Maybe in US, but that's not even 5% of the world market.
I live in Europe and have many tech friends who have VR headsets, 3D printers and smart watches, but none of them have an Alexa.
Last edited:
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple and Amazon Adopt Opposing Strategies as Smart Home War Heats Up
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Maybe in US, but that's not even 5% of the world market.
I live in Europe and have many tech friends who have VR headsets, 3D printers and smart watches, but none of them have an Alexa.
To be more accurate, by people using millions of Linux based devices which had been brute forced by bots.
Perhaps there should be a list of such devices for consumers to avoid or take more care with.
Some IoT devices, such as the Samsung Smart Things hub, have been torn apart by threat researchers and found to have no known vulnerabilities.
Amazon has also added something unique. They put a hardware mute switch on top, which absolutely stops the mikes from listening at all if you wish total privacy.
Other devices such as smartphones have only a software driven mute button, meaning malware could enable the microphone at any time.
You mean on the devices you connect Amazon's Echo devices to?
Last edited:
Well. I've been working with homeautomation (hue, homeassistant, wemo, netatmo, alexa, homekit) very much lately and I can't say HomeKit is about ease of use. Yes, it's very limited. But it screws up on a regular basis and - if you're lucky - you have to delete all your configuration and start over. If you're less lucky you'll be rebooting, resetting, dancing around your Apple TV at midnight and hope it'll start behaving again.
[doublepost=1485726026][/doublepost]
How could they, if they don't sell it anywhere? UK and 'a little' in Germany, that's it. I've ordered mine in the UK (and payed quite some premium) because even as I would have been one of the 'chosen ones' that can buy one in Germany, they wouldn't deliver to Spain. Or Switzerland, for that matter.
[doublepost=1485726026][/doublepost]
How could they, if they don't sell it anywhere? UK and 'a little' in Germany, that's it. I've ordered mine in the UK (and payed quite some premium) because even as I would have been one of the 'chosen ones' that can buy one in Germany, they wouldn't deliver to Spain. Or Switzerland, for that matter.
That one's about a refrigerator.
That's the hub I mean, but the article is actually about an unnamed third party app that talks to the hub, and that app has a security hole.
I love this one. It again points out that Linux based IoT devices seem to be fond targets. It also ends with an admonishment to take both itself and other clickbait articles with a grain of salt:
"All you need to do is search the web for articles on webcam hacks and you’d think zombies are about to invade your house and kidnap your pets and children. Only some of the articles bother to point out that almost all of these hacks (including the ones on the Samsung SmartCams) require the ability to get to the device directly using its IP address. In almost all residential and commercial networks, that address is local, probably dynamic, and sits behind a firewall whose job it is not to let hackers in.
"So yes, if someone was on your LAN, or hacked your Wi-Fi, they could potentially hack your security camera or your future toaster. That would probably be the least of your problems, though. How many of your other computers, tablets and phones would they be likely to go after first?"
Last edited:
A device on your home network that can run code. Yeah, sure, it doesn't need to be as secure as your door.
Home automation will never "take off" if it must be installed after the building is complete. It will only be wide spread if builders put the equipment in new buildings.
But as a builder I will NEVER install anything as simple as a smart switch or door lock unless I know 100% that in 20 years after the part fails someone can go to Home Depot and buy a replacement for $5 just like they can now.
THAT is the big thing, it needs to be 100% standardized and available wherever building supplies are sold so that years later that smart light switch can be replaced.
Buildings have at least a 50 year life span and if I am going to place a switch in a wall I want parts availability for at least 50 years, maybe even 70 or 100. We have this today. Switches and wall outlets are standard parts and interchange with like parts made in the 1950's
Apple's efforts are doomed to fail. Any standard needs to be published and there needs to be many different manufacturers all using that standard. No one in their right mind would biuld an apartment complex that only runs on Apple IOS. That apartment complex will likely still be there in 50 years, long after IOS is gone.
If there is anything that needs to be based on open standards it is building automation.
The argument that it must be secure so therefor we can't tell anyone how it works is bunk. We can use cryptography so that the door only opens if the command is encrypted and the key can be a physical device inside the door lock that requires some one with a screwdriver to change. The trick is that you requires some one to physically hold down a button inside the door lock to enable reprogramming, you can't hack that remotely. LOTs of ways to make a secure open standard.
But as a builder I will NEVER install anything as simple as a smart switch or door lock unless I know 100% that in 20 years after the part fails someone can go to Home Depot and buy a replacement for $5 just like they can now.
THAT is the big thing, it needs to be 100% standardized and available wherever building supplies are sold so that years later that smart light switch can be replaced.
Buildings have at least a 50 year life span and if I am going to place a switch in a wall I want parts availability for at least 50 years, maybe even 70 or 100. We have this today. Switches and wall outlets are standard parts and interchange with like parts made in the 1950's
Apple's efforts are doomed to fail. Any standard needs to be published and there needs to be many different manufacturers all using that standard. No one in their right mind would biuld an apartment complex that only runs on Apple IOS. That apartment complex will likely still be there in 50 years, long after IOS is gone.
If there is anything that needs to be based on open standards it is building automation.
The argument that it must be secure so therefor we can't tell anyone how it works is bunk. We can use cryptography so that the door only opens if the command is encrypted and the key can be a physical device inside the door lock that requires some one with a screwdriver to change. The trick is that you requires some one to physically hold down a button inside the door lock to enable reprogramming, you can't hack that remotely. LOTs of ways to make a secure open standard.
Last edited:
Homekit in Europe is almost a Joke. A lot of companies that has developed their products to work with homekit only has them available in the US.
I want to build a new house in Europe, and I don't find any company that can offer reliable homekit with light switch or automatic shades.
I want to build a new house in Europe, and I don't find any company that can offer reliable homekit with light switch or automatic shades.
That's funny... none of those things are going to happen even with an Echo in the mix. There's a general misunderstanding here. The Echo in a small set of instances acts as a hub. In almost all others, it only communicates with a hub. And the devices themselves ONLY talk to the hub over a certain set of protocols, Z-Wave, Zigbee, wifi-direct or BTLE. Your lights aren't going to become part of a DDOS attack, they have no direct presence. Your locks aren't going to magically unlock, they operate off proximity to what controls it.
And most importantly here, you don't need to choose between these 2 things. Homekit doesn't "own" a device, as it's wifi-direct or BTLE only, and can operate in perfect harmony with an actual hub or Echo.
If you have an internet connection... And then it doesn't....
Homekit can be independant. Siri won't work but you can control it internally. Alexa relies on servers / Connection / Voice recog etc. You get an outage and you are screwed.
That said I like both and with a tiny bit of know how you can get both working sweetly together...
I have
Homekit
Smartthings
Hue
Honeywell Evohome
Harmony
Some other proprietary stuff...
I can get all working together with a tricky use of scenes and a white hue bulb to store a variable
Fails at which "end"? I am sure HomeKit has a log file. Have you checked it?
[doublepost=1485800130][/doublepost]
Since the average person is ignorant of what a mess the security of the IoT is (outside of HomeKit), no doubt things will continue to stumble-along until some really horrid hack happens. But then people will think the whole idea is dumb, rather than blaming those companies that treat security of something sitting inside your home network, but accessible from anywhere, is not that important...
[doublepost=1485800530][/doublepost]
If that were the only issue it would be bad enough; but it isn't.
NO consumer-grade router has any interest whatsoever in firewalling any node on your LAN from any other node on your LAN. That means, once you have compromised a path from the Internet into your LAN through a node that is either clueless about security, or worse yet, a "bad actor" itself (perhaps without even the manufacturer knowing about it; ask Cisco and Juniper Systems), a lot more can be at stake than the state of your living-room lights...
[doublepost=1485800654][/doublepost]
Exactly.
[doublepost=1485800715][/doublepost]
You'd think that; but you'd be wrong.
[doublepost=1485800861][/doublepost]
Could it be that they took a look at IoT and said "This is a security nightmare!", and vowed to fix that?
Nah, couldn't be something as simple as that. It HAS to be some sort of capitalist conspiracy, amirite?
[doublepost=1485800979][/doublepost]
That's the second person who has mentioned Hue. Perhaps the issue is at Philips' end, eh?
In order for home automation to truly be useful, it needs to do things WITHOUT you having to ask it to. It also needs to allow users to revert back to the old (current) way of doing things. If an always listening device is required for things to work properly, then you've failed.
The best example of this is lighting. When you walk into a room, the lights should just come on by themselves, you shouldn't have to shout at something to turn them on. You also need to be able to revert to the old way of doing things by having full control from a light switch. And the system should be able to adapt, regardless of what method was previously used to control the lights. Smart light bulbs fail this test, because if the switch they're wired to is off they're completely useless. I shouldn't have to train my family and guests not to touch the switches.
The problem I have with HomeKit is that of all the wall switches available, I only know of one that supports 3-way circuits (at least, that doesn't also cost an arm and a leg). Most houses are loaded with lights that are controlled from multiple locations. The Lutron Caseta switches can handle this, but they don't look like any other switches that are out there. So unless you shell out the cash, and take the time, to replace every switch in your house at the same time, you wind up with this weird looking hodgepodge on your walls. At least with z-wave you can easily find 3-way switches that look like every other switch in the house.
I agree with this completely! I'm toying around with home automation because I'm a software engineer, and I like being able to write code for my house. That's not normal people, and it will never be anything more than a niche hobby until houses are built with it routinely. Still, this stuff has to start somewhere.
The best example of this is lighting. When you walk into a room, the lights should just come on by themselves, you shouldn't have to shout at something to turn them on. You also need to be able to revert to the old way of doing things by having full control from a light switch. And the system should be able to adapt, regardless of what method was previously used to control the lights. Smart light bulbs fail this test, because if the switch they're wired to is off they're completely useless. I shouldn't have to train my family and guests not to touch the switches.
The problem I have with HomeKit is that of all the wall switches available, I only know of one that supports 3-way circuits (at least, that doesn't also cost an arm and a leg). Most houses are loaded with lights that are controlled from multiple locations. The Lutron Caseta switches can handle this, but they don't look like any other switches that are out there. So unless you shell out the cash, and take the time, to replace every switch in your house at the same time, you wind up with this weird looking hodgepodge on your walls. At least with z-wave you can easily find 3-way switches that look like every other switch in the house.
I agree with this completely! I'm toying around with home automation because I'm a software engineer, and I like being able to write code for my house. That's not normal people, and it will never be anything more than a niche hobby until houses are built with it routinely. Still, this stuff has to start somewhere.
Phillips has a little motion sensing device you put anywhere in the room and it can turn off and on the Hue lights you choose. I have on in our bathroom and have it dim the lights at night and come on full brightness during the day.
That being said, I don't want that type of setup in most rooms. I would rather yell to Siri or Alexa when I want lights on. Nothing like walking into the living room when people are watching a movie and having every light go on. Not ideal. In my office, I often like the lights off depending on what I am doing. It is just easier to tell an assistant what to do.
The movie scenario just highlights the limitations of Hue. With my setup SmartThings knows that someone is watching a movie and responds accordingly. I haven't set this up yet, but my intention is to dim the lights to somewhere in the 10-25% range when the movie starts playing, then raise them up to 50% when it's paused. When we're done watching, lights go back up to 100%. We're not big movie watchers, so this hasn't been a priority.
The nice apartment buildings around here are being built with home automation. My friend works at an older apartment complex and they just updated all the units for Alexa. Granted, I'm in a high tech area (Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc) with expensive rent, so this may not be the norm.
However, it is quite easy for a maintenance crew to change out switches and sockets--these things certainly don't need to be a 50 to 100 year commitment. Painting, flooring, counters, appliances, light fixtures--this is just one more item on the list.
Did electricity and telephone service only "take off" because of new building installations? Or is it possible that people somehow managed to wire up existing homes?
You can do the same with Hue. My point was about it coming on automatically when someone enters a room. My SimpleControl remote app can completely control the Hues in the house as part of the normal movie macro commands.
I understand. My point is that I'm able set SmartThings to ignore certain motion sensors if we're watching a movie, thus eliminating the situation you described.
I was using that as one example. However, my point is that motion sensors aren't ideal for many situations. I don't want to have to set anything to ignore motion sensors because my needs are different depending on the situation.
If I am working in my office, I don't want lights coming on unless I tell them to. If I am napping on the couch, I don't want someone walking into the room and turning every light on with motion. If I am watching a TV show, I may or may not want lights on. It depends on what I am watching or whether I am snacking, editing a photo while listening to a game, or throwing a ball to the dog at the time. It is easier to just tell Alexa or Siri what I want at the moment I decide. The exception would be for movies, where I know the exact lighting I want (where I would still override motion detection), but those situations are a small part of living in my home where my needs can change depending on mood, what I am doing, and the room.
As I said, I like motion for the bathroom and Hue does that well. It also works well for movies. I just don't want to have it work automatically by motion in my office, kitchen, living room, or bedroom. I would rather dictate what I need.
Yes, I'm sure the primary reason Apple has fallen behind in home devices, desktop computing, laptop computing, dropped wireless hardware development, stopped making monitors, havnt updated their imacs in nearly 500 days, and headphones being their most exciting product is because their 66,000 employees cant figure out network security.
And dismal old Siri, that must be a security issue too, right?
All those IoT devices you've heard about getting hacked, were exposed on the internet where they could be discovered by anyone, and they still had their default logins. They also all ran Linux and had not downloaded a security update that mitigated risks.
E.g. cable DVRs. Internet facing cameras. Baby monitors that open a forwarding port through your router's firewall.
Home automation devices will normally only be inside your home's LAN or Z-Wave network. Your internet router should by default keep outside malware probes away, and if you do some checking, you can ensure you use Z-devices with their standard 128-bit encryption turned on (all door locks come that way).
So if you secure your router and any other internet-facing devices with a decent password, and install updates, you should be in good shape.
Last edited: