Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Two recent news reports: Criminals in the USA are using malware stolen from the NSA to hack into companies' computers, encrypt files, and ask for ransom money. Criminals in China are using malware most likely stolen from the Chinese governments to hack into companies' servers and install malware for bitcoin mining.

If the NSA cannot keep its malware from being stolen by criminals, and the Chinese government cannot keep its malware from being stolen by criminals, what are the chances that GCHQ can read encrypted messages, without that ability getting stolen by criminals? Zero.

Intriguingly, it remains to be seen if the NSA tools were stolen or leaked. And the criminals now leveraging them seem to be global dispersed.



Anyway, that terrorism is always the penultimate rationale proves its effectiveness. If only people were so afraid of car accidents, or smoking, or for god’s sake, drinking alcohol. Terrorism is a great excuse to subvert democratic principles instead of addressing root causes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MacNeb and CE3
Hmm on the one hand I think our UK services are pretty damn good and have stopped a lot of attacks, which we will never know about, but on the other I’m not sure about every single message being sent to them..
I don’t think the EU will like it either which I presume we are still required to adhere to?

Hmm very split in this one. But considering the terrorists we have harboured and grown in the UK under our very noses maybe it would be for the best?

The conundrum is did these services stop something that we will never hear-off or did these services stop something that we did hear-off. What complicated matters are were any of the perceived incidents white flag scenarios to push an agencies agenda for further control to spy on its citizens.

Factual terror attacks can come from within or outside and from citizens or visitors, we cannot label one group or the other.

Here is a simple white flag scenario, through back channels one of these agencies wants more control over spying, so they hire an immigrant that is possibly struggling day-to-day, to carry out a planned attack. The situation is either that attach has been intercepted or not, if intercepted and caught (agency knows it’s going down similar to an exercise) arrests the “terrorists”, media chimes in and announced along with the government what a great job was done. The show goes on to warrant the extended reaching powers for these agencies, while in the background when the story is forgotten and another one picked up, the hired immigrant it let loose someplace else or a change in identity.

Does this sound like fiction, possibly. However life imitates art and vice versa. What initiative came first we may never know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: orbital~debris
Meanwhile, Wall St. and corrupt government continue to operate. Yep, business as usual.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kuito
The conundrum is did these services stop something that we will never hear-off or did these services stop something that we did hear-off. What complicated matters are were any of the perceived incidents white flag scenarios to push an agencies agenda for further control to spy on its citizens........

Does this sound like fiction, possibly. However life imitates art and vice versa. What initiative came first we may never know.

Well, what we do know is that according to the UK as well as US governments, they have succeeded in stopping multiple attacks. So they "seem" capable of doing their jobs just fine WITHOUT the need for this intrusion on us. Also, any attacks that have been successful, certainly would have been anyway even if they had this capability.
 
Well, the Germans don't want end to end encryption and we just want a copy of everything. So if I am a bad guy right now am I going to
A: Use a service that follows the rules
B: use a service that does not follow the rules and still do my bad guy stuff in complete privacy
Both countries ideas are not enforceable in a way that would be effective and maintain the 'normal' security of citizens.
 
UK always on the cutting edge of 1984 policies.
[doublepost=1559225381][/doublepost]
"We welcome this response to our request for thoughts on exceptional access to data -- for example to stop terrorists..."

I love this - cause the terrorists are going to be using the messaging apps that can monitored by the governments? Um, no. This is about the government being able to monitor the general citizenry's communications cause they want to.

"We have arrested Mr/Mrs Sasparilla due to content that we feel is dangerous to the greater citizenry through our new 'Ghost Protocol' policies. They will be in a secure cell for 60 days until we can investigate all their statements made between them and their counterparts." Meanwhile, pay no attention to the knifings going on across the country...

Yea... Pass.
 
What you've just said is essentially acceptance of the status quo because wiretapping has been done in the past why not apply it to technology of today.

What's your solution to law enforcement in a world with end to end encryption? I'm interested in what your alternatives are.

Some questions to consider (I don't have definitive answers to these). Does law enforcement only ever react or can they be proactive/preventative? Do they only get to react to events like the World Trade Center and related attacks, bombings and attacks in Pakistan/Syria/Sri Lanka/Paris/Moscow/Spain, abductions/drugs/bitcoin theft/slavery/child pornography/rape/etc. or can government agencies be able to collect information before? There is not an easy answer and there are arguments for both sides. This is an issue going back a long time [e.g., Writs of Assistance in pre-Revolutionary War American colonies and the subsequent 4th Amendment]).

Methods of surveillance and data gathering that worked in the past do not always work today (again, crime hidden behind encryption). As I said, this proposal isn't the correct one but it's better than encryption backdoors. I'm not a fan of wiretapping (I was just pointing out similarities) but there are times when the interest of the state are important enough to override the rights of individuals. These should be rare and justified. Rare, however, is > 0. Does this mean wiretapping is justified? Maybe, maybe not.

As for brain interfaces, that's a bridge to cross when/if it's an issue (slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies even if they sometimes turn out to be true; Justice Brandeis said in 1928: "The process of science in furnishing the government with means of espionage is not likely to stop with wiretapping." [Olmstead v United States] We've seen that has been the case.). It's always possible to codify limits in law. Laws can be written to expressly rule out access to direct brain interfaces, for example.

I'm a huge proponent of personal privacy but these are decisions governments have to make. Reverting to privacy above all else is not a tenable course of action for societies. Privacy is important (see the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution) but so is societal and personal security. Sometimes there are clashes between the two.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SRLMJ23
I'm more optimistic any advanced SIGNIT outfit has access in one way or another. The mere concept that Apple has built an impenetrable wall around their customers' communications is ridiculous. This sets precedent. It allows outfits to legally access such material. What stopped them prior to Snowden blowing the whistle? Nothing.


It's safer to presume that if such an occurrence hasn't transpired, then intelligence outfits have their men and women in the field within the ranks of these companies.
[doublepost=1559227958][/doublepost]
Be a shame if someone could get hold of the connection details for that third party and ghost spam it with junk messages to either bring it down like a DDoS or introduce so much noise that it's hard to get a signal.

I won't do this, but some clever so-and-so on the Internet hopefully will.
Mainframes typically handle data like that. You're going up against thousands of mainframes. Good luck.
 
What's your solution to law enforcement in a world with end to end encryption? I'm interested in what your alternatives are.

I'm quoting only this part of what you said but I did read your message in full.

In my opinion, we should not be trading freedom and I consider privacy a part of our freedom for security. If you create these systems they will be abused. Either by those who control them or by criminals or other nation states.

When the NSA found lots of issues in Microsoft Windows did they report them to Microsoft so that they could be patched? - No. They held those vulnerabilities back and created tools to exploit them. Tools like ETERNALBLUE.

Many people argued before ETERNALBLUE was created that the NSA should be able to horde vulnerabilities and create exploits because they need to keep the country safe and these tools allow them to gain access to private networks.

Of course what happened? - They got sloppy and this and many other exploit tools that the NSA created got out and were used by hackers and nation states (North Korea being one we're aware of) to create cryptolocking software that could move within Windows networks. This is the same malware that infected the NHS in Britain.

This is a case where had the NSA told Microsoft about these vulnerabilities, North Korea a nation state acting in a terrorist capacity would never have been able to perform the attacks on the national health service of Great Britain.

Getting back to wire taps. If you create a method to infiltrate private communications, those will be abused. It's a simple matter of fact, you give any organisation the ability to snoop and they will snoop without authorisation, information will leak. This is a lesson that people just don't seem to learn, information always leaks eventually.

The best thing to do, is to not create those backdoors, not to duplicate peoples private communications and give them to a shadowy governmental entity. I'm mindful of enacting godwin's law but what happened in Europe 75 years ago was some of the most efficient mass killing ever witnessed and it is information that drove that effort. Records, writings, texts of who people are, their families, their creeds. Mass databases available to a good government can quickly be utilised by an evil one for their own deeds.

We should always be mindful of history and respect its teachings. Often people say well what about the drug dealers, pimps, slave masters and terrorists going free because we couldn't intercept their communications? - I say to that, those kinds of people are often cunning. Drug dealers have been using burner phones for two decades now, terrorists have their own applications for encrypting their communications. We're not going to solve anything by breaching every persons communications on this planet and the dredges of society will always find a way around it.
 
It seems clear that with all the attacks on the citizens of all the tech-enabled countries, the ultimate conclusion is that we'll all go back in time to the stone age. Thanks for your help, governments!
 
Very interesting thought process going on here. Can't see it every happening, mainly because there is no one world governing body who could make companies allow this, but I can definitely see the individual countries working their tails off to figure out how to implement this on their own.
 
You really have to think about what GCHQ are really doing here. This is my industry sector and I’m certain that they know that this idea will never fly. It just won’t happen - as simple as that.

On the other hand, GCHQ must been *seen* to be doing its job. They need to suggest ideas to the Government. They want to be able to protect their own arses by being able to say “well if you’d implemented that idea we had...” to the Government when something goes wrong.

This kind of gamesmanship happens at the sharp end of every company and organisation. GCHQ are no different in that regard. It’s their top brass playing politics. The only difference is that their actions can affect an entire population and *sometimes* one of their crazy ideas gets the green light!
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.