Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apogee Duet 2
- Thread starter PRPS
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I was gonna go for the Duet this summer when I get my MBP but now I'm even more excited.
The Duet 2 is very stylish. Very Apple-like actually. The only thing that worries me is the USB 2.0 but I guess we have to trust that the Apogee guys know what they're doing.
The Duet 2 is very stylish. Very Apple-like actually. The only thing that worries me is the USB 2.0 but I guess we have to trust that the Apogee guys know what they're doing.
I really think with the limited IO the Duet is capable of USB would be fine. I do trust that Apogee know what they are doing. People rave about the Duet. It's almost got a cult following. They wouldn't ruin that by releasing a lesser sequel.
CPU usage
This is my concern, although it isn't a huge concern:
"Architecture - FireWire vs. USB 2.0
FireWire, built from the ground up for speed, uses a "Peer-to-Peer" architecture in which the peripherals are intelligent and can negotiate bus conflicts to determine which device can best control a data transfer
USB 2.0 uses a "Master-Slave" architecture in which the computer handles all arbitration functions and dictates data flow to, from and between the attached peripherals (adding additional system overhead and resulting in slower, less-efficient data flow control)"
http://www.cwol.com/firewire/firewire-vs-usb.htm
This is my concern, although it isn't a huge concern:
"Architecture - FireWire vs. USB 2.0
FireWire, built from the ground up for speed, uses a "Peer-to-Peer" architecture in which the peripherals are intelligent and can negotiate bus conflicts to determine which device can best control a data transfer
USB 2.0 uses a "Master-Slave" architecture in which the computer handles all arbitration functions and dictates data flow to, from and between the attached peripherals (adding additional system overhead and resulting in slower, less-efficient data flow control)"
http://www.cwol.com/firewire/firewire-vs-usb.htm
Yes, USB isn't as good as Firewire, but Apple has pretty much killed firewire on their portable machines - so we're all going to have to get over it.
I absolutely wouldn't buy a firewire portable interface right now, since I doubt I'll find a Firewire interface on my next Mac laptop.
Realise that an audio interface doesn't really tax USB that much. 4 channels of 192/24 is 2MB of data a second. That's 1/10th the bandwidth that a cheap USB hard-drive easily manages.
Yes, USB uses the CPU. But we've all got at least 2 CPUs these days (I'm typing this on a machine with 8 CPUs, 7 of which spend most of the day sitting doing nothing).
The biggest issue with USB has been latency. Because the CPU couldn't give the interface it's attention 100% of the time, you'd have to have a big buffer and poor latency to minimise the chance of a drop out (the CPU has waited too long to check up on the interface, and some audio has been lost). If Apogee say that the latest versions of OSX have rewritten drivers that fix this issue, then we're pretty much all set. Certainly, they're recommending USB buffer settings as low or lower than Firewire for the Duet 2, so it would appear that this problem has been solved.
Last edited:
Lets not forget that you can't daisy chain USB.
For example I just purchased a MOTU 8pre to add on to my MOTU Traveler and these both connect to one firewire port on my MBP.
This might not matter to many, but if you think you're likely to need to add more inputs to your existing interface without replacing it then it's perhaps something to consider.
For example I just purchased a MOTU 8pre to add on to my MOTU Traveler and these both connect to one firewire port on my MBP.
This might not matter to many, but if you think you're likely to need to add more inputs to your existing interface without replacing it then it's perhaps something to consider.
My thoughts on Firewire vs USB.
In my experience, daisy chaining my Old Duet introduced more latency because you are distancing the Duet's connection to the mac and introducing more devices in the middle that can hamper communication to the Mac. I do think that daisy chaining is very convenient, but you would always have to put the duet as the last device in the chain because it only has one firewire port. On top of that most new macs only have one firewire port, while the older ones had two, so you have to daisy chain now if you want to connect more than one device. Apple really is phasing out firewire, in my opinion. I hated recording while daisy chained. I always wanted to unplug the first device in the chain, which was connected directly to my iMac and then plug only the Duet into the iMac. Another issue with firewire is that the drivers sometimes don't load properly when hot swopping devices while daisy chained. They have an old support document that tells Duet users to turn on all firewire devices that are daisy chained before turning You mac on so that things work properly. Or in general when things are daisy chained it can introduce clicks, pops, or intermittent communication with the Mac. Apogee talks about this in their support section for the duet. One advantage that Firewire definitely has over USB is it can provide 12V(max) power over its bus, and USB only provides a 5V(max) of power.
As for USB, there are usually 2 or more USB on every Mac. You can also use a hub to expand the number of USB ports if you need, but bypass the hub by using the second port on your mac (unless you have and older Macbook Air). If you don't require extra bandwidth then USB should work fine. The only reason for them to make a new Duet with Thunderbolt would be for latency reduction (and perhaps because you can daisychain them under thunderbolt), because the Duet wouldn't benefit from the increase in bandwidth with only two inputs being recorded at once. Few if any USB 2.0 device implementations are capable of saturating the entire 480 Mbit/s the protocol is capable of, but this can be achieved with multiple devices on the same bus. I still don't think you'd be using a bunch of USB Devices while recording and typically one USB device achieves 240 Mbits/s = 30 MB/s, so for just two input recording USB is more than enough bandwidth.
Sorry for the long post :
In my experience, daisy chaining my Old Duet introduced more latency because you are distancing the Duet's connection to the mac and introducing more devices in the middle that can hamper communication to the Mac. I do think that daisy chaining is very convenient, but you would always have to put the duet as the last device in the chain because it only has one firewire port. On top of that most new macs only have one firewire port, while the older ones had two, so you have to daisy chain now if you want to connect more than one device. Apple really is phasing out firewire, in my opinion. I hated recording while daisy chained. I always wanted to unplug the first device in the chain, which was connected directly to my iMac and then plug only the Duet into the iMac. Another issue with firewire is that the drivers sometimes don't load properly when hot swopping devices while daisy chained. They have an old support document that tells Duet users to turn on all firewire devices that are daisy chained before turning You mac on so that things work properly. Or in general when things are daisy chained it can introduce clicks, pops, or intermittent communication with the Mac. Apogee talks about this in their support section for the duet. One advantage that Firewire definitely has over USB is it can provide 12V(max) power over its bus, and USB only provides a 5V(max) of power.
As for USB, there are usually 2 or more USB on every Mac. You can also use a hub to expand the number of USB ports if you need, but bypass the hub by using the second port on your mac (unless you have and older Macbook Air). If you don't require extra bandwidth then USB should work fine. The only reason for them to make a new Duet with Thunderbolt would be for latency reduction (and perhaps because you can daisychain them under thunderbolt), because the Duet wouldn't benefit from the increase in bandwidth with only two inputs being recorded at once. Few if any USB 2.0 device implementations are capable of saturating the entire 480 Mbit/s the protocol is capable of, but this can be achieved with multiple devices on the same bus. I still don't think you'd be using a bunch of USB Devices while recording and typically one USB device achieves 240 Mbits/s = 30 MB/s, so for just two input recording USB is more than enough bandwidth.
Sorry for the long post :
I've always daisy-chained by Duet and have never experienced latency in the slightest. Perhaps it depends on the device you daisy chain w/ but I go Duet--->Glyph PortaGig 200gb drive (7200rpm FW 800)--->MacBook Pro.
Works like a charm! Wish the Duet 2 came w/ the option of FW800 at least, perhaps both ports like some HDs these days.
There's no evidence Apple is phasing out FW at all other than that one edition of the MacBook that didn't have it....which they fixed on the next revision. I really wish they had the top models of the iMac & MacBook Pro w/ two FW inputs on their own buses. That way you wouldn't have to daisy chain your audio and still have a distinct bus for your external drive(s). I'd definitely pay extra for that!
Works like a charm! Wish the Duet 2 came w/ the option of FW800 at least, perhaps both ports like some HDs these days.
There's no evidence Apple is phasing out FW at all other than that one edition of the MacBook that didn't have it....which they fixed on the next revision. I really wish they had the top models of the iMac & MacBook Pro w/ two FW inputs on their own buses. That way you wouldn't have to daisy chain your audio and still have a distinct bus for your external drive(s). I'd definitely pay extra for that!
What are you talking about? The current MacBook doesn't have it - and it was dropped from the MacBook line a couple of revisions back. The MacBook Air has never had it. The MBA is no longer a niche product, with 15% of laptop sales.
I think he meant to say MacBook Pro, at least the 13 inch anyway. There were one or two iterations of that model that didn't have firewire at all, but they do once again have firewire.
I still think they are going to phase firewire out once the market is saturated with Thunderbolt peripherals. It might take a few years. They both virtually do the same things, but Thunderbolt does it with 20Gbit bandwidth vs firewires 800Mbit and all with less latency (response times within 8ns across 7 hops downstream from a host). Like Firewire it has the ability to daisy chain, provide power over cable for bus powered devices, but it allows for bidirectional transfer of data through one cable over two protocols: display port and pci express. It will allow the "mapping [of] two of the most fundamental I/O protocols at the heart of computing (PCI Express and DisplayPort), onto a single highly efficient meta- protocol, transmitting them over a single cable, and managing the traffic routing (supporting daisy chaining and hot-plugging devices) with intelligent hardware controllers...System designers taking advantage of Thunderbolt technology can pursue ever thinner and lighter system designs, using fewer connectors while still achieving high performance between their products and external devices. [All the while eliminating extra cost of implementing additional controllers for extra protocols, like firewire]" -Intel
As for my issues with latency under daisy chaining firewire, it was never a constant thing and more recently things had been working great, but it was kinda sporadic. Perhaps it was in part due to some of the really cheap external firewire HDD enclosures I was using in my chain.
Last edited:
The MacBook 13" model became the MacBook Pro and once again had FireWire (yes that is what I was referring to). If anything is being phased out its the MacBook itself which is on its last plastic legs. How many audio or film pros do you think will be getting themselves a MacBook Air? The Air doesn't even have an optical drive so does that mean they're phasing out those? Apple may want to phase out FW but they realized it was a mistake to their pro users and they quickly corrected that faux pas.
Like RyanHaver said, they'll most likely move to Thunderbolt but thats years off still. There are way too many peripherals that use FW right now to get rid of it. Its a solid relevant technology, for most audio devices you don't need anything faster. I still find FW 400 more than adequate for a 2 channel unit like the Duet. I can see the appeal of TB for HDs esp RAID setups.
MowingDevil, just exactly like you said above, now I can use it with the MBA! Having this beautiful, the ubiquitous USB port, and great sounding device as portable as the MBA enables many possibilities and lower weight when traveling.
I think an audio device from the Apogee and its price range, users expects certain quality and stability to be delivered. And I think I can trust Apogee in delivering good uninterrupted audio even from an USB device despite the debates on the port speed/ CPU usage conditions.
Apogee have chosen their port well along with the introduction of different generation of Macs. And because they are in the Mac business, they "upgraded" their port from firewire to USB in order to target the majority of Mac users. If users want FW they can always get the Ensemble for a higher price and studio performance. But USB2 is what is equipped on most the Macs now so they are better to stick with it for now.
I bet when thunderbolt becomes more common in the future on most macs, they will come out with Duet3 or 4 to utilize the higher bandwidth.
But for now, I'm happy to see the Duet2 using USB, can connect to balanced connection, samples up to 192khz, and other nice improvements over the original Duet, which is already a great device.
I think an audio device from the Apogee and its price range, users expects certain quality and stability to be delivered. And I think I can trust Apogee in delivering good uninterrupted audio even from an USB device despite the debates on the port speed/ CPU usage conditions.
Apogee have chosen their port well along with the introduction of different generation of Macs. And because they are in the Mac business, they "upgraded" their port from firewire to USB in order to target the majority of Mac users. If users want FW they can always get the Ensemble for a higher price and studio performance. But USB2 is what is equipped on most the Macs now so they are better to stick with it for now.
I bet when thunderbolt becomes more common in the future on most macs, they will come out with Duet3 or 4 to utilize the higher bandwidth.
But for now, I'm happy to see the Duet2 using USB, can connect to balanced connection, samples up to 192khz, and other nice improvements over the original Duet, which is already a great device.
Just ordered!
I just placed my order at sweetwater.com. Got a call from the rep and should ship late April or early May. Breakout box is not available for preorder at this time.
I just placed my order at sweetwater.com. Got a call from the rep and should ship late April or early May. Breakout box is not available for preorder at this time.
That's what Sweetwater told me as well. When I talked to Apogee though they said that they were shipping out to all retailers in mid May. Let's hope the reps at Sweetwater are right and the guy I talked to at Apogee was wrong. I put my old Duet up for sale 2 weeks ago and it sold same day. Then I pre-ordered through Sweetwater. So it looks like I wont be able to record anything for a while.
I talked to both Sweetwater and Apogee and their stories matched. Apogee said they planned to ship to dealers the third or fourth week in April. And Sweetwater said they could probably get them to customers end of April or beginning of May.
Unfortunately, I have an updated report. Just spoke with an Apogee rep about 20 minutes ago. They said Apogee planned to ship the Duet 2 to US dealers on the 3rd week of May. So it's definitely pushed back a month, and I think your rep was right too. I'm bummed. I'm really anxious to get rid of my M-Audio ProFire 610. It's gotten buggier and buggier the last month or so. Now I'm going to have to just bear the pain until the Duet 2 finally shows up at my door, probably in June.
i heard this too from the Gearslutz thread about the Apogee Duet 2. Did you make a similar post there, lol. Anyway thanks for the update...i hope it comes in earlier in may than june
Yeah. That was me. Same dude, similar post. Lol. Had to share he bad news. It's getting hard not to buy something else, but I'm really wanting to switch my interface to USB and I really don't like any of the current USB offerings from anyone. The only other interesting ones is the Focusrite Scarlett interfaces. And they wont be released till late May either.
Couple of weeks away
I just emailed Sweetwater. They replied, as far as shipping date: "Apogee is saying the second week of May."
I just emailed Sweetwater. They replied, as far as shipping date: "Apogee is saying the second week of May."
You might want to pre-order from Musiciansfriend instead. They have a May 2nd shipping date, free financing, same price, free shipping, plus a free $72 Korg NanoKontroller. I just cancelled my Sweetwater order and ordered from MF.
They may list a May 2nd ship date, but that doesn't represent when Apogee will actually ship them to dealers. Apogee told me "3rd week of May". MF and Sweetwater will get them at the same time.
Though the freebie is a nice touch. You could always sell it if you don't need one.
this kinda sucks b/c i don't have a quality audio interface at the moment until this gets released/shipped.
But it's better all the issues get resolved before sending them out and rushing it
just looked on Guitar Centers site:
so who knows...i'm thinking mid may i should have it
But it's better all the issues get resolved before sending them out and rushing it
just looked on Guitar Centers site:
so who knows...i'm thinking mid may i should have it