Apple and Toshiba

[orangedv]

Couple of points;

Is this Toshibas technology or Apples? Who designed it? Who owns the patent? Who built it? IF Apple is not the answer to any of the obove I cannot for the life of me see how they can threaten Toshiba over non disclosure. If a potential customer is thinking of buying your product, when does that fact pass into spy land?

Second point I seem to remember a load of spin from Apple about market research showing an ipod mini has the capacity to handle most consumers mobile music needs. Honestly, can someone work out for me how much money you would need to spend in itunes to fill this hard drive? Cant think this will appeal to anyone but pirates..

 

[seraphnyc]

This is true for everything not just Apple computers, and technically it hasn't happened with the G5's yet. There are the exact same computer that was announced just under a year ago.

Touche'. I have to learn to be more clear and choose my words wisely, English is my 4th language, have pitty. I should have said that the same first gen M.O. WILL occur with the G5.

You are absolutely correct, this is not limited to Apple Hardware... look at the any hardware companys' first version hardware.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Couple of points;

Is this Toshibas technology or Apples? Who designed it? Who owns the patent? Who built it? IF Apple is not the answer to any of the obove I cannot for the life of me see how they can threaten Toshiba over non disclosure. If a potential customer is thinking of buying your product, when does that fact pass into spy land?

I could not agree with you more on this point. Not to mention that Apple is a current customer of Toshiba's 1.8" drives as it is. Toshiba was free to announce their drives. The question is what is Toshiba allowed to say about their business relationship with Apple, and we have no idea how the non-disclosure contract (if any) is written. It could be that Toshiba is not supposed to mention anything about Apple ordering new technology from Toshiba, but we don't know that.

Second point I seem to remember a load of spin from Apple about market research showing an ipod mini has the capacity to handle most consumers mobile music needs. Honestly, can someone work out for me how much money you would need to spend in itunes to fill this hard drive? Cant think this will appeal to anyone but pirates..

I totally disagree with you on this though.
While most (or at least a lot) don't need/want more that 4GB with them at a time, there are plenty of people out there with large, legal music collections (I used to own over 1000 CD's before didn't feel like moving them so I sold over half of them - unfortunately, might I add, that it was in the late 90's before the MP3 craze, and I didn't have the luxury of storing copies of everything so I lost those songs forever). I even know some one who owns two iPod (a 40GB and a 15GB) and complains that he can't fit his whole music collection (much of which he recorded into his computer from vinyl LP's and converted to MP3's then to AAC) on one device (he would however need about 120GB iPod for everything. I am not saying he is normal, but I am sure he is not alone.
Secondly, the 1.8" 60GB drives ordered by Apple may be not even be for the iPod. That conclusion was made by the author of the IDG article and by us. Maybe it is for a super PDA or "video iPod" (iVid) or some other new product we can't even imagine yet. I admit it probably is for iPod, but we do not know that for sure.

 

[XForge]

Well, um, duh? Toshiba makes the 40GB drive in the current iPod; Toshiba comes out with a 60GB drive with the same form factor... and we're supposed to NOT figure out that's gonna be in the next iPod revision?? Come ON already!!

 

[seraphnyc]

I could not agree with you more on this point. Not to mention that Apple is a current customer of Toshiba's 1.8" drives as it is. Toshiba was free to announce their drives. The question is what is Toshiba allowed to say about their business relationship with Apple, and we have no idea how the non-disclosure contract (if any) is written. It could be that Toshiba is not supposed to mention anything about Apple ordering new technology from Toshiba, but we don't know that.

I totally disagree with you on this though.
While most (or at least a lot) don't need/want more that 4GB with them at a time, there are plenty of people out there with large, legal music collections (I used to own over 1000 CD's before didn't feel like moving them so I sold over half of them - unfortunately, might I add, that it was in the late 90's before the MP3 craze, and I didn't have the luxury of storing copies of everything so I lost those songs forever). I even know some one who owns two iPod (a 40GB and a 15GB) and complains that he can't fit his whole music collection (much of which he recorded into his computer from vinyl LP's and converted to MP3's then to AAC) on one device (he would however need about 120GB iPod for everything. I am not saying he is normal, but I am sure he is not alone.
Secondly, the 1.8" 60GB drives ordered by Apple may be not even be for the iPod. That conclusion was made by the author of the IDG article and by us. Maybe it is for a super PDA or "video iPod" (iVid) or some other new product we can't even imagine yet. I admit it probably is for iPod, but we do not know that for sure.

Your intelligent responses are quite refreshing. No I am not being a smart ass.

Most people seem to overlook that Apples' intentions for the drives are not noted and that the mention of Apple was in that Apple would be purchasing these new drives. The intention of Apples' use of the drives was a speculative act of the rumor forums.

Not all high quantity music owners are pirates. Most of my music was acquired as gifts from the record companies I have dealt with for 10 years. I have filled my 20GB ipod 3 times over.

S.

 

[Tulse]

Is this Toshibas technology or Apples? Who designed it? Who owns the patent? Who built it? IF Apple is not the answer to any of the obove I cannot for the life of me see how they can threaten Toshiba over non disclosure. If a potential customer is thinking of buying your product, when does that fact pass into spy land?

Apple presumably has a contract with Toshiba for the purchase of these drives. Given that this is Apple, I would be extremely surprised if there isn't a non-disclosure clause in that contract regarding future delivery of these products. If that's the case, Apple has every right (including legal) to be pissed.

In any case, even without a non-disclosure clause, it is very bad business practice to disclose who your future customers are without getting some sort of permission/approval from said customers. To speak out of turn puts those customers at a competitive disadvantage, and may damage whatever marketing plan they have. Information is money, especially in the cut-throat business of portable digital media players.

 

[Squire]

Couple of points;

Is this Toshibas technology or Apples? Who designed it? Who owns the patent? Who built it? IF Apple is not the answer to any of the obove I cannot for the life of me see how they can threaten Toshiba over non disclosure. If a potential customer is thinking of buying your product, when does that fact pass into spy land?

First of all, any argument here must include (or at least make reference to) a few assumptions:

1) Was Apple Computer Inc. mentioned as a buyer of these new drives? Or was there any statements even linking Apple as a potential buyer?

2) Do Apple and Toshiba have a non-disclosure agreement? Does it prohibit the above (#1)?

3) Are the folks at Apple really upset?

For number one, we have to simply put our faith in the media if we want to assume it's true. I have very little knowledge about such agreements. However, in the tech industry- and especially where Apple Computer is involved- I'd have to guess such an agreement is in place. My final point doesn't really matter.

IF Apple was mentioned as a customer and IF that utterance broke the rules of the agreement between the two companies, Apple has every right to be upset. And others have already pointed out several reasons why their reaction would be justified: possible loss of sales, possible monkey wrench thrown into Hitachi negotiations, loss of trust, and simply anger based on principle.

I don't know what goes on behind closed doors at 1 Infinite Loop (and I doubt few on this board do), but this is most likely more serious than a lot of people here (the ones saying, "Duh! As if we wouldn't know they were going in the iPod anyway?") realize.

Second point I seem to remember a load of spin from Apple about market research showing an ipod mini has the capacity to handle most consumers mobile music needs. Honestly, can someone work out for me how much money you would need to spend in itunes to fill this hard drive? Cant think this will appeal to anyone but pirates..

People with big CD collections. My brother, for instance, would need 2 of these to hold his collection and he doesn't download music. Besides, the iPod has become more than just a fancy mp3 player. I have all my important files stored on mine as backup.

Squire

 

[socbyset]

Apple presumably has a contract with Toshiba for the purchase of these drives. Given that this is Apple, I would be extremely surprised if there isn't a non-disclosure clause in that contract regarding future delivery of these products. If that's the case, Apple has every right (including legal) to be pissed.

yes, and besides whatever contractual obligations toshiba has, there is the simple matter of it being a generally bad idea to enrage one of your major customers.

 

[seraphnyc]

Apple presumably has a contract with Toshiba for the purchase of these drives. Given that this is Apple, I would be extremely surprised if there isn't a non-disclosure clause in that contract regarding future delivery of these products. If that's the case, Apple has every right (including legal) to be pissed.

In any case, even without a non-disclosure clause, it is very bad business practice to disclose who your future customers are without getting some sort of permission/approval from said customers. To speak out of turn puts those customers at a competitive disadvantage, and may damage whatever marketing plan they have. Information is money, especially in the cut-throat business of portable digital media players.

Indeed.

S.

 

[JGowan]

Boon-what?

What about the massive number of G5 sales that never happened because Steve Jobs himself stupidly told potential customers that 3Gig machines would be available by Summer 04. Has there ever been a bigger boondoggle than that?

The Fuji thing seems like a minor glitch by comparison.

I don't agree with your accessment of the situation. A couple of reasons why that isn't really a good comparison:

1a) An ipod is a "can take it or leave it kind of thing". It's entertainment. And at $499, it's more or less a luxury.

1b) Lead times between ipod revisions generally is 6 months.

2a) A computer (especially the new Professional-grade G5) is not necessarily a luxury, even though it costs way more than $499. Many people had already been waiting for the "next big jump" in terms of performance. Apple gave them more than just a jump with the new G5. They got Performance; Great Price; New Chip Architecture; Incredible new enclusure. In short, the wait for many was well-worth it.

People waiting were finished waiting when the new G5 was revealed. It was too tempting and frankly, many people simply NEEDED a new computer with faster performance. The need is key. Steve knew this and felt safe to speak of even greater performance in the future.

2b) Steve's promise was in excess of 12 months. This is twice as long as one might wait for a new, greater capacity ipod (again a device to simply entertain). A casual user might say "yeah, I'll wait a year for the 3GHz computer" or perhaps someone who had gotten a computer within the last year or so and understands that they need to wait to get the most out of their G4 Mirror-door computer. But pro users with a need for fast tower are not going to wait (and most likely, didn't). They're simply going to plunk down the money and get back to work.

------------------------------

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again because I think think that if Apple is upset, it's truly because of this:

What if they were planning a 50GB model next? What if one of their announcements at WWDC was the new 50GB model and these were already into production. I mean, they've done these odd number jumps before. I incorrectly thought that the obvious plan would've been to release a 5, 10, 20 & 40. Apple snook in the 15 & 30 and sold a lot of them. The next obvious step would be 50GB, right?

But then, Toshiba announces a 60GB and suddenly, people are thinking, I'll just wait 6 months for the even bigger unit. I think an announcement like Toshiba allegedly made could cause a lot of 50GB units to remain unsold. Or it could, in the least, foster ill-will between those customers who really didn't want to wait, but felt Apple was holding back on technology and kind of "short-changing" them. It's a given that companies always are working on the next big thing, but to actually know what it is and that they are definitely HOLDING OUT is another.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

For number one, we have to simply put our faith in the media if we want to assume it's true. I have very little knowledge about such agreements. However, in the tech industry- and especially where Apple Computer is involved- I'd have to guess such an agreement is in place. My final point doesn't really matter.

You have a lot more faith in the media than I do (and I work in the media). Whenever a journalist doesn't make something a direct quote, I always take it with a grain of salt. It is no longer what what the person said; it has been become the journalists interpretation of what was said. The truth is we don't know what the conversation between the journalist and Ms. Lee (if any) was. We don't know if he got the quote second hand or just plain made it up (maybe he is trying to get job at the New York Times). I am not accusing Mr. Williams of this. I am just saying that non-direct quotes have to be treated as such.

IF Apple was mentioned as a customer and IF that utterance broke the rules of the agreement between the two companies, Apple has every right to be upset. And others have already pointed out several reasons why their reaction would be justified: possible loss of sales, possible monkey wrench thrown into Hitachi negotiations, loss of trust, and simply anger based on principle.

Like you say, we don't know what the rules of any Apple/Toshiba agreements are. It is common knowledge that the current Toshiba 1.8" drives are in the iPod. Who orginally made the relationship public information, Apple or Toshiba? I can't really track that down anymore, but it clearly was not a secret. I would hope that the "deputy manager of Toshiba Digital Media Network Taiwan Corp.'s hard disk drive division technical department" knows the rules of any non-disclosure contracts regarding her division's products. I guess if we learn about Cindy Lee getting fired by Toshiba we will know that it was her fault.

I don't know what goes on behind closed doors at 1 Infinite Loop (and I doubt few on this board do), but this is most likely more serious than a lot of people here (the ones saying, "Duh! As if we wouldn't know they were going in the iPod anyway?") realize.

We don't know what is going at Apple you are correct, but I would hope that Steve is more concerned with living up to his 3 GHz G5 promise than he is with people discovering that Apple is going to upgrade the iPod in the near future. Besides, in the article itself Toshiba doesn't plan to start mass producing the drives until July or August. It could easily be four to five months before we see them in the iPod. I guess time will tell if this hurts sales. Personally, I expect the 60 GB drive to cost more than the 40 GB to produce. So if the iPod is the destination for the new drive there no guarantee it will become the $499 model (maybe it will be a $549 model with $50 drops on the rest of the line).

If Apple is pissed off, it just goes to show where their priorities are today. So far the iPod money coming into Cupertino hasn't resulted in new products coming from the Mac division.

 

[sushi]

lol, so true. Don't forget that Steve works at Apple for $1 a year.

Actually, while he is paid only $1 per year, he makes a lot more through benefits and bonus type payments.

Take for example, the jet airplane (deal worth many millions) that the board purchased for him.

Sushi

 

[pjkelnhofer]

2b) Steve's promise was in excess of 12 months. This is twice as long as one might wait for a new, greater capacity ipod (again a device to simply entertain). A casual user might say "yeah, I'll wait a year for the 3GHz computer" or perhaps someone who had gotten a computer within the last year or so and understands that they need to wait to get the most out of their G4 Mirror-door computer. But pro users with a need for fast tower are going to wait. They're simply going to plunk down the money and get back to work.

I totally disagree with this assessment. If some one wants an iPod they are going to go get an iPod. If some one has $500 to spend on a portable digital music player and they want a one, they are going to go the store and buy one. They are not going to decide "ohh, if I wait four months there will be a larger one." The iPod has been updated pretty much every six months since it inception. If people truly waited, when would they ever buy one. Heck when the 60GB does come out the 80GB may be only six months away.

More importantly, the 40GB is the worst selling of the iPods anyhow, and I believe the mini is currently the best. So the people affect by the increase are a small percentage of iPod buyers in general.

It is not like the 60GB announcement was big news to the average consumer. The majority of iPod users are not hardcore computer geeks, and probably don't know/care about the latest technology until it reaches their store shelves in the form of products. Then they buy it when they want it.

Most home computer users, on the other hand, shop around before buying a new PC. They look at Dell and Best Buy and Circuit City, etc., and see what they can get for the money they have to spend. Then buy what they percieve to be the best deal (often ignoring the Mac because of a higher upfront cost or "lack of compatibility).

I do agree that companies/power users are going to go out and get the fastest computer when they have the money/need for new computers, but let's say that you are running a small graphical design shop. You have been using an 867MHz PowerMac for three years now and decide it is time to upgrade. If you know that WWDC is approaching and Steve said that the G5 would be 3 GHz within a year, don't you give it a month and see what comes out. Afterall, you have survived using the computer you are now for so long what is a couple more weeks.

The design department at my company (the only part of the building not full of Dells) is in just that circumstance. They are using three 1 GHz and one dual 1 GHz G4. They decided to waiting until the Rev. B G5's to upgrade their systems because the head of the Department doesn't want to spend the money on a computer that is "nearly a year old" and believe that updates cannot be very far off.

 

[a17inchFuture]

Just because Apple is jerks enough to continue this trend of not infroming the consumer, doesnt mean we should accept it, or they should scold others for it.

Look at the videogame market, AKA the most successful in the world. They announce their new platforms YEARS in advance, and then continually update their progress and sepcs.

Only Apple thinks they can get away with these practices, the company that charges 500 dollars for 512 MB of RAM, since they know most of their consumers wont knwo the difference. Real friendly to the consumer, arent they? Gotta love a company that cares about themselves over the people keeping them in business.

 

[MrToast]

Holy crap! You mean Apple was going to bump the HD size of the iPod?!?! No way man! I don't believe it! Never in a million years!

Grow up Apple. As if no one saw this coming...

MrToast

 

[JGowan]

I totally disagree with this assessment. If some one wants an iPod they are going to go get an iPod. If some one has $500 to spend on a portable digital music player and they want a one, they are going to go the store and buy one. They are not going to decide "ohh, if I wait four months there will be a larger one."

There are plenty of people on both sides. For every person not able to keep the cash from burning a hole in their pocket, there are those that are able to keep their cool and chill on the purchase for 4-6months.

... but let's say that you are running a small graphical design shop. You have been using an 867MHz PowerMac for three years now and decide it is time to upgrade. If you know that WWDC is approaching and Steve said that the G5 would be 3 GHz within a year, don't you give it a month and see what comes out. Afterall, you have survived using the computer you are now for so long what is a couple more weeks.

What Michael Vance called a boondoggle was Jobs' announcement a year ago about Summer's 3Ghz machines. His assessment was that it hurt the intial 2Ghz G5 sales because people knew a YEAR OUT about the 3GHz machines. No one said anything about the people who need to buy NOW and waiting to see what WWDC has to offer. Of course, only a fool, those truly in need or those who aren't in the know would go out and buy a computer right now. But we weren't discussing that left-field topic.

They decided to waiting until the Rev. B G5's to upgrade their systems because the head of the Department doesn't want to spend the money on a computer that is "nearly a year old" and believe that updates cannot be very far off.

Again, smart decision. But, I wasn't discussing potential customers of today, I was talking about customers of a year ago.

 

[seraphnyc]

Just because Apple is jerks enough to continue this trend of not infroming the consumer, doesnt mean we should accept it, or they should scold others for it.

Look at the videogame market, AKA the most successful in the world. They announce their new platforms YEARS in advance, and then continually update their progress and sepcs.

Only Apple thinks they can get away with these practices, the company that charges 500 dollars for 512 MB of RAM, since they know most of their consumers wont knwo the difference. Real friendly to the consumer, arent they? Gotta love a company that cares about themselves over the people keeping them in business.

Being the paradox that Apple has become, the underdog with a High Powered bark, Apple has to keep things under wraps. Why let the competitors know every plan they have. This is nothing like the video game console industry. The video game console industry can announce their plans because, given the history, video game console makers tend to try to differentiate themselves from one another. The idea of a rival console maker "stealing" ideas and beating the competitors to market with are somewhat (<----Keyword) of a non-issue. This is clearly not so for the PC/Mac industry, history clearly shows this.

Companies HAVE to care about themselves first, if they do not how can they possibly provide anything of value to the customer. It may not be what you want to hear, but this is what is so. This is not solely an Apple practice. We see it in the Automotive industry, the home electronic industry (sans consoles), and in the Movie business. This practice is not new, not soley on Apple and definitely not uncouth. How one chooses to run his or her operation is their right, as long as they produce good products why should their secrecy matter?

This is also often seen in the video game software industry. When details, no matter how small, are leaked sans the developers permission it is a big deal.

This is not to defend Apple, but to defend business practice and the ethics thereof. Regardless of how small the detail is, i.e. announcing a new 60GB HD and saying/inferring that Apple has already placed their order, it is a big deal... especially so if (<--- Keyword) an NDA is involved and knowing Apple it just may be.

One must see past his own want and thirst for information and find another view that is not obvious to you. Most of the people here seem to only look at this from the point of view of a consumer who wants to know things they honestly have no right to know without the companies permission, end of story. I do know that if I were to do an interview and spilled the beans about my clients, no matter how small, I would be crucified and my career would be in danger.

This is what is so, the only thing one can do is deal with it or start their own business venture and run it the way they see fit.

NOTE: No anger should be read in this statement, just matter of fact.

S.

 

[uzombie]

You got it right!

Apple acts like a big spoiled baby. its about time they stopped playing spy vs spy and start making better products. serves them right. Are they a computer company or a security agency???

I agree %100.

Apple (Jobs) must be a control-freak. Just think...if there wasn't any issue with Apple and getting product to market without some "special announcement" gala, ego-popper...there wouldn't be rumor sites!

 

[bar italia]

If some one has $500 to spend on a portable digital music player and they want a one, they are going to go the store and buy one. They are not going to decide "ohh, if I wait four months there will be a larger one." The iPod has been updated pretty much every six months since it inception. If people truly waited, when would they ever buy one. Heck when the 60GB does come out the 80GB may be only six months away.

pjkelnhofer has a refreshing grasp of the correct.

 

[Wonder Boy]

He are all so sure that Apple is pissed off just because ThinkSecret said so.

The truth is we don't know what the deal between Apple and Toshiba is, and we don't know what Apple's reaction to the story was.

out of all the apple rumour site, i and i think a lot of people believe what thinksecret says more than anyother site. they have a great track record of reliability and a knack for covering issues a lot of other sites ignore.

thats mostly my opinion,but i think we can all agree they are a lot more reliable than looprumors ever was.

 

[Misplaced Mage]

There's Apple's public stance, and then there's Apple's private stance

From my experiences in the cell phone industry (another hideously competitive one), there're going to be non-disclosure agreements between Apple and every single one of its suppliers and outside contractors, hardware or software -- it's SOP. Even assuming there aren't already penalty clauses in the purchase agreements Apple has with Toshiba, Toshiba's breach of said NDA gives Apple an opening to renegotiate and get better pricing on the 60GB drives or pricing concessions on other components. So it actually benefits Apple to be as upset as possible over this in public as the wronged party.

Behind the closed doors of Apple's supply chain management (purchasing), however, you may hear chuckles of glee...

 

[pjkelnhofer]

out of all the apple rumour site, i and i think a lot of people believe what thinksecret says more than anyother site. they have a great track record of reliability and a knack for covering issues a lot of other sites ignore.

thats mostly my opinion,but i think we can all agree they are a lot more reliable than looprumors ever was.

They are correct more than many of the sights, I would agree. However, they are still a rumor site.

Additionally, the comparison to the ATI fiasco doesn't make sense to me. It's not like Toshiba said we are making 60 GB for the iPod. They were announcing the drives (which they sell to many people, unlike Mac specific video cards) and mentioned that Apple would be buying them. ATI basically announced that new PowerMac and iMac models were coming out and they were supplying the video cards (before Apple had said anything about the new computers).

If Apple is upset about the announcement of the 60GB drives altogether that wouldn't make sense. Apple is not Toshiba's only customer you would think they are allowed to announce their own technology whenever they want.

If they are upset because of the announcement of Apple wanting to purchase them, I can see how they feel like their plans were given away (and if Toshiba was in fact not supposed to mention it they have gripe). However, even if the original article made no mention of Apple don't you think we all would have assumed upon the announcement of 60 GB drives that it meant an upgrade for the iPod.

 

[JGowan]

Ironic, eh?

...I do know that if I were to do an interview and spilled the beans about my clients, no matter how small, I would be crucified and my career would be in danger.

Interestingly enough, it's when Jesus Christ was crucified that his career really took off.

 

[frankly]

Perhaps you don't realize that many people believe that the 3Ghz (possible duals) will be released at WWDC in two weeks, at the end of June, in the summer of '04, as was ORIGINALLY promised.

Also, you overlook (or maybe don't know) the fact that this promise was in fact changed to September '04.

You missed his entire point. It doesn't matter WHEN they are going to be released. The fact that Steve Jobs himself promised that they would be out is the same thing as Toshiba saying they are releasing a 60GB drive in August and Apple has ordered them. The difference is that Steve himself made the statement and he made it a year in advance. Don't you think that would have done much more to stifle sales than this maybe announcement from Toshiba that everyone is making such a big deal about???

If you still don't get his point just try reading it and thinking about it for the rest of the day.

Later, Frank

 

[frankly]

No wonder that Apple has no time for proper and immediate service to their customers. They are too busy writing emails to other companies like Toshiba, ATI etc.

I wish they would rather react to complaint of customers quicky before they start complaining.

PS: Waiting for 1.5 month already for replacement of PBG4 AL cover, which is ****ty designed and not as stiff as aluminium should be. But Apple of course doesn't care...

Never ass|u|me