Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Interested to hear said podcast... which was it?
[automerge]1586671861[/automerge]


Yep.. it was also detailed, here: https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluetooth/

Ok, here are two chat's about this exact topic from pretty respected independant places:


Click the link below, scroll down a litte and click on the purple play button for latest podcast called
Apple and Google are building a coronavirus tracking system into iOS and Android





also.....


Video below should start at the right point (10:20 from the start)
 
  • Like
Reactions: iGeneo and DeepIn2U
So what action would you take? Would you self isolate for 14 days because your phone’s bluetooth said you were nearby someone who says they were infected? Tile can’t find my keys when they are 3 feet away, I’m not convinced that this is anything more than a PR science project.

I would imagine the idea would ideally be that if this new system alerted you that you were in very close contact with someone who is known to have the virus (perhaps now suffering in hospital) upon getting this notification you would drive to get tested to see if you had it, and were also contagious, so you could isolate and protect your friends/family from being infected from you, even though you are not yet showing any symptoms.
After all, none of us would wish to be the one that brings the virus into our household and put our loved ones at risk would we?
 
  • Like
Reactions: iGeneo and brucemr
Seriously what is the point of this other than to remove or encroach on people’s personal liberties.
For your information, a stay-at-home order also violates personal liberties.

We have now seen dozens of ways to handle this in numerous countries. In no case could simple behavioral recommendations stop the virus from spreading.

There are two broad scenarios to choose from for the time until a vaccine is found, tested, mass produced, and made generally available (prob. early 2021).

In scenario A, everything goes back to normal and all civil liberties are fully upheld. The virus stops spreading when 60-70% of the people have been infected. Without any restrictions whatsoever this will happen within a couple of months.
The virus' lethality is around 0.5-1% if perfect medical treatment is available. Unfortunately, 10-20 times as many need hospital treatment for weeks. This quickly overwhelms medical capacity. It has been shown that the lack of resources (staff, ventillators, ICU beds, drugs, masks etc.) increases lethality considerably to around 3%. It also must be taken into account that other treatments must be postponed or are not possible at all during that time, e.g. people having a car accident will also die for the lack of treatment capacity.
Doing the math, around 6 million people will die in the US until the end of the year due to COVID-19. Maybe only 3 million, maybe 10 if you take indirect causes into account. In any case, there will be total chaos as far as medical treatment is concerned. And probably elsewhere too: don't underestimate fear if people are dying left and right.

On the other hand, the American people will then have herd immunity. Also, the bigger part of the dead people would have died soon anyway. And of course no personal freedoms are compromised. If you think that this is an ethically and politically viable scenario, by all means propagate it. But you have to be aware of the consequences. And you must understand why other people have a different opinion.

In scenario B we are playing for time. In one way or another personal liberties must be limited to keep cases low for the rest of the year. Obviously, a lockdown is a very effective measure, but very extreme and deadly for the economy. And it only helps as long as it is upheld. After loosening, case numbers will quickly grow again, forcing additional lockdowns and stay-at-home orders later this year. Eventually, the economy will be completely destroyed. So what else can be done? Fine-grained lockdowns at the village level are one possibility. However, this is still rather extreme and will still cause a lot of damage.

A better compromise would be to let people move freely, but couple it with very fast testing and tracing. Two facts are important:
1. People infect others before they have symptoms
2. We can detect the virus early in PCR, long before people are contagious

In theory, 2) means that testing everyone frequently would stop the pandemic, unfortunately that's not possible. Relying on people quarantining themselves after showing symptoms doesn't work due to 1). But if we could identify people who might have been infected and test them before they are contagious, that could work.
Traditionally, this would be done as follows: someone would show symptoms. The person then arranges an appointment to be tested / goes to a drive-in test. When the test is positive, the person is interrogated about their closest persons, contacts and activities in the last few days etc. Tracers try to find these contacts and convince them to self-quarantine / get tested.

It has been shown in models that this doesn't work. The virus just spreads too quickly (tracing takes a lot of time) and too easily (sitting in a restaurant at a neighboring table is enough). A lot of potential infections would be missed or identified too late to bring down the virus' replication rate enough.

Luckily, technology can help identify everyone an infected person came in contact with during the incubation period in an instance. This gives us a few options. For example, tell people to get tested if a contact has tested positive. Or tell people to self-quarentine if a contact has tested positive. Or tell people to self-quarantine when a contact started showing symptoms. The latter probably won't work as people will massively overreport intentionally and unintentionally. But all of this would still be a lot better than destroying the economy. And than millions dying (my opinion).
 
Last edited:
Succinctly put, both of you.

Communication from BOTH Google and Apple, not just separately, and it must be as a whole ... yet even with Global governmental support ... this would be HUGE! Assuring a global oversight committee of government security panelists even for continued scrutiny would push this along perfectly ( I think).

Once we all understand the greater good, as well as (not to mention assurance that NSA will not meddle, lol) trust that the current worlds internet use is modelled after WebKit ( 'started within Apple by Don Melton on June 25, 2001, as a fork of KHTML') and it's Google fork of it is used by the entire world (desktop or mobile browsers on ANY platform ... maybe this would help not just the trust but form a unification of standards and eliminate all the junk that's been causing the FUD of internet usage.

I'm REALLY curious how Sir Tim Berners Lee feels about this latest endeavor?

Like you mean....spooks?
If you're pushing the universal healthcare angle, just don't. I come from a country with THE universal healthcare system, with a sister who works in it and all I will say is I'm glad to be paying my own reasonable costs and taxes for healthcare in the US.

Universal healthcare on a scale of the US with its incredibly inefficient bureaucracy and layers of government would be a disaster. Not too mention your taxes would be crippling. I left my country to get away from that sort of thing.

Every country spies, at least in yours you have constitutionally enshrined rights like free speech and freedom of the press. Try living in a country where the Police come to your door for Twitter thoughtcrimes, or are charged with a criminal offense for making jokes on Youtube. Not too mention the UK spies on its citizens to a frightening degree with virtually no limits like you have in the US.
I'm not interested in any ideological stories. Universal healthcare is necessary for public health and safety. Bureaucracy? Go look at the OECD and WHO analysis of private health care in the US - its more expensive than administrating medicare.

Besides which if you are paying for yours and can afford it, good luck, but health costs are the number 1 cause of bankrupcy in the US too. So its about what is best for the masses.
 
I haven't read though all the posts, but this system is useless until they can get the testing results down to a minimum of 24 hours and being able to actually get a test. (In my opinion)

Another thing to consider is that if the economy gets bad enough, there is going to be violence and rioting and looting; which *could* cause more deaths than the virus itself. I think we have a ways to go for this to happen, but if Life isn't opened up again soon it will happen.
 
Last edited:
If technology can help everyone, I don't care about someone's privacy issues

EDIT Edit after 1 day some 25 disagree later:
"Someone's privacy issues" is dedicated to those who still believe their movements, preferences, and whatever any other personal data have not already been archived and cataloged so far.
I'm not happy to sacrifice my privacy for a superior benefit for everyone, but I know that my privacy has long been gone especially in the last decade. If any Apple device owner still thinks that his/her "things" are still their own private matters...well, that's really naive.
...and what if someone is accused of committing a crime when this functionality is enabled - will Apple and Google comply with a warrant to release this information to police? This information doesn't reside on an individual's phone (it's beamed back to Apple/Google), so device level encryption doesn't help here.

As long as it’s 100% anonymous going to Apple’s servers and relayed to whatever org, I’m okay with it as this is helping me and others.
[automerge]1586708234[/automerge]
...and what if someone is accused of committing a crime when this functionality is enabled - will Apple and Google comply with a warrant to release this information to police? This information doesn't reside on an individual's phone (it's beamed back to Apple/Google), so device level encryption doesn't help here.

FBI has joined the chat.
[automerge]1586708295[/automerge]
I haven't read though all the posts, but this system is useless until they can get the testing results down to a minimum of 24 hours and being able to actually get a test. (In my opinion)

How do? If someone is already flagged positive it helps. Not everyone is opting in. Not everyone even has the possibility of opting in
 
The problem in the US is that there are not enough test kits, and the testing has a very slow result spec. Also coupled with the fact that the virus can be asymptomatic for as long as 14 days.

It will be interesting to see if what Sweden is doing over the long run was correct or not.
 
I wonder if Apple will include this in a future iOS update so the only way to completely not participate would be to not update to newer versions of iOS. If it's an app that needs to be downloaded that's one thing but if they bake it into let's say 13.4.5 that would be not cool..
 
  • Like
Reactions: glowplug
I want to brag a little bit. This was my project on a COVID hackathon and called on Google and Apple to take the approach and make it part of their OS's to make it useful.

Before anyone get paranoid, it is a completely anonymous approach.

 
  • Like
  • Disagree
Reactions: glowplug and 123
The problem in the US is that there are not enough test kits, and the testing has a very slow result spec. Also coupled with the fact that the virus can be asymptomatic for as long as 14 days.

It will be interesting to see if what Sweden is doing over the long run was correct or not.

The deeper problem, and the hard fact is that there’s no reliable testing method for any coronavirus. A lot of time and energy are being spent on solutions built on ideological quicksand and absolutely ignorant science. Any comparative analysis based on testing will be as problematic (useless) as the methods.

Further still, there are no effective vaccines for coronaviruses, their nature makes them problematic for not just treatment but mere identification. It’s a hard limit in human scientific ability, and it hasn’t changed in decades, and not going to get solved next week/month/year because of political pressure or hopes/wishes.

Anybody talking about testing or vaccines, might as well be selling you magic beans. At best it’s a placebo or false hope, at worst it’s sciency sounding superstitious hope creating bigger problems and behavioral ticks in an uniformed population whose only real intellectual influence for decades has been the television and the rubber stamp university industry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SeattleMoose
I want to brag a little bit. This was my project on a COVID hackathon and called on Google and Apple to take the approach and make it part of their OS's to make it useful.

Since you’ve done the research I’m curious to what degree does bluetooth range equate with COVID-19 transmission? In other words, I would expect that one can be close enough for bluetooth to identify a contact but not close enough to reasonably expect COVID-19 transmission. How are these potential false positives filtered out to provide useful results?
 
I know some people are going to lose their minds about this, but I think it's awesome.

Everything is tradeoffs and people who try to maintain ideological purity above all else give up a lot. We can maintain privacy and stop diseases from spreading at the same time as long as neither needs to be 100% perfect.

Apple's entire reputation as a company is based on privacy and I am optimistic they are not going to want to trash that reputation. There's no version of reality where Apple releases a feature where your personally identifiable location history is freely available to anyone who wants to pull it up.

Given them one good scare and people turn into complete retards.

It's the cooked frog syndrome.

Ok let's go back to 9/11. Remember how we bought into the lie that there were WMDs and a million iraqis were murdered as a result, which cost the USA a few $Tn? (back then Tn were still a lot of money).

Stricter TSA regulations were introduced. Were they ever removed? No. Even though these days there's no terrorists anywhere, except the ones sponsored by the CIA or "set up" by the FBI.

Remember how supposedly someone tried to blow up a plane with some liqid explosives and since then we can't bring water on planes anymore.

You really have to have a 20 or 30 years view on these things. Corona was an exercise in public obedience and it worked.

They say jump, you say how high. They've trained you, and scared you ********, and now you comply "for safety".

You agree to live in a hellish "hunger games" like world just to be "safe". Liberties be damned! Free speech? Gah ,who needs it, there's "dangerous" information being spread. The government said so!

Bit by bit, slice by slice, and your kids, or grandkids, will represent your district at the hunger games, if they're lucky.

I was thinking in "The Matrix" - how did people get into these pods in the first place? Well if today, right now, an AI opened shop, and provided a 100,000 unit "virus free zone" with guaranteed social distancing and high res VR tech, people would be fighting... to get in!
[automerge]1586766942[/automerge]
Contact Tracing on one hand is innocent; you ask who someone's been in touch with and them them who they've been in touch with...

Enabling this on an API and Bluetooth level is straight up Dark Knight Rises, and we don't have Batman looking out for us.

High-Frequency_Generator.jpg
I am glad there's a few humans left who haven't completely lost their minds. Thank you.
 
While good to question everything, remember that Apple is the ONLY big company who stood up to the government to say no, they will not help them add back doors and decrypt data on someone's phone.
I very much doubt they stood up to the government.

They definitely don't stand up for human rights and privacy in China and have no issues bending to the will of the Chinese government.

I have no doubt that Apple adds back doors to their products but created the guise of fighting for your privacy in a "legal" battle against the FBI.
 
Nothing is tracked by a central authority. Your phone remembers all the IDs other phones have transmitted to it. A central server can tell you which of these IDs were submitted by a person recently tested positive for the virus. Then you know you've been close to an infected person, but without knowing who that person is.
[automerge]1586544076[/automerge]


You don't understand the underlying technology. Read some of the non-FUD-y posts in this thread that explain it.

I understand it just fine, thanks. The point is, we don’t need it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: glowplug
This was brought up on the marketplace podcast the other day but what happens when you pull up next to someone at a red light and you exchange keys with someone who’s positive?
 
  • Like
Reactions: glowplug
If this is an API, doesn't that exclude a ton of Android devices which will never be updated to the latest OS?

From a technical perspective, I'm curious if we can share the information needed and no more-- can we protect health and privacy? From a personal/political perspective I find this ominous.

Depending how it is implemented older Android phones may work with the API. If the API is part of the Google app or Carrier Services most phones on older versions of the API, as these are updated as apps, not as an OS update. Compared to Apple with iOS, Google has more of functionality out side of the core Android OS. I have an old phone that is stuck on Android 8.1, but it still has the lastest versions of almost all Google Apps.

While Google stopped publishing Android version data a year ago, statcounter has the two most recent version of Android at ~50% of usage. In many parts of the World half of Android is more than iOS. Also Google could ship an update to Android 8 and 9 as well as 10 with the new API. I hope they do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PrincePoppycock
In the Financial Times today....
...

"Google pressured by Brussels over privacy in coronavirus tracing app

Javier Espinoza in Brussels 4 HOURS AGOPrint this page9 Brussels has stepped up pressure on Google to respect EU privacy laws as the US search group joins forces with Apple to help in the development of Covid-19 contact tracing apps. The US tech companies are working to develop a system that will alert individuals of possible exposure to coronavirus in the hope that this will allow cities to emerge from severe lockdowns and kick-start their ailing economies. However, there are growing concerns among civil society groups and EU regulators that the introduction of such technologies — even on a voluntary basis — could lead to abuse and breaches of individuals’ privacy. Thierry Breton, the EU’s single market commissioner, held a 30-minute teleconference on Wednesday with Google’s CEO Sundar Pichai during which he said Brussels would be scrutinising closely how the service is rolled out in the bloc, according to people with direct knowledge of the talks.
...
 
I get the impression that this is Apple's technology, and Google's role is to implement it for Android rather than to design it.

Do other people get the same impression?
 
I get the impression that this is Apple's technology, and Google's role is to implement it for Android rather than to design it.

Do other people get the same impression?
Nope. It’s logging of Bluetooth proximity bases encounters - so that’s a common industry standard.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fermat-au
The following happens: At first, the natural immune system is unable to react quick/strong enough if you're old or if it is suppressed. Or if you are young and unlucky and get a high virus load directly into your lungs (the virus normally replicates in the upper respiratory tract for a few days before infecting the lungs).

And then your own "natural immune system" kills you by destroying itself through overreaction and by causing inflammation in your lungs to the point that not enough oxygen can be exchanged.

Yet by using IV Vitamine C or know anti-viral drugs to assist the immune system the lungs have a chance to do its job, unlike being intubated and speeding up the process.

Let’s al sit at home and cross our fingers that the boggy man called COVID does not mutate and we have a vaccine in 12-18 months that is effective against all three strains, considering we have no vaccine against SARS-1 and MERS and those have been around 2003 onwards. There was a vaccines being developed and testing for SARS-1 close to 2010 but the government decided to cut funding, but here we are.
[automerge]1587148583[/automerge]
For your information, a stay-at-home order also violates personal liberties.

We have now seen dozens of ways to handle this in numerous countries. In no case could simple behavioral recommendations stop the virus from spreading.

There are two broad scenarios to choose from for the time until a vaccine is found, tested, mass produced, and made generally available (prob. early 2021).

In scenario A, everything goes back to normal and all civil liberties are fully upheld. The virus stops spreading when 60-70% of the people have been infected. Without any restrictions whatsoever this will happen within a couple of months.
The virus' lethality is around 0.5-1% if perfect medical treatment is available. Unfortunately, 10-20 times as many need hospital treatment for weeks. This quickly overwhelms medical capacity. It has been shown that the lack of resources (staff, ventillators, ICU beds, drugs, masks etc.) increases lethality considerably to around 3%. It also must be taken into account that other treatments must be postponed or are not possible at all during that time, e.g. people having a car accident will also die for the lack of treatment capacity.
Doing the math, around 6 million people will die in the US until the end of the year due to COVID-19. Maybe only 3 million, maybe 10 if you take indirect causes into account. In any case, there will be total chaos as far as medical treatment is concerned. And probably elsewhere too: don't underestimate fear if people are dying left and right.

On the other hand, the American people will then have herd immunity. Also, the bigger part of the dead people would have died soon anyway. And of course no personal freedoms are compromised. If you think that this is an ethically and politically viable scenario, by all means propagate it. But you have to be aware of the consequences. And you must understand why other people have a different opinion.

In scenario B we are playing for time. In one way or another personal liberties must be limited to keep cases low for the rest of the year. Obviously, a lockdown is a very effective measure, but very extreme and deadly for the economy. And it only helps as long as it is upheld. After loosening, case numbers will quickly grow again, forcing additional lockdowns and stay-at-home orders later this year. Eventually, the economy will be completely destroyed. So what else can be done? Fine-grained lockdowns at the village level are one possibility. However, this is still rather extreme and will still cause a lot of damage.

A better compromise would be to let people move freely, but couple it with very fast testing and tracing. Two facts are important:
1. People infect others before they have symptoms
2. We can detect the virus early in PCR, long before people are contagious

In theory, 2) means that testing everyone frequently would stop the pandemic, unfortunately that's not possible. Relying on people quarantining themselves after showing symptoms doesn't work due to 1). But if we could identify people who might have been infected and test them before they are contagious, that could work.
Traditionally, this would be done as follows: someone would show symptoms. The person then arranges an appointment to be tested / goes to a drive-in test. When the test is positive, the person is interrogated about their closest persons, contacts and activities in the last few days etc. Tracers try to find these contacts and convince them to self-quarantine / get tested.

It has been shown in models that this doesn't work. The virus just spreads too quickly (tracing takes a lot of time) and too easily (sitting in a restaurant at a neighboring table is enough). A lot of potential infections would be missed or identified too late to bring down the virus' replication rate enough.

Luckily, technology can help identify everyone an infected person came in contact with during the incubation period in an instance. This gives us a few options. For example, tell people to get tested if a contact has tested positive. Or tell people to self-quarentine if a contact has tested positive. Or tell people to self-quarantine when a contact started showing symptoms. The latter probably won't work as people will massively overreport intentionally and unintentionally. But all of this would still be a lot better than destroying the economy. And than millions dying (my opinion).

And yet you forget that there have tested anti-virals to effectively treat COVID-19. Sticking to the status-quo of quarantine, waiting if symptoms worsen the hospitalization, symptoms get severe then ICU and possibly ventilator, patient either recovers or dies. Rinse and repeat until a vaccine that works for all three strains are developed while two of these strains are highly mutative and hope it works. This is like hoping the annual flu vaccine has picked the right strains and works for 60-70% of the people who have taken it. There is no guarantee with flu vaccine that fits every person and hoping there are no side-effects from the rushed vaccine. Overreact much.
 
Last edited:
And yet you forget that there have tested anti-virals to effectively treat COVID-19
No, I did not forget that because no such data had been released when I wrote the post. Also, the Gilead study has still not been published. At this point it is just a (very) promising data leak and some rumors. As of now there is no scientific evidence (published and peer-reviewed) supporting your statement. It is also not clear how quickly they could make Remdesivir available in sufficient quantities.
 
The overreaction to this pLandemic is like nuking a whole city because a couple of houses had cockroaches.
Millions of lives have been destroyed along with small businesses.
And now a tracking app? :oops:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hitrate
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.