Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
M

mikedman_ak

Guest
yeah...but

Originally posted by cmoney


Respect is good and all, but I think Apple would be fools if they still maintained feature-parity with the OS X version. This is obviously a move to get Macs in the pro-film/video market and they're not gonna be successful at that unless they make Macs the system everybody lusts after.

Maybe Apple's taking a page from Microsoft's book: embrace and extend! Buy up all the great video software and stop making it on PCs! Then provide great new features and integration so people forget that PCs were once an option. Sounds like a plan to me.

If apple pulls the plug on the linux version right away companies like weta will probably never buy anything from them again. Until the OSX version supports render farms, and the other advanced features the linux version supports now Apple would be foolish to leave their new customers hanging.
 

DarthMoridin

macrumors newbie
Feb 5, 2002
2
0
Southern California
I like this

This sounds really good to me. If Apple puts out a killer OS X version of Shake (iShake anyone?) it will bring more converts to the platform. They'll probably also at some point release another consumer app using the technology, or enchance iDVD/iMovie with it. This might make Adobe mad, but I for one believe that Apple probably has a Photoshop killer floating around Cupertino. Given how FCP blew premiere out of the water and is now starting to tread on After Effects territory, I would wager that an Apple image editor would blow everything else away. They already had some editing in iPhoto that they dropped because of an Adobe fit.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Macromedia Final Cut+Astarte+Spruce+Nothing Real+Unix=The missing link in the convergence of many major media industries. The black art is now in the hands of the masses, but are they up to it?

From a quick read of all our posts it seems we would rather jaw, surf and dream about processor speed than learn how to write and direct like the masters.
 

networkman

macrumors regular
Jan 1, 2002
247
0
california, usa
good point

your computer is your paintbrush and that is all

now repeat that with me... unless you want to become a techie like me and get paid to fix "paintbrushes" instead of making art
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Don't expect a pixar renderfarm of macs, pixar is buying some 200 IBM machines running linux, to phase out their Sun's. I'd give a link to the article but its on IBM's intranet.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Cool?

Mac-users think it's "cool" that Apple stiffles competition and drops versions to other operating systems? Yikes, Apple and it's users are even more disgusting than microsoft and the win-idiots...
 
J

Joey2000

Guest
This is what will happen....

OK...

A: cross platform support..
Apple will keep supporting at minimum. The Linux Version and IRIX version (untill SGI keel over as they will)... the NT version is another shakier matter... one side of the argument is many people who run it now have it NT will want it to stay... but they can very eaisly (and for free) move to the Linux version... Tremor on the other hand (the expensive version) is only NT based... so thats a bit shakier (no pun intended).....

but one of the reasons big houses like Shake is because its CROSS PLATFORM...

and you have to think about the investment big places like Weta have in the software...
Weta has 90 something GUI licences.. 90 x AUD$20000... total... a LOT of Cash... plus they whole 2D production pipeline for the next 2 movies rests on it...

the PR value of this to apple is massive also... mark my words apple.com will have LOTR on its front page in the next 12 months...


B: iShake....
ok... there will never be a consumer compositing program... ..aww but they have iMovie blah blah...
Sorry, bu compositing is just TOO DAMN HARD for the consumer... it aint going to happen... what would be the point anyway... hey now mom and pop can comp little jonny over a different background.."look, were in Dellawere"
stupid idea.. and apple would know this...

apple can only just make video editing easy enough for joe public to get their heads around... video editing is by far the EAISEST part of the post pipline... Compositing is a very hard, timeconsuming technical excercise..

C: apple buying discreet also...
OK.. while getting Cleaner back would be cool...
NO.
Discreet make crappy old monster machines... people only still use them because monkey ass advertising agency clients think are cool..
anyone who actually composites knows shake and other next gen programs kill it..

apple made the right call here...

D:Apple rolls Shake into FCP.
perhaps.. some features/code.
but Shake is a completely different type of program.. its like Word vs InDesign.. they both deal with text, and do some of the same things... but completely different types of programs


....

the way i see it the most likely course of action is Apple ports Shake (nothing real have been working on this since January 2001 so this may already be done)

they will put the apple touch on the interface (something that would help Shake, but the current inteface isnt bad by anymeans)

Tremor (the highend turnkey version running on NT with HD IO) will cease to exist in its current form..
its functionality (EDL conform etc) will be rolled into Shake... and instead of being a turn key system it will be scalable in the same vein as FCP (DV IO out of the box, the rest depending on extra hardware, HD SDI etc) all from the same base package..

perhaps most importantly it will get an Apple price tag... bringing it down from AUD$20000 to between AUD 1k and 5k

they will sell a ship load because people already respect the program... but the midrange and lowend (read AE and combustion buyers) balk at the price...

They will kik ass.... and all will be good in the world....
 

thedude

macrumors member
Sep 22, 2001
53
0
Hmm...

I've got to tellyou, I'm not sure about abandoning the other platforms. Shake is great and they were supposed to have an osX version out this year (according to their website and at siggraph) but to shaft all the other companies that have spent some serious money on seats for the program, i don' tknow...

It would be a big error on apples part to hack the shake code and put it into their next prosumer software release. Besides, it's a node based composite package. Different philosophies. It would be even better if they could just get Maya up to speed with the other platforms and get Steve to pull some of his weight at Pixar and get renderman back on the mac. If the rumors that Tremmor dev. is being stopped, that would seem like such a waste of cool tech.

NR's websight is down too, so it'll be interesting to see it changed to "Apple's Shake and Tremmor, if you don't have macs, too bad..."
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
been done before

Who knows right now, but this might be like when SGI bought out Alias|Wavefront. At that time Alias|Wavefront only made products for SGI/IRIX. But as a subsidirary A|W has remained doing their own thing and what is best for their software (Maya now), now on IRIX, NT, Linux, MacOSX.

I wish we could get some sort of details on this buyout, but I assume that it might go something like that. Since Maya is now on MacOSX and you can now have Shake and Maya together... Apple might make its way back into visual effects studios. The real question is why would Apple want to take on visual effects as it has been declining in the last few years (speaking on a high end level).

3dguy
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
I think I see a plan here, hmmmm

Apple buys Shake, stealthily including parts of it in other Mac software
Hmmm, yes
Pixar, working on its next big film needs a serious render farm.
The picture becomes clear.

The entire Mac world, one big processor for Pixar, all working in the background without our knowledge!!!
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
I think I see a plan here, hmmmm

Apple buys Shake, stealthily including parts of it in other Mac software
Hmmm, yes
Pixar, working on its next big film needs a serious render farm.
The picture becomes clear.

The entire Mac world, one big processor for Pixar, all working in the background without our knowledge!!!
 

748s

macrumors 6502a
Dec 14, 2001
692
31
Tiger Bay
get over it

how pleasant to see some computer users squealing like stuck pigs because their platform of choice is under threat. now you know what it feels like. deal with it, don't come crying to these forums with your sob story. apple is coming on through, if you don't like it get out of the way.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Re: This is what will happen....

Originally posted by Joey2000
but one of the reasons big houses like Shake is because its CROSS PLATFORM...

And this is the very reason why Apple will completely phase out the other platforms over time. Maybe not immediately, so as not to upset some existing customers, but they MUST do this. Why? Because as long as the software is cross-platform and has feature parity across all systems, as Shake does now, there is no legit reason why any customer would switch over to OS X to run Shake. Especially if they have an investment already in other platforms. I don't think Apple is interested in selling a few copies of $10,000 software to a few dozen elite VFX houses who can afford it - that would be a huge waste of their time and money. No, they want A) to sell something more "mass-market" (think Final Cut Pro) and B) they want to make people switch over to the Mac. That can't be done with them selling Shake as-is.

Plus, many VFX houses have hard-core "IRIX-heads" who are almost as fanatic about Unix as us Mac folks are about Macintosh :) They won't switch if Apple keeps catering to them by keeping the software on their platform, and it's those people who need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the next phase of visual effects software, IMHO. It's time for this kind of software to be moved into the hands of more people, instead of just those who can afford it. Compositing is complex, but there really is no reason for the current insane prices to be charged anymore as long as hardware is not the determining factor.

As long as companies like Weta can keep their existing pipeline intact for a short while, they won't be too upset. Apple can phase out the other platforms over time, and Weta can consider moving the pipeline over to something new, which is ALWAYS an option at VFX houses (they're always checking out the latest and greatest software, hoping that it will improve their pipeline). They'd especially be interested if they can get something that improves things for their artists and costs less, entirely possible if Apple offers the software at a better price, bundled with their hardware and drops the "per-station" network rendering fee and makes it free like Discreet does.

B: iShake....
ok... there will never be a consumer compositing program... ..aww but they have iMovie blah blah...
Sorry, bu compositing is just TOO DAMN HARD for the consumer... it aint going to happen... what would be the point anyway... hey now mom and pop can comp little jonny over a different background.."look, were in Dellawere"
stupid idea.. and apple would know this...

It's too hard because the programs available to do it are too hard. I think there are ways to make compositing much easier, maybe not "iComp" easy, but certainly better than reading a flowchart and connecting/reconnecting tiny little nodes all the time. As much as I admire Shake, it certainly won't win any awards for interface design, that's for sure. I hope Apple can do something that will make the process easier for everyone, including hard-core compositors, without "dumbing down" the whole thing, which I think is absolutely possible.

My predictions? I think they'll phase out the other platforms completely over the next few months, maybe a year for the Linux version, revamp the interface of Shake completely, and drop the price to around the same price as FCP, maybe slightly more ($1000-$1300 US). They'll completely drop Tremor, and have Shake (or whatever it gets renamed to, the name "Shake" kind of sucks IMHO) do the same I/O features with Firewire as standard and upgradeable with hardware like CineWave and such for doing uncompressed SD and HD.
 

cryptochrome

macrumors regular
Jan 4, 2002
123
0
We've been assuming that shake/tremor will be either rolled into Final Cut Pro, or ported with a mac touch. Actually that's pretty much a shoo-in. But what if there's more? What if they're going to use this technology in an iApp? Consider the possibilities:

Video editing is a tricky business which iMovie can barely bring down to the consumer level. 2D compositing is a very technical matter which is right out. Just making the separate layers of video requires specialized photography using color keying. But I saw an interesting article on Slashdot today (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/02/09/050207&mode=thread&tid=152) which talks about a camera technology called 3DV that allows you to capture depth information in video in real time, allowing you to easily create depth masks. The technology is simple and could be put in a consumer level device. Such as, perhaps, an apple branded digital video/still camera. Suddenly 2D compositing and editing is just a matter of the right software and interface, rather than complicated equipment and sets.

Not only that, it may also be possible now to start doing (basic) animation at a consumer level. There was a recent movie called Waking Life (http://www.flatblackfilms.com/), made entirely on macs using a custom Quicktime program called Rotoshop, which has the distinction of being the first full-length independent animated film. It used rotoscoping with software interpolation (You draw the animation frame over a video frame to help you animate motion, then use software interpolation to fill in intermediate frames). All they needed was a wacom tablet, a reference video, and the right software (and some artistic talent of course). More complicated software could potentially do much more. iAnimate? Animation Studio Pro? It's not out of the question. 2D animation is one of the few video technologies Apple doesn't have it's hand in yet, and one of the most tedious and specialized by far.

I don't think Apple has actually gone this far yet. I'm not sure if they've even thought about it. But I think perhaps they should.
 

3G4N

macrumors regular
Jan 24, 2002
123
0
3rd star to the right
tcsh

cool!! Shake's CLI is tcsh! just like OSX!

another reason to learn tcsh better...

more from the manual...
"Nothing reals .iff format is not the same as the Amiga format with
the same extension, although they share certain structural similarities.
The NR .iff format is licensed to A|W for use in Maya, which means
Shake is ideally suited to work with Maya. Since Shake deals with this
format internally, you will get best performance by maintaining your
intermediate images in the format as well. It can eb 8-, 16-, or 32-bits
per channel, as well as maintain logarithmic information, alpha, and Z
channels."

QT is/was only supported in the NT version... (imports img sequences).

just some intetesting tidbits...
 

gregorypierce

macrumors regular
Jan 28, 2002
162
0
Leave Discreet right where it is :)

Hopefully if Apple is going to purchase something, they pick up a better modelling package than 3D Studio Max :)
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.