than +/- 0.3 degrees

You can observe the change in sharpness (only in full screen mode) by monitoring a detail in your photo while using the straightening tool... you will find that as you pass close to 0-degrees rotation, the image is soft... as you rotate the image beyond +/- 0.3 degrees, it sharpens up.

This effect can't be seen in default window mode. In fact, you can see the difference in sharpness after rotating by more than +/- 0.3 degrees if you simply toggle between full screen mode and window mode with "F".

Attached are two screen caps of the same image... the first one, is not straightened. The second one was adjusted to -0.4 degrees. Look at the stairs and the roof of the shack. Same image. No other adjustments after importing RAW... just one is slightly rotated.

This is bizarre. Can anyone else duplicate this?

Interesting. I may not be able to get to Aperture for a few days (work consistently gets in my way) but I will see if I can duplicate your findings soon. I can clearly see the first photo is soft and you say it is the unrotated one. I have absolutely noticed images softening as I have employed the straightening tool (not all images though). But when I turn the tool off (uncheck it) they sharpen back up. Has your soft image had no straightening applied at all or is the tool checked and set at 0? If it is checked but at 0 does it sharpen when unchecked? Either way it seems obvious that the straightening tool is the culprit in some related way.

Since we are comparing our findings in A3 what about the inputed image? All of my images that have been affected are coming from a D90 and all of them are shot in RAW only. All of them have been with either the Nikkor 18-200 or the Nikkor 50 f/1.8. (The image that's posted here of the girl is with the 50) I import directly into A3 and do nothing to the image before that. Are you shooting FF or DX? I don't know if this would have anything to do with it, I just thought I'd ask. I don't know why it effects some of my photos and not others.

What about your output images? If you export the soft version of your stair and building shot is it sharp? It seems that the images I have that I notice the softening on are fine when I export them for printing or web use, though I have not tried to make any large prints from any of the images. I have a 5x7 print of the shot with the girl example that is posted here and it is just fine.

I have Christmas pictures to get to in A3 so when I get back in there I will try to duplicate your findings. I'll post whatever I can.

 

[jared_kipe]

I spent a bunch of time this evening, trying to get to the bottom of this.

...
This is bizarre. Can anyone else duplicate this?

Congratulations, You and JDDavis have independently discovered Aliasing/antiAliasing. Time to update your respective wikipedia pages.



Imagine, you have an image with a series of straight vertical black lines. One or two pixels wide.

Now, imagine you want to rotate this image.
Q: At what angles will this not look EITHER bad/jagged or softer/blurry?
A: Only at integer multiples of 90º

To keep the image from looking very odd, and possibly getting aliasing artifacts like moire, your software is using some antiAliasing algorithms to effectively BLUR the image.
To get the same approximate sharpness, rotated images need heavier sharpening. Bottom line.

 

[JDDavis]

Congratulations, You and JDDavis have independently discovered Aliasing/antiAliasing. Time to update your respective wikipedia pages.



Imagine, you have an image with a series of straight vertical black lines. One or two pixels wide.

Now, imagine you want to rotate this image.
Q: At what angles will this not look EITHER bad/jagged or softer/blurry?
A: Only at integer multiples of 90º

To keep the image from looking very odd, and possibly getting aliasing artifacts like moire, your software is using some antiAliasing algorithms to effectively BLUR the image.
To get the same approximate sharpness, rotated images need heavier sharpening. Bottom line.

Thanks. I understand what anti-aliasing is though I am no expert in photography, imaging, programming, software, optics, or any other field related to this issue. I understand that anytime you rotate, enlarge, or otherwise alter the original pixels in the image you degrade the quality (except in 90 degree rotations). You are now moving the squares out of thier area and into another squares area. I believe this is called interpolation. Aliasing is an artifact of interpolation. I have not really noticed any aliasing issues with my images in Aperture 3. I understand that interpolation in general produces 3 artifacts, aliasing, blurring, and edge halo. Just like any other piece of imaging software I assume A3 uses some algorithm to try to get the best results when dealing with the effect of rotating the image.

The issue is not that interpolation and anti-aliasing happens in A3 (when straightening). My real issue is the output image vs the viewed working image. I believe on some images in the A3 viewer have an abnormal amount of softness when rotated by small degrees. So maybe A3's algorithm or process needs tweaking? When you export one of these images the softness is fixed. From everything I can tell A3 does not apply extra sharpening to the image as it is exported. Perhaps it does but I can't confirm it. My problem is that I want the image that I have edited and cataloged in A3 to be the same (relatively speaking...I realize the monitor has a huge role in this) as the exported image. Now, I might wrongly expect this because I didn't grow up in digital imaging through all the different capabilities and versions of how people interacted with images on computers. I really only started about the time of CS2. But with the way I understood A3 to work, the workflow it leads you to and that it's billed as an editor and cataloging tool for you images I feel that viewed image in the program should be very close to what you get on the exported image. Maybe I'm off on that. I feel this particular, probably limited to a few people, issue can lead you to make mistakes when editing, like oversharpening.

Anyway, I'm glad that this post has kept going and I appreciate all the info. If nothing else it's helped me learn more about digital imaging and my hang up with this has made me even more conscious of getting the image squared up with the camera, which is the best possible solution.

 

[VirtualRain]

Interesting. I may not be able to get to Aperture for a few days (work consistently gets in my way) but I will see if I can duplicate your findings soon. I can clearly see the first photo is soft and you say it is the unrotated one. I have absolutely noticed images softening as I have employed the straightening tool (not all images though). But when I turn the tool off (uncheck it) they sharpen back up.

Hmm... that is the opposite of what I'm seeing. However, it will be interesting to see if you try to recreate my observation anyway.

Has your soft image had no straightening applied at all or is the tool checked and set at 0? If it is checked but at 0 does it sharpen when unchecked? Either way it seems obvious that the straightening tool is the culprit in some related way.

Agreed. There may be a bug in Aperture related to the straightening tool and the preview display that manifests itself differently depending on other factors.

Again, here's how I recreate the problem...
- Import RAW
- Make no adjustments
- Export to 16-bit full-size TIFF
- View the TIFF in Preview - scaled to the same size as Aperture's preview
- Note that Aperture's preview looks softer than the TIFF
- Go to Full Screen in Aperture "F"
- Rotate the image more than 0.3 degrees using the straigtening tool
- Note that Aperture's preview now looks as sharp as the TIFF

Since we are comparing our findings in A3 what about the inputed image? All of my images that have been affected are coming from a D90 and all of them are shot in RAW only. All of them have been with either the Nikkor 18-200 or the Nikkor 50 f/1.8. (The image that's posted here of the girl is with the 50) I import directly into A3 and do nothing to the image before that. Are you shooting FF or DX? I don't know if this would have anything to do with it, I just thought I'd ask. I don't know why it effects some of my photos and not others.

I'm shooting on a Canon 7D - crop sensor.

What about your output images? If you export the soft version of your stair and building shot is it sharp? It seems that the images I have that I notice the softening on are fine when I export them for printing or web use, though I have not tried to make any large prints from any of the images. I have a 5x7 print of the shot with the girl example that is posted here and it is just fine.

Yes, as noted in my steps above... An exported full-size TIFF is rendered sharper in Preview than it is in Aperture... unless, I rotate it in full screen mode more than 0.3 degrees. Once the preview is rotated in Aperture, it matches the sharpness observed in the output file.

So for me... if I want to see how my output is going to look, I need to rotate it! FML!

I have Christmas pictures to get to in A3 so when I get back in there I will try to duplicate your findings. I'll post whatever I can.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

BTW, I also tried various preview settings in Aperture, using higher quality previews, no previews, etc. None of that made a difference.

Congratulations, You and JDDavis have independently discovered Aliasing/antiAliasing. Time to update your respective wikipedia pages.

To keep the image from looking very odd, and possibly getting aliasing artifacts like moire, your software is using some antiAliasing algorithms to effectively BLUR the image.
To get the same approximate sharpness, rotated images need heavier sharpening. Bottom line.

I'm aware of this as well. If I saw the image getting less sharp when rotated, I would tend to agree and forget about it. However, I'm seeing the opposite... sharpness increases when rotated!

My initial conclusion is that it's a bug in Aperture that's related to the preview image and the straightening tool. But we really need more people to verify my/Jeff's findings in case it's something unique to either of our situations.

If you are using Aperture, can you please try some of these things out and report back?

 

[mtbdudex]

Has anybody read this?
"Tip: Be Careful When Using the Straighten Tool in Aperture 3"
http://aperture.maccreate.com/2010/09/28/tip-be-careful-when-using-the-straighten-tool-in-aperture-3/

We heard from an AUN reader that was wondering if anyone else had noticed that Aperture 3 blurs the image slightly when using the Straighten Tool. In tests we see it as well.
I’ve rotated an image below and show a before and after. There appears to be a very slight decrease in sharpness.

If you notice this bug, please take the time to fill out the feedback form in Aperture under File.