Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Say you're a book seller. I buy 2000 ebooks licenses of a New York Times bestseller from you at $9.99 each, 2000 licenses of a popular older ebook at $7.99, and 2000 hardcover copies for $10.99. You now have a goodly chunk of change in your pocket.

Now I turn around and start selling my bestseller ebooks at $8.99, slightly less I bought them for, sell the older ebook at $10.99, and sell the hardcovers for $24.99. Well over double what I paid for them.

Now since I sell a popular e-reader, the prices of my ebooks draws attention to that product. I sell a ton of the readers, along with all my licenses of my ebooks I bought from you. Now, I only sell half of my hardcovers, but since I had them priced over double their wholesale cost, I've already made my money back, and a tiny bit of a profit (which was probably used for paying for the shelf space and rental costs of the store I host them at).

My e-reader becomes absurdly popular, both because of the convenience of the product, and due to the low prices I'm selling my ebooks at. Paper book sales suffer as a result, but they're hardly a money sink. At least not yet.

Is what I'm doing illegal or immoral in any way?

That was way too difficult to follow for a forum post. :D

If I'm understanding right, the hardcover is irrelevant to the conversation. And I have no idea why you would expect to sell as many copies of a less popular book at a higher price as a best seller at a lower price.

That aside, I do not see that situation as being in any way illegal or immoral because you are operating at a scale without any significant market power. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make otherwise. Sorry if I'm missing something!
 
What you consider is not important, what it is important is what law consider and "loss leader" is not dumping nor anti competitive.



Any proof of that?


Oletros we have differing views. A loss leader to me is a product the retailer says at a lower price and loses money. What Amazon does is go to it's suppliers and say (as I understand it), we're reducing the price for this month and you will take the hit completely on this. The benefit for you is it should ramp up sales and you'll be better for it. It's not a shared thing but we'll squeeze you first.

You say it's fair to avoid tax, gain an unfair advantage then use that to drive competitors out of business all the while screwing the American people but gutting your tax bill. Let's assume you're right and this is completely legal. Then what will happen is more stores will follow suit and you'll find an industry in setting up offshore companies in tax havens, moving head office in name and routing US tax take.

The country is an economic system. A change in one part of the system effects other parts.

From the outside the DOJ case looks like a stupid move. Price fixing was designed to clobber people that jacked prices up so consumers lost. This was a case where businesses used it to profit excessively. The Apple case is very different you have a giant corporation routing US business with an unfair business base and then setting prices that drive others, and pretty much all others out of business. This is excessive market dominance and abuse. Apple wander along and say lets set a minimum price that's fair to businesses to allow them to function and fair to the consumer. The new prices are still sharper than what they had been and it's a win-win.

The DOJ says no... consumers lose and argue for price fixing. The DOJ case does not adhere to the intent of the law, to common sense or protect US interests.

Let's all move our businesses offshore, avoid tax and gut our competitors so they join us or die.

I still believe as a consumer I lose. I end up with a mainstreet of empty shops.

The systemic change that Amazon is brining is unhealthy. On the plus side we get to see old Apollo rockets.
 
Oletros we have differing views. A loss leader to me is a product the retailer says at a lower price and loses money. What Amazon does is go to it's suppliers and say (as I understand it), we're reducing the price for this month and you will take the hit completely on this. The benefit for you is it should ramp up sales and you'll be better for it. It's not a shared thing but we'll squeeze you first.

Yes, we have different views but yours it is not really the way it worked because publishers didn't took any hit, Amazon was paying them the wholesale price and Amazon discounted the ebooks, like all the wholesale has been working since decades.

So yes, Amazon was selling at a loss leader, discounting some ebooks and having profits in others and the whole division was profitable son no wrongdoing.
 
That was way too difficult to follow for a forum post. :D

If I'm understanding right, the hardcover is irrelevant to the conversation. And I have no idea why you would expect to sell as many copies of a less popular book at a higher price as a best seller at a lower price.

That aside, I do not see that situation as being in any way illegal or immoral because you are operating at a scale without any significant market power. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make otherwise. Sorry if I'm missing something!

My point is that it's all just price shifting, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Amazon's market position did make it more difficult for competitors to enter the field, but the things they did to strengthen their position were perfectly legal.

You could actually draw a good comparison between Amazon and the Kindle and Apple and the iPod. Both offered digital versions of popular items at costs well below their physical counterparts, and both have played a big part in making huge, sweeping changes to an industry.
 
My point is that it's all just price shifting, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Amazon's market position did make it more difficult for competitors to enter the field, but the things they did to strengthen their position were perfectly legal.

Except the part the you are missing is that there isn't a clear line between "price shifting" and "loss leaders" and a predatory pricing situation. What's legal for most competitors simply isn't always legal for a company with monopoly power. The difference is things like market power, intent, and market effects.

Amazon using their market position to "make it more difficult for competitors to enter the field" is exactly the kind of thing that antitrust law covers!

You could actually draw a good comparison between Amazon and the Kindle and Apple and the iPod. Both offered digital versions of popular items at costs well below their physical counterparts, and both have played a big part in making huge, sweeping changes to an industry.

Sure, but the big difference is that Apple never had the kind of dominance in digital music that Amazon had in eBooks. And Apple never sold music below cost.



To be clear, I'm not saying that people are wrong to classify Amazon's pricing as a loss leader. I just disagree with them. There is enough leeway in how the concepts are interpreted for both views to be correct. :)
 
Except the part the you are missing is that there isn't a clear line between "price shifting" and "loss leaders" and a predatory pricing situation. What's legal for most competitors simply isn't always legal for a company with monopoly power. The difference is things like market power, intent, and market effects.

Loss leading is a part of price shifting, with the loss leader being the item that's sold below wholesale value to get people into the store. Amazon was selling some books below cost to entice people to buy a Kindle, and get them to frequent their website. It was a carrot on a stick to get their foot in the door. That in and of itself isn't illegal in the least.

If Amazon were predatory pricing their ebooks, they'd undercutting themselves completely across the board, not making any money whatsoever. They'd be priced so low, any new player entering the market would have to work sell their own goods at such a huge deficit, they'd never be able to recoup their losses.

Amazon were only selling a handful of popular books below cost, yet still making a profit overall. Anyone could compete against them, they'd just have to offer up a more compelling product, and work at lower margins starting out.

Amazon using their market position to "make it more difficult for competitors to enter the field" is exactly the kind of thing that antitrust law covers!

And being a market leader in a strong position is perfectly legal. The government doesn't punish companies the moment they become "too successful", rather because they abused their lofty position and maintained it through anticompetitive means.

Amazon might've done a few shady things, but thus far at least, the government hasn't found any reason to throw an antitrust suit their way.

Sure, but the big difference is that Apple never had the kind of dominance in digital music that Amazon had in eBooks. And Apple never sold music below cost.

I'd say they had a good 70% of the market at one time, and the iPod did play a huge part in killing off record stores in much the same way that the Kindle has started killing off book stores. Amazon did have more of a lead in its respective market, but the two stories are comparable.

To be clear, I'm not saying that people are wrong to classify Amazon's pricing as a loss leader. I just disagree with them. There is enough leeway in how the concepts are interpreted for both views to be correct. :)

You're not wrong, but since this is the internet and all, I've gotta say I'm more right than you are. :p

NO QUARTER! :mad:
 
Last edited:
The boobs worried about how apple does or does not charge for purchases on its own hardware platform are delusional and falsely altruistic. If you dont like how apple does business, dont use apple products! But to expect or support a body of government to take as it wishes in the false name of the common good is the lowest form of burglary. See post 115
 
The boobs worried about how apple does or does not charge for purchases on its own hardware platform are delusional and falsely altruistic. If you dont like how apple does business, dont use apple products! But to expect or support a body of government to take as it wishes in the false name of the common good is the lowest form of burglary. See post 115

I can't believe you made me go all the way back to page 5 to read a bunch of Ayn Rand BS.

That's just mean, man. Mean and cold.
 
Change what for that and yes it makes perfect sense, you have claimed: "(this has not been proven by any honest measure)"

So yes, a 160 pages ruling disagree with your claim

I'll say it again, maybe this time it will sink in. Whether or not Apple is guilty as charged is irrelevant to what I'm saying. Even if Apple was entirely guilty and admitted as much the proposed action by the DOJ is ludicrous. ;)
 
That too. A simple argument ending statement for very simple people I've found.

Yes...Those who naively believe that their shallow, self righteous, good intentions constitute absolute truth. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" is very apropos. ;)
 
But what exactly are they guilty of

Wanting to make a profit
Gathering together the publishers to screw amazon
Or
Simply accidentally creating an environment where the outcome could be seen as anti-competition etc if someone selectively looks at the evidence out of context as the DOJ did

Apple is right to be appealing all of this given the selectivity of the DOJ and the likely bias by the Judge. Particularly when there was zero proof that Apple demanded that the publishers change terms for any other retailer, neither MFNs or Agency terms are illegal and so on

That said, on the flip side I'm happy this all happened if only to highlight a need to change the rules of play for all parties. Not just Apple but Amazon also. Limits should be put down on how high pricing can go, when and how long something can be exclusive to one service (limiting it to very short periods to protect consumer choice) and so on. Retailers should be allowed limited allowance to make certain reductions without the publishers approval for the purpose of special sales with rules about length and degree, including waivers on MFNs kicking in and who eats the lost money. For example, The publisher wants book x to be $14.99. Amazon would be allowed to mark it down to $9.99 for the first week of sales but has to pay the publisher based off the $14.99 price because the publisher didn't approve the price change. But again the key is all players on the same rules

By the same token, the DOJ ruling doesn't nix music etc contracts (frankly if don't think even book contracts should be cut since nothing in the terms was deemed illegal). But similar rules about price limits, requiring things like credit for episodes bought against season sets, or buying up quality. Required parity between physical and digital offerings. And so on.

----------



Which is part of why Apple is appealing. The question of bias needs to be addressed. As does the question of the DOJ overstepping with forcing the cutting of contracts, barring new ones for such a long length of time, trying to include forms of media not involved in the suit etc.

There is the crux of the entire issue. Why is the DOJ so brutally hard on Apple while letting Amazon, who is literally torpedoing an entire industry, skate away unhindered? We say that each thread turning into a political debate is annoying, and correlation is not necessarily an indication of causation, but it is really hard not to notice that Bezos and Amazon gave the administration a lot of cash and endorsement, while Apple did neither and clearly gets the heel of the boot here.
 
Loss leading is a part of price shifting, with the loss leader being the item that's sold below wholesale value to get people into the store. Amazon was selling some books below cost to entice people to buy a Kindle, and get them to frequent their website. It was a carrot on a stick to get their foot in the door. That in and of itself isn't illegal in the least.

Yep.

If Amazon were predatory pricing their ebooks, they'd undercutting themselves completely across the board, not making any money whatsoever.

That's the part where I disagree with you (and the DOJ). That metric is reasonable in a commodity market like oil or gas where the product is basically interchangeable. But books are not a commodity.

They'd be priced so low, any new player entering the market would have to work sell their own goods at such a huge deficit, they'd never be able to recoup their losses.

I'd argue that was the situation before Apple entered the market.

Amazon were only selling a handful of popular books below cost, yet still making a profit overall. Anyone could compete against them, they'd just have to offer up a more compelling product, and work at lower margins starting out.

We aren't talking about a "handful of popular books". Before agency pricing, 4% of Amazon's eBooks were priced below cost and made up 25% of their sales.

And being a market leader in a strong position is perfectly legal. The government doesn't punish companies the moment they become "too successful", rather because they abused their lofty position and maintained it through anticompetitive means.

Yep. I never suggested otherwise.

Amazon might've done a few shady things, but thus far at least, the government hasn't found any reason to throw an antitrust suit their way.

Yep.

I'd say they had a good 70% of the market at one time, and the iPod did play a huge part in killing off record stores in much the same way that the Kindle has started killing off book stores. Amazon did have more of a lead in its respective market, but the two stories are comparable.

Nope. iTunes only had around 35% of the digital music market at most. (You are thinking about downloads.)

(And while you compare Kindle to iPod, it makes me think about the fact that the Kindle is also rumored to be sold below cost. I wonder if the supposed profits from eBook sales are enough to offset the losses from Kindle reader sales.)

You're not wrong, but since this is the internet and all, I've gotta say I'm more right than you are. :p

NO QUARTER! :mad:

:D
 
Last edited:
Reality

I find it interesting how so many "fanboys" and some others defend Apple. You people just have no idea what you're talking about, and neither does the media.

We're in the eBook business. Apple is our competitor, and so is Amazon. Stop dragging Amazon into this.

We are happy that the DOJ has filed this claim against Apple. It's making the industry more competitive because:

1. Publishers have now been released from the draconian grip of Apple and are free to explore other business models and other relationships with competing retailers.
2. Prices will not be flat in the way Apple wanted as they tried to force agency on the entire industry. The wholesale model is back and alive. That means retailers have some power to price some books cheaper than others.

People who say there's no evidence against Apple are like the same people who deny the holocaust. Delusional.

Apple absolutely colluded with the world's largest publishers. Led them into a framework to change how they could do business in the industry. They're goal? To eliminate price competition. Jobs admitted they couldn't be competitive if this didn't happen. The publishers admitted they didn't want to compete on price. This stuff is in writing in communications between them. Apple rounded them all up and got them all on board. They implemented strict contracting policies punishing any publisher who sold books under a non-agency model. Apple also forced in higher new release and best seller pricing tiers to jack up prices. And many more things.

Apple blocked Random House Apps from being approved on the App Store to force them to sign the iBooks contract.

Steve Jobs called Dennis Morrin from iFlow "Roadkill". I knew Dennis. He was a great guy. And he's dead from cancer.

Apple needs to be punished. For consumers, the competition will be restored when eBook retailers are allowed to link to their own sites in their Apps. This is a must.

And no, as the DOJ pointed out, not every App is forced to use their In-App purchasing. Those selling physical goods don't, like Zappos. They showed an Email from Jobs wanting to retaliate against Amazon and saying to force the eBook retailers to use their payment system and take 30%.

All of this stuff is demonstrated. Wake up.
 
I find it interesting how so many "fanboys" and some others defend Apple. You people just have no idea what you're talking about, and neither does the media.

We're in the eBook business. Apple is our competitor, and so is Amazon. Stop dragging Amazon into this.

We are happy that the DOJ has filed this claim against Apple. It's making the industry more competitive because:

1. Publishers have now been released from the draconian grip of Apple and are free to explore other business models and other relationships with competing retailers.
2. Prices will not be flat in the way Apple wanted as they tried to force agency on the entire industry. The wholesale model is back and alive. That means retailers have some power to price some books cheaper than others.

People who say there's no evidence against Apple are like the same people who deny the holocaust. Delusional.

Apple absolutely colluded with the world's largest publishers. Led them into a framework to change how they could do business in the industry. They're goal? To eliminate price competition. Jobs admitted they couldn't be competitive if this didn't happen. The publishers admitted they didn't want to compete on price. This stuff is in writing in communications between them. Apple rounded them all up and got them all on board. They implemented strict contracting policies punishing any publisher who sold books under a non-agency model. Apple also forced in higher new release and best seller pricing tiers to jack up prices. And many more things.

Apple blocked Random House Apps from being approved on the App Store to force them to sign the iBooks contract.

Steve Jobs called Dennis Morrin from iFlow "Roadkill". I knew Dennis. He was a great guy. And he's dead from cancer.

Apple needs to be punished. For consumers, the competition will be restored when eBook retailers are allowed to link to their own sites in their Apps. This is a must.

And no, as the DOJ pointed out, not every App is forced to use their In-App purchasing. Those selling physical goods don't, like Zappos. They showed an Email from Jobs wanting to retaliate against Amazon and saying to force the eBook retailers to use their payment system and take 30%.

All of this stuff is demonstrated. Wake up.

It sure is a well thought out argument to simply call everyone that disagrees with you a delusional fanboy. I wish someone else had thought to bring that up first. Would have saved a lot of discussion.
 
It sure is a well thought out argument to simply call everyone that disagrees with you a delusional fanboy. I wish someone else had thought to bring that up first. Would have saved a lot of discussion.

How else can you explain anyone who denies any wrongdoing from Apple? The evidence is overwhelming. Please explain it. Please focus on the facts, and discuss that.

Here's the clincher: forget Amazon. It's not Amazon. You realize the entire industry, outside of the defendants, are behind the government?

Here's an example. Kobo filed an amicus supporting the DOJ in their full, original injunction against Apple. If the injunction is so bad for the industry, then why are we all supporting the government?

Because the media and online junkies have no idea what's going on. The people who work in this industry are completely opposite: they know what's going on and support the government. And the reason is because the DOJ has broken up a monopoly... has broken up the centralization of power... has helped to restore competition back into this market... and you, the consumer, will benefit.
 
How else can you explain anyone who denies any wrongdoing from Apple? The evidence is overwhelming. Please explain it. Please focus on the facts, and discuss that.

Or you can read all the arguments from multiple threads on this topic and focus on the actual counter-arguments instead of just dismissing anyone that disagrees with you as a delusional fanboy.

Here's the clincher: forget Amazon. It's not Amazon. You realize the entire industry, outside of the defendants, are behind the government?

You realize that you just made that up?

Here's an example. Kobo filed an amicus supporting the DOJ in their full, original injunction against Apple. If the injunction is so bad for the industry, then why are we all supporting the government?

Obviously, a large part of the industry disagrees with you.

Because the media and online junkies have no idea what's going on. The people who work in this industry are completely opposite: they know what's going on and support the government.

Hey! Look! It's the same argument. Except this time you dismiss everyone that disagrees with you as ignorant.

And the reason is because the DOJ has broken up a monopoly... has broken up the centralization of power... has helped to restore competition back into this market... and you, the consumer, will benefit.

And comments like this make me think that you aren't as informed as you claim. There was no monopoly broken up by the DOJ. And there was no centralization of power.

In your last post, the first argument you posted was equally uninformed:
1. Publishers have now been released from the draconian grip of Apple and are free to explore other business models and other relationships with competing retailers.

Nothing about that argument is reflects the reality of what happened. The publishers pushed for the change. If you disagree with that, than you are arguing that Apple did nothing wrong.
 
I'll say it again, maybe this time it will sink in. Whether or not Apple is guilty as charged is irrelevant to what I'm saying. Even if Apple was entirely guilty and admitted as much the proposed action by the DOJ is ludicrous. ;)

Still you don't get it, do you?
 
Or you can read all the arguments from multiple threads on this topic and focus on the actual counter-arguments instead of just dismissing anyone that disagrees with you as a delusional fanboy.

Show the arguments. What are they? I've seen none that have any basis in reality.

You realize that you just made that up? Obviously, a large part of the industry disagrees with you.

You realize the difference between you and me... I've been in this industry for years with direct dealings with the actors involved in this case. You, almost certainly, have no experience in this industry and are speaking from a MacBook Pro in a cafe perhaps...

I can assure you that everyone involved in this industry that I know... the thousands of contacts from small publishers, authors, and eBook retailers support the government. I have demonstrated an example of this by pointing out a powerful, dominant eBook retailer... Kobo, filed an amicus supporting fully the DOJ injunction against Apple in this case. This is a big move by Kobo because they have Apps on Apple's App Store. This was a very public move where Kobo's voice is supported by many of us who are in regular contact with each other.

So it is NOT the case that the industry disagrees with me or that I'm making this up. You're simply not saying anything at all because you have nothing to say.

Hey! Look! It's the same argument. Except this time you dismiss everyone that disagrees with you as ignorant.

The facts show that Apple colluded with industry by rounding up all the publishers in a room, acted as a ringleader, and forced agency on the entire industry. The shared goal was to eliminate price competition. Written communications between the parties show Steve Jobs, publisher execs, etc. saying they don't want to compete on price. Jobs said they couldn't compete if they had to compete on price.

Jobs publicly states in an interview that the prices on Amazon and the iBookstore would end up being the same.

Here's the material support. Apple injected a clause in the iBooks contract that stated any publisher who sells under non-agency models outside the iBookstore would be, quoting directly, "severely financially punished". Apple did this to a) force agency industry wide b) ensure that all the publishers would cooperate, because they wanted assurances from Apple that they would make sure everyone would play fair elsewhere after they all signed the iBooks agreement.

All this came out in the trial, and was supported by written communications between the parties and witness testimony.

And comments like this make me think that you aren't as informed as you claim. There was no monopoly broken up by the DOJ. And there was no centralization of power.

In your last post, the first argument you posted was equally uninformed:

Nothing about that argument is reflects the reality of what happened. The publishers pushed for the change. If you disagree with that, than you are arguing that Apple did nothing wrong.

First, the monopoly I stated was in the sense that Apple moved to have complete control over the price of eBooks and the way the books were sold. This was a result of the centralization of power they acquired by colluding with industry and setting draconian, now illegal clauses in the contract. After signing with Apple, publishers couldn't sign deals with any retailer unless it was agency along with other concessions. No more wholesale model. No more ability of retailers being able to set pricing. It must be agency.

And Apple hiked the prices of new releases and bestsellers and forced these pricing tiers on the publishers to jack up prices. The DOJ demonstrated pricing went up after Apple entered the game.

The publishers AND Apple pushed for all this to happen. They are ALL guilty, which is why they were ALL found guilty. Not just Apple. And not just the publishers.

What also came out in the trial was that Apple blocked Random House's Apps from being approved for the App Store to force them to sign their iBooks contract. Random House held out because they weren't buying into Apple's BS. They ended up signing it. These facts came out in the trial and was supported by written communications that incriminated Eddie Cue, who actually wrote Emails saying this stuff.

There's a lot more evidence if you actually went and read and researched this properly. Rather just saying stuff off the cuff because you presumably like to argue on the Internet... yet there's a massive chasm that exists on your end where you lack facts and background because you haven't researched this other than reading the same headline news articles like everyone else.

The result of this trial is that consumers are going to win because the industry has been freed of being forced into 1 business model where retailers lose any power to price the products. Price competition is restored as is the ability of everyone to explore new business models.

When it comes to linking to stores inside Apps, that's also a major issue that appears to be prohibited because Apple took aim at Amazon and the eBook industry.
 
Last edited:
Show the arguments. What are they? I've seen none that have any basis in reality.

Again, many threads on the topic. No need to start over here.

You realize the difference between you and me... I've been in this industry for years with direct dealings with the actors involved in this case.

You could claim to be Eric Holder, and it wouldn't make any difference to me. What I see are you continually misstating your inaccurate claims as fact.

You, almost certainly, have no experience in this industry and are speaking from a MacBook Pro in a cafe perhaps...

Another demonstration that you are willing to draw conclusions with absolutely no evidence.

I can assure you that everyone involved in this industry that I know... the thousands of contacts from small publishers, authors, and eBook retailers support the government. I have demonstrated an example of this by pointing out a powerful, dominant eBook retailer... Kobo, filed an amicus supporting fully the DOJ injunction against Apple in this case. This is a big move by Kobo because they have Apps on Apple's App Store. This was a very public move where Kobo's voice is supported by many of us who are in regular contact with each other.

So it is NOT the case that the industry disagrees with me or that I'm making this up.

With the obvious exception of the part of the industry that aligned with Apple.

You're simply not saying anything at all because you have nothing to say.

I've had quite a lot to say. You just choose to keep talking out of ignorance instead of spending the time to read my actual claims.

The facts show that Apple colluded with industry by rounding up all the publishers in a room, acted as a ringleader, and forced agency on the entire industry.

That's completely made up. Please present one piece of evidence that Apple brought all the publishers in a room. And, of course, 40% of the industry isn't "the entire industry."

The shared goal was to eliminate price competition. Written communications between the parties show Steve Jobs, publisher execs, etc. saying they don't want to compete on price. Jobs said they couldn't compete if they had to compete on price.

Yep. Apple didn't think they could successfully compete on price. And yet, you maintain that Amazon has nothing to do with this. Huh. The fact that their pricing strategy doesn't allow new competitors to successfully enter the market seems pretty relevant to me.

Jobs publicly states in an interview that the prices on Amazon and the iBookstore would end up being the same.

Yep. Probably because he was aware that they negotiated an MFN clause. Which Judge Cote confirmed as a legal business strategy.

Here's the material support. Apple injected a clause in the iBooks contract that stated any publisher who sells under non-agency models outside the iBookstore would be, quoting directly, "severely financially punished". Apple did this to a) force agency industry wide b) ensure that all the publishers would cooperate, because they wanted assurances from Apple that they would make sure everyone would play fair elsewhere after they all signed the iBooks agreement.

Link?

First, the monopoly I stated was in the sense that Apple moved to have complete control over the price of eBooks and the way the books were sold.

So, in a made up sense? First, that's not a monopoly by any definition. Second, Apple had no control over the price of eBooks or the way they were sold outside of the iBookstore.

This was a result of the centralization of power they acquired by colluding with industry and setting draconian, now illegal clauses in the contract. After signing with Apple, publishers couldn't sign deals with any retailer unless it was agency along with other concessions. No more wholesale model. No more ability of retailers being able to set pricing. It must be agency.

Again, that's not true.

And Apple hiked the prices of new releases and bestsellers and forced these pricing tiers on the publishers to jack up prices. The DOJ demonstrated pricing went up after Apple entered the game.

Again, you don't even understand what agency pricing is. Apple did not set prices at all.

The publishers AND Apple pushed for all this to happen. They are ALL guilty, which is why they were ALL found guilty. Not just Apple. And not just the publishers.

Again, you are wrong. Only Apple has been found guilty. The publishers all settled without admitting guilt.

What also came out in the trial was that Apple blocked Random House's Apps from being approved for the App Store to force them to sign their iBooks contract. Random House held out because they weren't buying into Apple's BS. They ended up signing it. These facts came out in the trial and was supported by written communications that incriminated Eddie Cue, who actually wrote Emails saying this stuff.

Yep. Are you implying this is illegal?

There's a lot more evidence if you actually went and read and researched this properly. Rather just saying stuff off the cuff because you presumably like to argue on the Internet... yet there's a massive chasm that exists on your end where you lack facts and background because you haven't researched this other than reading the same headline news articles like everyone else.

And, again, you draw a conclusion without any facts. Seems to be a trend.

The result of this trial is that consumers are going to win because the industry has been freed of being forced into 1 business model where retailers lose any power to price the products. Price competition is restored as is the ability of everyone to explore new business models.

Price competition never left. It just moved from the retailers to the publishers. Which is legal, as confirmed by Judge Cote.

Maybe you like to compete on price as a retailer yourself. But the fact is that competition actually increased after Apple entered the market. Retailers other that Apple and Amazon actually made more money and increased their market share after Apple entered the market.

And, no offense, I care more about the content producers and the device manufacturers. The retailers are the most expendable part of the equation.

When it comes to linking to stores inside Apps, that's also a major issue that appears to be prohibited because Apple took aim at Amazon and the eBook industry.

Sounds like you want to play in Apple's house, but not follow their rules. Unfortunately, you don't have that right.
 
What you don't get is that the claim I was talking was the one where you said that nothing has been proved.

By the way, bilingual?

Yes, I know you believe because the court has proclaimed Apple to be guilty, this actually means they are guilty. Of course this is far from the truth. Why do you think there is an appeals process? Untll they admit guilt or lose thier appeal they are not guilty in any final legal sense of the word. If they lose the appeal and are found guilty by the legal system, that still doesn't mean they are actually guilty. Innocent people are convicted and sent to prison all the time. :) By the way...
Bilingual means you speak two or more languages. I would like to learn to speak Spanish so I can be bilingual too. Will you teach me? :)
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.