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Original poster
Apr 12, 2001
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AppleInsider reports that Apple detailed their use of a JavaScript framework called SproutCore at WWDC last week.

SproutCore is an "open source, platform-independent, Cocoa-inspired JavaScript framework for creating web applications that look and feel like Desktop applications". Apple also contributed to performance updates and added new functionality to the SproutCore framework, which serves as the basis for their new MobileMe web-applications. Apple describes the user experience for their new MobileMe web applications as Desktop class, providing features such as drag and drop, click and drag, and keyboard shortcuts (guided tour video).

Apple's interest in SproutCore is, in part, to reduce their dependence on Adobe's Flash player, which traditionally is used for more interactive content on the web.
Those frameworks offer prebuilt code that has been polished to work on all browsers, making it easier for the developer to concentrate on what their web page should be doing rather than repeatedly reinventing the wheel for various low level functions. In that respect, open JavaScript frameworks can replace Flash without requiring any secondary plugin runtime because they are simply open JavaScript that runs in the browser directly.
Apple has also notably resisted adding Flash support to the iPhone, and made significant efforts to optimize Javascript in future versions of Safari. These improvements should trickle down into the iPhone's mobile Safari as well.

The article makes the leap that SproutCore represents "Cocoa for Windows" suggesting that Apple may use the tool to develop cross-platform web-versions of its productivity applications, such as iWork, but this appears to be speculative. In a related note, a new startup called 280 Slides has introduced a web-based PowerPoint/Keynote presentation application. 280 Slides was founded by two former Apple employees and also utilizes a Cocoa-inspired framework called Objective-J/Cappuccino.



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aforty

macrumors 65816
Nov 27, 2007
1,431
694
Brooklyn, NY
That's all fine and well but nothing is going to replace all the thousands of sites currently using flash including popular video sites such as YouTube.
 

bacaramac

macrumors 65816
Dec 29, 2007
1,421
81
I guess this means that we will not see Flash in the iPhone (atleast from Apple) as it looks like they are moving to a better solution.

My guess is this new framework looks and feels like flash without a plugin and is probably more efficient then flash.
 

aforty

macrumors 65816
Nov 27, 2007
1,431
694
Brooklyn, NY
so is this saying you could run flash in the iphone withhout actually using flash?

No, this is javascript functionality already available but optimized and dumped into a framework so programmers don't have to manually write things like "drag and drop." That's all this is replacing.

Apple still needs flash, just for web compatibility.
 

Macsterguy

macrumors 6502a
Jun 5, 2007
706
24
Texas
Seeing is believing...

With the performance of .Mac over the years, one has to wonder.

Will the name change to MobileMe be enough? To quote Mr. Jobs: "This time, I think we got it right".

Well, let's all hope so...
 

kornyboy

macrumors 68000
Sep 27, 2004
1,529
0
Knoxville, TN (USA)
Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

I'm excited to get my hands on the new MobileMe Apps and see how well they work. It will be interesting to see different user experiences across
several different browsers and both windows and mac computers.
 

runbadscott

macrumors newbie
Jun 16, 2008
2
0
You can't stream audio and/or video with JavaScript!

You can't stream audio and/or video with JavaScript! This is bad news for Flash developers.
 

arn

macrumors god
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
16,268
5,477
I think talk of it being a Flash replacement is a bit overstated... but more showing where Apple is making their investments.

arn
 

techlover828

macrumors 68020
Jun 28, 2007
2,358
1
Maine
I just though of something, if mozilla creates a "firefox mobile" for the iphone won't it be able to incorporate flash (plus probably be a lot better than safari)?
 

Virgil-TB2

macrumors 65816
Aug 3, 2007
1,143
1
You explain to me then how you're going to access a Flash enabled site from your iPhone then.
If by Flash enabled you mean for videos as stated above, all the website has to do it use regular old HTML and throw the Flash code out.

It's just a couple of lines of code in HTML 5.0 and you don't need the Flash video plug-in anymore. The sites that *don't* do this are just foolish and don't deserve your business IMO.

The very fact that the millions of new iPhone users won't be able to see Flash videos will force websites to use HTML instead..
 

aforty

macrumors 65816
Nov 27, 2007
1,431
694
Brooklyn, NY
If by Flash enabled you mean for videos as stated above, all the website has to do it use regular old HTML and throw the Flash code out.

It's just a couple of lines of code in HTML 5.0 and you don't need the Flash video plug-in anymore. The sites that *don't* do this are just foolish and don't deserve your business IMO.

The very fact that the millions of new iPhone users won't be able to see Flash videos will force websites to use HTML instead..

That's wishful iPhone-fanboy thinking. You honestly think that YouTube and thousands of other sites will adopt Apple's glorified javascript-include and dump all their existing flash content for a few million iPhone users?

Com'on, get real.
 

Eddyisgreat

macrumors 601
Oct 24, 2007
4,851
1
I guess this is Apples answer to Microsoft's "SilverLight" (flash wanna be) as well as Adobe's "Air" platform (which is extremely capable, IMO).

Here we go with yet another *-war (format war, os war, mac vs. pc war, iraq war).

I'll need silverlight to open MSN.com
SproutCore to get to Apple.com
and Flash to get to every thing else.

Great.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G4
Jan 5, 2006
11,870
703
Redondo Beach, California
so is this saying you could run flash in the iphone withhout actually using flash?

No. Not at all.

What this does is give the people who build web applications yet one more way to build their applications without Flash.

There should be a law "Use Flash, go to jail." Apple can't seem to get that law passed so the best they can do is make a carret and stick rule, with the stick being "Use Flash and all iPhone users will ignore your web site." and the Caret being "Here is something that is free, easy to use and better than Flash."
 

Macnoviz

macrumors 65816
Jan 10, 2006
1,059
0
Roeselare, Belgium
That's wishful iPhone-fanboy thinking. You honestly think that YouTube and thousands of other sites will adopt Apple's glorified javascript-include and dump all their existing flash content for a few million iPhone users?

Com'on, get real.


He actually meant not to use sproutcore, but plain ol' HTML (the new version) for all video embedding. Although that still doesn't help with all the other uses of Flash.
Let's face it, flash is gonna stay around for years to come, not matter what alternatives are available.
And I don't think it's Apple's intention either, because sproutcore seems like a solid alternative for their needs, and it doesn't require anything (except javascript being turned on) So even those few percent without flash will be able to use it.
 

dashiel

macrumors 6502a
Nov 12, 2003
876
0
That's all fine and well but nothing is going to replace all the thousands of sites currently using flash including popular video sites such as YouTube.


youtube has already converted their library to h.264 so it'll work just fine. flash player, since a mid-version update of 9, has supported h.264 in addition to the original sorenson and on2 video codecs.

if one looks at the chain of events leading up to this, it's pretty clear what happened. google and apple have a relationship at high levels. google is trying to figure out how to monetize youtube. google offered youtube on the iphone apple said not with flash. google converted their library to h.264. google then told adobe we're not supporting duplicate libraries, especially when h.264 offers a better file size to quality ratio. adobe releases a flash player that supports h.264
 

Apple Ink

macrumors 68000
Mar 7, 2008
1,918
0
Looks like the days of Adobe Flash are over (in 2-3 years or so)

Microsoft attacks wih Silverlight and Apple with SproutCore.

Yup, the mighty empire is set to fall {Will take a lot of time though!}

But this brings us to one question, will there ever be flash for OS X touch. At this rate it seems highly unlikely!
 

iSee

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2004
3,528
255
Flash has at least five things it is generally used for:
1. Annoying animated ads
2. Games
3. Sites with heavily customized UIs
4. To implement desktop-style web applications
5. To play videos from the web

From just reading this artivle, it sounds like SproutCore is mostly about #4 on my list. By the way, IMHO Flash is really bad at #4. So Apple using SproutCore might be more about finding something good for making desktop-style web applications rather than avoiding Flash.

A bit of a side issue, but here's how I rate Flash in its suitability for the five purposes:
1. Very good (That is, Flash is very good for making annoying animated ads.
2. Good - as a game engine, Flash doesn't have much horsepower, but it is so easy to make and deploy games with Flash, that there are lots of fun, stupid games out there.
3. This is a dubious goal in the first place.
4. Poor. They've been trying to tack features on to their animation engine to make it more appropriate for apps, but there is a fundemental mismatch in capabilities.
5. Very good/poorgood. it's very good as far as it goes. The big weakness is that only Flash video formats are supported. Edit: Didn't know that the Flash player now supports h.264. Upgraded from poor to good on that account.
 

lowbatteries

macrumors regular
Mar 21, 2008
223
15
That's wishful iPhone-fanboy thinking. You honestly think that YouTube and thousands of other sites will adopt Apple's glorified javascript-include and dump all their existing flash content for a few million iPhone users?

Com'on, get real.

A few points:

1) This isn't adding any new functionality anywhere. Apple is just using standard JavaScript to write applications instead of using a plugin (like Flash).

2) Flash should die. For 90% of flash sites, there is nothing done by Flash that couldn't be done by standard, non-proprietary technologies like JavaScript. Flash isn't and shouldn't be a part of "the web". It's not a standard, its a plugin. Anyone who builds a site with flash should assume that not everyone can see it. Flash broke the web, not the iPhone.

3) A big exception to #2 is video and audio - these were a pain until flash came along. However, it should be simple to have your site detect flash and revert back to standard html if it isn't there. And guess what - Safari supports the standard way of including video. So this isn't a matter of including a special hack just for the iPhone - its just good web design practice.
 
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