Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple got their money for each copy, end of story as far as I'm concerned.

They didn't.

A little reminder of the facts :

http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/14/apple-wins-copyright-infringement-case-against-psystar-in-califo/

----------

I thought this was decided to be acceptable a while ago with tens of thousands of companies and government entities ghosting their legally licensed copies of Windows onto their machines in order to save install time.

That's fine and dandy when the copyright owner grants you permission to do it. Apple never granted any such permission to Psystar.

----------

Don't get me started on that horrible, industry-purchased law and its even more horrible interpretations. They did not circumvent for the purpose of infringing on copyright.

Well, yes, they did. As they were found guilty of copyright infringment.
 
I remember a time, just before Jobs came back, when Apple officially endorsed Mac Clones.
 
Remember what a license legally is: It is permission to do something you normally wouldn't be able to do. What can't you do? Well, that's spelled out in copyright law. You CAN do anything else. The authors should have no more power than is granted in copyright law, and shouldn't be able to seize power outside of copyright with a license.

The copyright holder can can modify the license to certain conditions for its use. Obviously only to Mac computers. Putting Mac OSX on non-mac computer would take away additional revenue that they would receive for the purchase of a Apple computer.
 
Always wondered where that money came from and how they could afford being so defiant. Who knows, perhaps some internet bubble money went into this.

When Psystar filed for bankruptcy one of the owner brothers was listed as creditor for $125,000, if I remember correctly. And their first law firm was owed $88,000. I wonder if they ever got paid.


Psystar lost, but they did help point the way for hackintoshes:

Actually, the Hackintosh community more or less considered itself to be ripped off by Psystar. So don't try to rewrite history; Psystar didn't do anything that was good for anyone.


The only surprise here is that it took this long to get upheld. Seriously, Psystar should have given up after the first cease and desist letter, their business plan never made any sense.

The business plan would have made a slight bit of sense if they had tried to sail below Apple's radar; don't make a big fuss about it, sell a few computers, and most importantly don't make any visible claims that they have the right to do this. _That_ was what forced Apple to act. Apple could not possibly ignore anyone making claims that selling MacOS X on a non-Apple PC was legal.

On the other hand, it doesn't look like they would have made any money, even if they hadn't been sued. I think the goal was more to get investor money, and spend it (with some generous amount ending up in their own pockets). And for that the big claims were probably necessary.


They should have been selling Mac OS X / EFI / whatever-enabled PCs and the retail version of OS X, providing an instruction how to install it.

If you followed what the court decided, that would have saved them the $60,000 fine for copyright infringement. But the expensive thing was the $2,500 per computer for DMCA infringement, adding up to about $2 million, and they wouldn't have got around that. Selling a computer that allows installing MacOS X is a DMCA infringement.
 
Last edited:
No they didn't. Their money for each copy would include the sale of the copy of the software, plus the sale of the authentic Mac required by the EULA. If Psystar had purchased a Mac for each Psystar they sold, they might have had more of an argument.

The retail price is for the retail software, not for a Mac.

Nice try, but not quite. The copyright law does not permit an unauthorized copy or derivative work of the software. When you run the software, it makes a copy or derivative work in memory. When you install it, it makes a copy or derivative work on disk.

USC TITLE 17, CHAPTER 1, §117
(a)Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.— Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or ...

The necessary step of loading a program into memory or disk in order to run is NOT a copyright infringement, and thus nobody should be able to obtain the power to restrict that through a license.

The license gives you permission to do something you normally wouldn't be able to do: make a copy or derivative work. But a license may be conditioned on things.

You purchased a copy of the software retail. Considerations exchanged, you now OWN a copy of that copyrighted work. Think of a physical book: If it doesn't make sense in relation to a physical book, then it cannot make sense in relation to software. You might as well say you can't make a working copy in your brain as you read a book, or that you can't repackage and resell a book for whatever price you want.

Invalid comparison. The landowner's rights were limited by the easement. Apple's rights to exclude use of its software are granted by Title 17 of the U.S.C.

People forget that copyright both grants AND LIMITS the rights of the copyright holder. The copyright holder has no rights but those that are granted, and then those are limited. This country does not adhere to the legal theory of natural right to works.
 
The retail price is for the retail software, not for a Mac.

Says you. The courts disagree - they have determined that Apple is entitled to monetize its OS by requiring its use on Macs.


USC TITLE 17, CHAPTER 1, §117
(a)Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.— Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or ...

The necessary step of loading a program into memory or disk in order to run is NOT a copyright infringement, and thus nobody should be able to obtain the power to restrict that through a license.

YES IT IS A COPYRIGHT infringement, because the installation (the initial copy) is unauthorized. One can't steal a copy of an OS and then claim that USING the OS isn't copyright infringement because of 17 USC 117.

You purchased a copy of the software retail. Considerations exchanged, you now OWN a copy of that copyrighted work. Think of a physical book: If it doesn't make sense in relation to a physical book, then it cannot make sense in relation to software. You might as well say you can't make a working copy in your brain as you read a book, or that you can't repackage and resell a book for whatever price you want.

You own the physical medium. Your rights to use the contents are limited by license and copyright law. Just like I can't buy a book, translate it into Greek, and hand the Greek copy to a friend to read.


People forget that copyright both grants AND LIMITS the rights of the copyright holder. The copyright holder has no rights but those that are granted, and then those are limited. This country does not adhere to the legal theory of natural right to works.

You babble on but you ignore the facts that the courts completely disagree with you. Apple's rights are subject to first sale, etc., but it does have the right to prevent copies and derivative works, and to authorize such copies and derivative works only subject to conditions it sets. There are limits to the conditions it can impose, but the courts have said and now confirm that Apple is free to limit the use of any such copies to authentic Macs.
 
That's fine and dandy when the copyright owner grants you permission to do it. Apple never granted any such permission to Psystar

Permission was not granted. Microsoft had no clue of the concept back then, or for years aftwareds. It was considered Fair Use. You paid for the copies, you had X machines loaded with usable copies. Simple.

Well, yes, they did. As they were found guilty of copyright infringment.

You don't have to remind me how far not only have the courts strayed from the clear copyright law, but how far the laws have strayed from their very justification for existence, the Copyright Clause, and its clear intent.

These days the corporations own copyright law, period. Don't expect any justice, don't expect your statutory and common law rights to be upheld against corporations that see their limitations under copyrights as mere nuisances to be banished with a EULA.

However, there are the very few rare glimmers of hope for We the People, such as Timothy S. Vernor v. Autodesk Inc., over First Sale, but it was later smashed. The last good news we had on this front was back in 1997 with Novell v. Network Trade Center.
 
The retail price is for the retail software, not for a Mac.

Except Apple sells OS X solely as an upgrade for Macintosh computers. They do not sell their OS for any other purpose. Just because it's on a shelf in a box, doesn't mean you have the right to purchase it and install it on anything you want. As with anything licensed, it's licensed for a specific use and purpose. This is why you don't see a "full" version and an "upgrade" version like you do with Windows.


You purchased a copy of the software retail. Considerations exchanged, you now OWN a copy of that copyrighted work. Think of a physical book: If it doesn't make sense in relation to a physical book, then it cannot make sense in relation to software. You might as well say you can't make a working copy in your brain as you read a book, or that you can't repackage and resell a book for whatever price you want.

Umm, that's not the issue. A more analogous comparison would be to buy a book, rewrite the ending, publish it and then resell it, but only sell the same number as original books you purchased. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is perfectly legitimate in your mind since the author and publisher already got their money.

People forget that copyright both grants AND LIMITS the rights of the copyright holder. The copyright holder has no rights but those that are granted, and then those are limited. This country does not adhere to the legal theory of natural right to works.

Sorry, regardless of how you want to interpret this, you do not OWN the software, you buy the right (license) to use the software. This has always been the case. When you buy an album, you do not OWN the music on it, you buy the right to listen to it. You cannot use that music for anything other than listening to it, same with software.

You cannot buy software (or music, or any other form of media content), ALTER IT and then resell it, which is exactly what Pystar was doing.
 
Last edited:
I can actually admire their willingness not to accept a cease & desist letter lying down, and to actually fight for their business model.

Essentially, Psystar was trying to get the courts to question Apple's ability to enforce concepts written in their EULAs, including the assertion that all retail copies of Mac OSX were only "upgrade editions" (despite not saying that anywhere on their boxes).

Basically, that's been Apple's defense/excuse for why it's illegal to BUY an OS X installation CD or DVD and proceed to install it on generic hardware of one's choosing. Theoretically, the ONLY way to purchase an initial "full install" OS X license is by purchasing a new Apple Mac computer that comes with it.

Everything else they've done to prevent such a disc from installing and working on non-Apple branded hardware was done artificially. (Their machines contain the same Intel architecture as any other PC clone.) So it was at least a *possibility* that one could succeed in arguing in the courtroom that these measures were anti-competitive moves on Apple's part. (After all, if you PAID Apple for the operating system disc, it's not like you "pirated" their software. You're simply trying to BUY their software but use it on alternate hardware, vs. being artificially coerced into buying the Apple hardware to go with it, right?)

But IMO, none of these "anti competitive" arguments would hold any water unless you got courts to agree first that there was no real basis for claiming the retail purchased OS X discs were in fact simply "upgrade editions, not for use for a new, full OS X installation".

I'll tell you where all the arguments fall down: Apple is the copyright holder. As the copyright holder, they have the exclusive right to decide what copies of their software can be made. And there is just no ********** way around that. Apple doesn't have to have any justification, or any good reason, or anything, to disallow certain copies to be made. They wrote MacOS X, therefore only what Apple wants counts.

(This excludes obviously anything that would be illegal discrimination. It would also not quite apply if Apple had a monopoly in the relevant market (operating systems for personal computers), which they don't).
 
The retail price is for the retail software, not for a Mac.



USC TITLE 17, CHAPTER 1, §117
(a)Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.— Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or ...

The necessary step of loading a program into memory or disk in order to run is NOT a copyright infringement, and thus nobody should be able to obtain the power to restrict that through a license.



You purchased a copy of the software retail. Considerations exchanged, you now OWN a copy of that copyrighted work. Think of a physical book: If it doesn't make sense in relation to a physical book, then it cannot make sense in relation to software. You might as well say you can't make a working copy in your brain as you read a book, or that you can't repackage and resell a book for whatever price you want.



People forget that copyright both grants AND LIMITS the rights of the copyright holder. The copyright holder has no rights but those that are granted, and then those are limited. This country does not adhere to the legal theory of natural right to works.

Even if all your arguments were legally accurate, what would allow Psystar to create a derivative work from OS X? And then reproduce and distribute that derivative work?
 
Says you. The courts disagree - they have determined that Apple is entitled to monetize its OS by requiring its use on Macs.

Me and the courts disagree on a lot of things. I agree with the Constitution.

YES IT IS A COPYRIGHT infringement, because the installation (the initial copy) is unauthorized. One can't steal a copy of an OS and then claim that USING the OS isn't copyright infringement because of 17 USC 117.

You stated that even loading into memory was an infringement, clearly not. Loading onto disk also isn't, if it is a legitimate copy (accounting errors aside here). Did you know making a backup is not an infringement either, no matter what the corporation says? Well, unless the license says you can't.

You own the physical medium. Your rights to use the contents are limited by license and copyright law. Just like I can't buy a book, translate it into Greek, and hand the Greek copy to a friend to read.

Nobody is suggesting the version of what you're talking about with a book. We would like to buy a book, read it if we like, re-sell it to another person at any price, maybe in a new case of our choosing. This is all legal with a book, cannot be prevented by any publisher, but reselling and repackaging is forbidden by most commercial EULAs.

Apple's rights are subject to first sale, etc.,

Nope. The licensing, according to the courts, completely erases any claim of First Sale. Apple has grabbed powers beyond those granted by copyright. Your rights under copyright become non-existent by the stroke of a pen of a corporation.

These days such a power grab has to be in the extreme to be held unenforceable, such as when Network Associates used a EULA to forbid unapproved reviews of its software. But such gag clauses have been successfully leveraged in the past, such as when Microsoft prevented the release of unflattering benchmarks.

Constitution, Fair Use, First Sale, First Amendment? Who needs them? A corporation's control over its software comes first.
 
Me and the courts disagree on a lot of things. I agree with the Constitution.

Apparently you don't agree with Article III of the Constitution.


You stated that even loading into memory was an infringement, clearly not.

Yes it is. It's only NOT an infringement if the person doing the loading into memory was loading it from an authorized copy. If the copy is authorized, then and ONLY then can the rights holder not prevent further loading into memory to make it operable.

Loading onto disk also isn't, if it is a legitimate copy (accounting errors aside here). Did you know making a backup is not an infringement either, no matter what the corporation says? Well, unless the license says you can't.

Loading onto disk IS because the copy is unauthorized, as it violates the EULA. The courts said so. You are wrong.

Making a backup may be fair use under 17 USC 107, true. Installing onto a computer for actual use is NOT fair use.

Nobody is suggesting the version of what you're talking about with a book. We would like to buy a book, read it if we like, re-sell it to another person at any price, maybe in a new case of our choosing. This is all legal with a book, cannot be prevented by any publisher, but reselling and repackaging is forbidden by most commercial EULAs.

Apple does not attempt to forbid first sale. Instead their EULA provides a limitation to the rights they grant you - you can't install and use on anything other than a Mac. In other words, you are not authorized to make derivative works, unless the purpose of the derivative work is to use it on a Mac. Just like when you buy a book you are not authorized to make a derivative work (a translation) for the purpose of using it on a different system (a person who only reads Greek). You are perfectly free to sell or give the original copy of the book to your Greek friend. You are perfectly free to sell or give away your original authorized copy of Mac OS.

Nope. The licensing, according to the courts, completely erases any claim of First Sale. Apple has grabbed powers beyond those granted by copyright. Your rights under copyright become non-existent by the stroke of a pen of a corporation.

Nope. You haven't a clue what "first sale" is. As I've said, the courts have imposed no limitation on your right to sell your physical copy of the OS.

By your ridiculous argument, all I have to do to circumvent copyright law is buy a copy and then give it to someone else - the recipient would be free to make whatever derivative works he wants because the magical "fair use fairy" eliminates all of the copyright holder's rights.
 
I'll tell you where all the arguments fall down: Apple is the copyright holder. As the copyright holder, they have the exclusive right to decide what copies of their software can be made. And there is just no ********** way around that.

Wrong. Apple's ability to control copying is limited in copyright law and common law. At least in theory. Apple gets around the limitations in copyright by using licenses.

Remember, we DO NOT have a natural right copyright system here. What you create you only have as much exclusivity as is granted by copyright law, nothing more. Copyright in this country is considered to be a "[sacrifice] of the many to the few," and "among the greatest nuisances" (yes, direct quotes from James Madison, who had a hand in writing the Copyright Clause). It exists only as a mechanism "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts."

Remember, even with a 14-year copyright term, Thomas Jefferson said "[T]he benefit even of limited monopolies [copyright/patent] is too doubtful to be opposed to that of their general suppression."

So, basically, when anyone supports the modern interpretations of absolute power under copyright, they are supporting something that is clearly opposed to the intent of those who wrote the basis for the very existence of copyright in this country.
 
They were installing the OS. They were also found to not having paid Apple for copies they did install from an imaging server (not from each individual CD). They sold something around 800 or so PCs courts document revealed and could not show invoices for purchases of proper OS X licenses.

They were also found to be guilty of breach of the DMCA for removing Apple's protection measures that prevented installation on non-authorised hardware.

Yup. There business mode was completely flawed. Basically their argument was "what Apple is doing with Mac OS X is bad for consumers and we offer an alternative which is good for consumers, so we should be allowed to break the law in the interest of our perceived public good".

I remember those. I got called a fanboy quite often in those threads for pointing out the flaw in logic in Psystar's business model. ;)

That's hilarious. I think anybody who reads your posts would recognize you are clearly not a "fanboy" -- usually the term is used by those who are already irrational "apple haters" whenever somebody sides with Apple in a dispute. As you articulated, their business model was completely flawed and they stood no chance. Using the term "fanboy" should earn your post an automatic downgrade of -5 (though this post would have earned it as well). :D

EDIT: KnightWRX do not always agree -- in fact we are often of a differing opinion. But I love the debates we have regardless and he is about the last person I would term a "fanboy".
 
Wrong. Apple's ability to control copying is limited in copyright law and common law. At least in theory. Apple gets around the limitations in copyright by using licenses.

Remember, we DO NOT have a natural right copyright system here. What you create you only have as much exclusivity as is granted by copyright law, nothing more. Copyright in this country is considered to be a "[sacrifice] of the many to the few," and "among the greatest nuisances" (yes, direct quotes from James Madison, who had a hand in writing the Copyright Clause). It exists only as a mechanism "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts."

Remember, even with a 14-year copyright term, Thomas Jefferson said "[T]he benefit even of limited monopolies [copyright/patent] is too doubtful to be opposed to that of their general suppression."

So, basically, when anyone supports the modern interpretations of absolute power under copyright, they are supporting something that is clearly opposed to the intent of those who wrote the basis for the very existence of copyright in this country.

You keep speaking in generalities and idealism. No matter how idealistically you look at what Psystar did, they violated copyright law. No limitations to Apple's exclusive rights allow Psystar to create a derivative work from OS X, reproduce it, and distribute it. SLA or no SLA.
 
I don't think many people will get your joke.

Yep, i know haha. It's just for those who know.

----------

I got your reference, so that makes two.

Too bad that was a terrible story arc on that series. I doubt it will come back from season 5 now.

My goal was two people, mission accomplished! haha.

Yeah I was fairly disappointed with the season. It had its moments, but not enough. I'm still hoping for a season 5, but if they just continue this story line (it seems that way with that ending) then I would sort of rather have no season 5. On top of that, they were saying RTD is busy developing some other show and that no matter what season 5 would be delayed.

Season 3 was awesome.
 
Apparently you don't agree with Article III of the Constitution.

Only insofar as the result of the framework conflicts with the rest of the Constitution. You probably think the same, only for other abuses of Congress that were overturned such as Schenck v. United States, Watkins v. United States and Korematsu v. United States.

Loading onto disk IS because the copy is unauthorized, as it violates the EULA. The courts said so. You are wrong.

At what point does it become unauthorized? The law says you can copy to disk and memory for the purpose of running it, thus neither of those acts in itself should make the copy unauthorized. You must start with an unauthorized copy first.

Installing onto a computer for actual use is NOT fair use.

True, it doesn't fall under the general Fair Use. It falls under the statutory law I quoted.

Apple does not attempt to forbid first sale. Instead their EULA provides a limitation to the rights they grant you - you can't install and use on anything other than a Mac.

Installing should not create an unauthorized copy, since it is a legal restriction on the exclusive rights of the copyright holder. Requiring it be installed on a Mac is purely over-reaching. I bought it, I can do what I want as long as I don't make copies that don't fall under the exemption.

At least that's how it would be if Congress and the courts weren't beholden to the corporations.

Nope. You haven't a clue what "first sale" is. As I've said, the courts have imposed no limitation on your right to sell your physical copy of the OS.

Remember Vernor v. Autodesk that I quoted? He won, then it was reversed. The courts HAVE imposed the ability for a corporation to arbitrarily COMPLETELY DENY your First Sale right.

By your ridiculous argument, all I have to do to circumvent copyright law is buy a copy and then give it to someone else - the recipient would be free to make whatever derivative works he wants because the magical "fair use fairy" eliminates all of the copyright holder's rights.

The exception is only for what is necessary for the you to be able to run your legitimate copy (or copies) of the program. It does not apply to giving away copies without relinquishing your right to run your copy. Same as the exception for backup doesn't mean "backup and then give that backup to a friend." You're going into the absurd.

And I think you need to learn what a derivative work is. It does not simply mean further copies of a work.

The funny thing is, I say all this as a software developer. My software is protected by copyright, period. My "EULA" simply reminds the user of his rights and restrictions under copyright, and has the standard disclaimer that really doesn't have anything to do with copyright. As a copyright holder, I refuse to engage in this unethical overreach of copyright.

----------

You keep speaking in generalities and idealism. No matter how idealistically you look at what Psystar did, they violated copyright law. No limitations to Apple's exclusive rights allow Psystar to create a derivative work from OS X, reproduce it, and distribute it. SLA or no SLA.

Buy a retail copy of Windows. Install it on a computer. Sell that computer.

Do you see a problem with this idea? Apple does, when it's their own operating system. The only difference is in the licensing terms, which attempt to create rights beyond what are granted to Apple by copyright.

Sadly, the courts agree with this creation of extra rights out of thin air.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_5 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8L1 Safari/6533.18.5)

Still have mine, runs like a charm.

Quad core 9650 3.0 Ghz with internal BluRay burner

And how much did that save over the biggest company in the world's offering?

I liked those plucky guys. Goliath v David.
 
Buy a retail copy of Windows. Install it on a computer. Sell that computer.

Do you see a problem with this idea? Apple does, when it's their own operating system. The only difference is in the licensing terms, which attempt to create rights beyond what are granted to Apple by copyright.

Sadly, the courts agree with this creation of extra rights out of thin air.

Again. Psystar modified OS X in order to install it on a non-Mac. They created a derivative work. 17 USC 117 does not limit Apple's exclusive right with respect to derivative works. SLA or no SLA, what gives Psystar the right to create a derivative work, reproduce it, and distribute it?

Windows was written to work on non-Macs. OS X was not. Windows does not require unauthorized modification to work on a random PC. OS X does. Just because you wish Apple wrote OS X to work on non-Macs, does not mean that you have a legal right to modify it to work that way.
 
At what point does it become unauthorized? The law says you can copy to disk and memory for the purpose of running it, thus neither of those acts in itself should make the copy unauthorized. You must start with an unauthorized copy first.

That's not what the law says. If it did, then I could break into best buy, steal a boxed copy of whatever software I want, and if I install it on a PC that's legal. Nonsense. The initial copy must be authorized. And the law you quoted is a statutory encoding of a famous court case - the point was that the copy into MEMORY cannot be prevented so long as the source of the copy is authorized.


True, it doesn't fall under the general Fair Use. It falls under the statutory law I quoted.

It does not. I've told you three times why. The courts agree with me. Move on.

Installing should not create an unauthorized copy, since it is a legal restriction on the exclusive rights of the copyright holder.

And yet it does. Your whole world view must be crashing down around you.

Requiring it be installed on a Mac is purely over-reaching. I bought it, I can do what I want as long as I don't make copies that don't fall under the exemption.

Those copies did fall outside the exemption. Next argument please.


And I think you need to learn what a derivative work is. It does not simply mean further copies of a work.

No one said it did. A derivative work is created when you install the OS (because the installed copy is not a bit-for-bit copy of the DVD) or when you run the OS (because the copy in memory is derived from, but not a copy of, the DVD. Further, Psystar further modified the OS to get it to work on their hardware, thus making further changes resulting in a derivative work.

The funny thing is, I say all this as a software developer.

And your understanding of the law is exactly what I'd expect from a non-lawyer.
 
What an incredible fuss about a company that's long out of business. Just another platform for the Apple defenders. (See how I carefully avoid the term 'fanboy'? :D). When business picked-up again, Apple turned on its heels and decided 'clones' were a bad idea, some kind of threat to their business model. (OS 9/X running on cheap hardware and running well).
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.