Apple Accuses Epic Games of 'Willful, Brazen, and Unlawful Conduct' in Countersuit Asking for Breach of Contract Damages

[Carnegie]

I am curious what these damages are that Apple claims they are seeking.....

Lost revenue from Epic's payment system?
Legal fees if they win?
Repetitional damage? (I mean, Apple has been digging that hole themselves)

Lost revenue from Epic games after banning them? (I can't imagine that would have a leg to stand on)

Honestly just seems like a lot of noise.... you can't say Oh Boo Hoo, you focussed investigators on our illegal activity, I'm suing.... so its got to be something else that is tangible.... to which I don't see anything beyond legal fees. They already took their prescribed action for violations - they banned them and cut them off.

Epic violated its agreements with Apple when it used a hotfix to make an alternative payment method available in-app for (iOS) Fortnite. People have used that payment method - and presumably are still using that payment method - to make in-app purchases in Fortnite. Epic is thusly denying Apple money which Apple is contractually entitled to.

People still have version 13.40 of Fortnite on their iOS devices. So they can still play it and make in-app purchases. Epic also removed the Apple payment option for those Fortnite users when Apple terminated Epic's ('84) developer account. So those who still have that version on their iOS devices can only pay for in-app purchases through Epic.

Epic is effectively stealing from Apple by using Apple's IP without abiding by the terms under which Apple agreed to let Epic use its IP.

 

[Spock]

Apple: If you don't want to make APIs, get out of the OS business
Sick and tired of this excuse that the App Store exists to pay for the OS, which I subsidized with the purchase of a $1200 phone.

If the App Store pays for everything Apple does, then stop charging me sky-high prices for the devices I buy.

If you only had another platform option that allows the freedoms you seem to crave..

 

[dguisinger]

Sorry dude, I lived in those times as a computer engineer, Apple was a small company with less resources. Apple wanted to hold onto the Apple II and III sales because it was their cash cow at Apple. Steve wanted state of the art hardware, like the Lisa computer that cost $10000. The Sully was top CEO of the time, just because he sold soda does not make him a bad CEO. It is a business and those who have the best wins. So the judge said that Apple could not patient the look and feel of a product be it a windows OS and a mouse. Do you think today if I made a computer and took Apples code, which Microsoft had full access while writing Microsoft Excel in 1983 and made a system, you don't think that Apple would sue the pants off of me in court.

Steve learned a second valuable lesson when he created the NeXt company it is hard to get customers with a $10000 computer no mater how good it looks or works. People complain now about Apple hardware prices

Business is war.

Again, Apple had no idea what they were doing. The visionary was gone, it was bean counters and people who didn't know the business put in charge by shareholders. Developing multiple lines that overlapped (IIgs, Lisa, Mac) and weren't compatible with each other, and a fragmented line of Macs that were too expensive to produce for the size of their market. "Sorry Dude" you were an engineer and have no clue what they did wrong. They didn't fail in the late 80's and 90's because Microsoft built a poor copy of their GUI. They failed because their business model, hardware fragmentation, lack of compatibility, and inability to release an OS upgrade for nearly 10 years as they struggled to get even basic multithreading to work in very public view.

Seriously... Have you ever used Windows 1.0 or 2.0? I have, it was a laughable rip-off. 3.1 was okay. It wasn't until 1995 that Microsoft hit a home run, and they weren't the only game in town at that point either. OS/2 plus unix variations, as well as several other DOS-Based windowing shells in the early 90s. To blame Microsoft for Apple's failure to execute is laughable.

 

[ArtOfWarfare]

That’s 30 times more than the best CEO on the planet.

Based on what? Apple has rotted under Tim Cook. Look at Apple's product lines and sources of revenues in 2000, 2010, and 2020.

Apple's 2000 products are doing okay in 2010, but they're been dwarfed by the iPod and iPhone.

Apple's 2020 lineup? Virtually unchanged from 2010. They added in the HomePod, AirPods, and Apple Watch. Three devices that are nothing compared to the iPod, iPhone, and iPad (even the Apple TV, itself something of a failure, has done better than some of these newer products).

Apple is a one ring circus - a house of cards. The iPhone will fail someday, and when it does, Apple has nothing to fall on. Tim Cook is solely responsible as the one who allowed this to happen.

 

[LawJolla]

This is what Steve Jobs, Steve Woz and Apple learned in 1995. What is the most important people that you have in your company? Good corporate lawyers. Microsoft had better ones and they lost the case to Bill Gates over Windows. Apple almost went out of business in 1998. So they now have had the best corporate lawyers money can buy for the last 20 years. One thing Apple learns is to fix mistakes and try not to repeat it. It's not the engineers in your company it is the lawyers that keep you company out of solvency.

In the legal world, Cravath (Epic's attorneys) are considered the best. Truth is they're all of high quality and doesn't actually matter.

 

[jlocker]

Again, Apple had no idea what they were doing. The visionary was gone, it was bean counters and people who didn't know the business put in charge by shareholders. Developing multiple lines that overlapped (IIgs, Lisa, Mac) and weren't compatible with each other, and a fragmented line of Macs that were too expensive to produce for the size of their market. "Sorry Dude" you were an engineer and have no clue what they did wrong. They didn't fail in the late 80's and 90's because Microsoft built a poor copy of their GUI. They failed because their business model, hardware fragmentation, lack of compatibility, and inability to release an OS upgrade for nearly 10 years as they struggled to get even basic multithreading to work in very public view.

Seriously... Have you ever used Windows 1.0 or 2.0? I have, it was a laughable rip-off. 3.1 was okay. It wasn't until 1995 that Microsoft hit a home run, and they weren't the only game in town at that point either. OS/2 plus unix variations, as well as several other DOS-Based windowing shells in the early 90s. To blame Microsoft for Apple's failure to execute is laughable.

Well in any case, Apple has learned lessons and one is having good lawyers on your team.

 

[I7guy]

Based on what? Apple has rotted under Tim Cook. Look at Apple's product lines and sources of revenues in 2000, 2010, and 2020.

Apple's 2000 products are doing okay in 2010, but they're been dwarfed by the iPod and iPhone.

Apple's 2020 lineup? Virtually unchanged from 2010. They added in the HomePod, AirPods, and Apple Watch. Three devices that are nothing compared to the iPod, iPhone, and iPad (even the Apple TV, itself something of a failure, has done better than some of these newer products).

Apple is a one ring circus - a house of cards. The iPhone will fail someday, and when it does, Apple has nothing to fall on. Tim Cook is solely responsible as the one who allowed this to happen.

The flip side of the coin is that Cook has expanded Apple into alternate streams of revenue. Revenue doesn't grow unless Apple produces products/services that people want to buy. So while you may not like the Apple of today, the reality of where Apple is at is not anywhere near this doom and gloom scenario.

 

[Baymowe335]

I'd venture to say legislation will tame Apple for its arrogance and dominance this decade. It has already started. It is inevitable at this point. Same thing will happen to Google.

Wrong, again. Apple is not only in the right, they typically win disputes of principle.

 

[dguisinger]

Based on what? Apple has rotted under Tim Cook. Look at Apple's product lines and sources of revenues in 2000, 2010, and 2020.

Apple's 2000 products are doing okay in 2010, but they're been dwarfed by the iPod and iPhone.

Apple's 2020 lineup? Virtually unchanged from 2010. They added in the HomePod, AirPods, and Apple Watch. Three devices that are nothing compared to the iPod, iPhone, and iPad (even the Apple TV, itself something of a failure, has done better than some of these newer products).

Apple is a one ring circus - a house of cards. The iPhone will fail someday, and when it does, Apple has nothing to fall on. Tim Cook is solely responsible as the one who allowed this to happen.

I would agree with that - they are propping things up with "services revenue"... which ... most of Apple's services are failures, its only the App Store propping those up in a "generic" category.

Its very much like how Jack Welsh destroyed GE by moving the company more and more towards financial instruments instead of engineering. He was hailed as a genius because during the time he was there, they made record profits. After he was gone, GE basically collapsed into rubble and is nothing close to its former glory.

 

[Glideslope]

Sweeney is gone soon. Such an Epic Miscalculation of strategy is unrecoverable.

Apple has all the cards. Follow your signed agreement Epic. Return, and then take you issues through proper means.

 

[ryecoke]

Too bad this isn't Steve Jobs' Apple anymore. He would had already bought this mom-and-pop shop called Epic just to shut them down. After all, they are currently worth like what, a seed of an Apple?

ummm.. why would Tencent and Tim Sweeny just sell Epic to Apple?
and why would Apple throw away millions and millions (potentially billions) of dollars over a petty feud? and piss off their shareholders in the meantime?

Let's be realistic please.

 

[now i see it]

It's amusing and loathingly predictable to hear  lawyers pulling counter arguments out their arse. Their rebuttal is laughable to even a grade schooler - and they're flinging it up on the judge's podium like the judge is a moron.
Id say they're doing more harm than good.

 

[weup togo]

Apple says Epic made $600M on the App Store with Fortnite. This means Apple has extracted over a quarter billion dollars in rent from Epic for https downloads and payment processing. Let that sink in.

 

[Scipster]

Funny. I remember the same events as Apple giving tons of free advertising to Epic by including them onstage in the keynote. Guess we each see things differently.

The truth is it was probably beneficial for both parties. Epic showed what an iPhone could do and Apple showed what a creative developer could do.

Yes! I completely agree! Apple made developers what they are today, and creative developers made Apple what it is today. Epic would not be the same without Apple, and Apple would not be the same without Epic. No one is denying the Epic made billions through the App Store just as no one is denying that Apple benefited from the billions of Apps on its App Store. As you mention, the arrangement is beneficial to both parties and hopefully they can continue to work with each other even after the dust settles.

That said, I have a feeling Apple invited Epic to the event rather than Epic asking Apple for a few minutes of their Keynote.

 

[I7guy]

Apple says Epic made $600M on the App Store with Fortnite. This means Apple has extracted over a quarter billion dollars in rent from Epic for https downloads and payment processing. Let that sink in.

Seems like there was a lot of money to be made with this game. Epic made a bundle and Apple made some as well. Seems like it worked out for all involved.

 

[macfacts]

Compare and contrast the following
1) if you want to buy our oil, you must use our railroad for delivery

2) if you want to buy/sell iOS apps, you have to use our store for delivery.

 

[jlocker]

It all comes down to one thing and it always has Money!

 

[tegranjeet]

If Epic was doing this "just for the money", they would have reverted to Apple payment in Fortnite for the time being.
They are in it for something much deeper and fundamental than just for the money, a war against walled gardens.

Heh, this is nothing more than a power grab.

Epic can't stand that Apple has so much power, and it's not just money, klout is worth more and is very difficult to quantify.

Same with everyone really...governments, corporations, and individuals all want power and adoration. Throw in a just a pinch of self-righteous greed (on both sides), and, well I hope you have some popcorn for the show.

When one powerful force sees another, this is life, dog eat dog, better kill the other to gain it's power.

Unfortunately it seems Epic is outmatched at this point. It's hard to go mano a mano with Apple (hint, it's why the forces are stirring).

It will be a sad day when Apple is ganged upon by other corps and governments and ultimately outmatched by numbers and reduced. Personally I would love for Apple to absolutely dominate like they are but more. When power reaches new heights, it's amazing. Think major hurricanes, winter blizzards, Tiger Woods, Apple.

 

[projectle]

Epic will respond to these claims of unfair business practices after they buy exclusively for another Kickstarter funded game that promised Steam keys.

Here’s the thing... Having been on the side of one of those “exclusivity” contracts... You can absolutely give keys to whomever for any reason on any platform. They are treated as promotional keys, and in exchange you pay the contracted split. You can then grandfather existing customers into the new contract free of charge.

If a developer had morals, they would uphold their promises to their customers and to their contracted partners. Just offer customers a choice if they genuinely want Steam over Epic, and then just pay the promotional keys rate to Epic. More often than not, they see the dollar signs and would rather keep every dollar for themselves and say “but we gave you what you purchased!”

 

[I7guy]

Compare and contrast the following
1) if you want to buy our oil, you must use our railroad for delivery

2) if you want to buy/sell iOS apps, you have to use our store for delivery.

If you want to use electricity you must use our transmission lines, but you can pick your provider. If you want to play a game, you can use any one of 5 or 6 methods of playing the same game. Seems equivalent to me.

 

[Scipster]

Compare and contrast the following
1) if you want to buy our oil, you must use our railroad for delivery

2) if you want to buy/sell iOS apps, you have to use our store for delivery.

If only Teddy were here today...

Source: https://steemit.com/corporatism/@geke/teddy-roosevelt-was-never-a-trust-buster

 

[true god]

Glad to hear Apple squealing. Their unlawful monopoly should be broken. And it will be.

 

[I7guy]

Glad to hear Apple squealing. Their unlawful monopoly should be broken. And it will be.

Doesn't seem like Apple is squealing at all. And whether this is a monopoly and other questions, I guess will be determined in the coming months.

 

[jlocker]

So you have a store, like android store 7 years ago that is not a walled gardened store and I download an App off of your store and it steals all my information and trashes my device. Yea I would not want a walled garden store also. I also like to jump out of a plane with no parachute. Live on that edge!

 

[Scipster]

If you want to use electricity you must use our transmission lines, but you can pick your provider. If you want to play a game, you can use any one of 5 or 6 methods of playing the same game. Seems equivalent to me.

Problem is, those transmission lines are price regulated by the government. Should the government regulate App Store commissions too? It might be time to consider them public utilities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_utility