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Apple and Toshiba
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JGowan said:
1) Even if everything you said was correct, what about the people that were ready to upgrade 6 months after his statement? What about 9 months after? Wouldn't we have the same situation of lost sales. They are ready to upgrade but don't want to miss out on all that extra power that is just a few months away.... The bottom line is that the comparison to Steve Jobs announcing the 3GHz G5 at the same time as the 2GHz was exactly right for this situation.
2) Are you even aware of a 50GB drive that exists??? If not, then this argument is blown as well. Besides, I don't think Apple would bother releasing a new high end model unless it was at least a 60GB drive.
Frank
mig said:
If the replacement cover you (eventually) receive has any difference(s) from the original, I'd consider six weeks to be remarkable speed, given that the redesign (or new alloy, or finish) had to be tested, the tooling to make it modified, new sheet metal obtained (necessary if the thickness, alloy, and possibly finish changes), mass quantities manufactured (and tested again), shipped to the factory and warranty fulfillment center, etc. The (re)design lead time on some components used in computers is measured in months -- years, in the case of the CPU. High volume manufacturing doesn't turn on a dime, no matter how badly any party involved would like it to.
OTOH, if the replacement cover is absolutely identical in form and material to the original... <shrug> Only Apple knows, but there's a point at which it's cheaper for Apple to continue shipping with a flaw, taking customer flak for it, and replacing as necessary than to fix it outright.
frankly said:
And you don't see a difference between a CEO of a company talking about his own products, a marketing droid from another company talking about somebody else's products?
And as for a previous commment, actually it's a well known fact that SJ is a control-freak. In fact it's well enough known, that I'm sure any company that has major deals with Apple takes that into account.
Darn, I promised myself I wouldn't get re-involved in this thread and here I am trying to convince people again.
This story seems to state that information was released to say that this new 60GB drive would be used in forthcoming iPods. The article does not say that at all. It says that the drives are being released and that Apple is buying some of them. It does NOT state what they will be used for. Their use in iPods would seem to be the most obvious use but is by no means guaranteed.
d_jk said:
Agreed. This really comes down to whether or not Toshiba has violated an NDA with Apple over the disclosure of the sale, though I'm sure the implied product roadmap leak enters into it. Either way, Apple's reacting the way I'd expect them to.
JGowan said:
Christ I am not... in fact I am a Buddhist so I doubt my career would be helped by violating an NDA.
frankly said:
Try.
The assessment is far from made up. The assessment comes from past experiences including G5 issues, i.e. the powersupply noise, that one would hope is being addressed in this latest revision. [The difference between early adopters and those that wait for the next revision with all of the kinks worked out.]
The part about those not being early adopters [and waiting for the next revision] comes from talking with developers and the like at the previous 2 (<--- key-number ) WWDC confferences I attended and the most repeated statement [at this last WWDC2003]was, "I am going to wait for the next revision before I buy one."[The other most repeated statement was made by those who boasted about liking to get their hands on the technology as soon as it is released, and that was "I am going to get one of those things as soon as possible."]
If it is wrong on so many levels, it should be a snap to ffind where to start. Give it a shot.
S.
stcanard said:
I am finding that it is hard to convince anyone who has already made up their mind and would refuse to even attempt to see another point of view.
Besides being involved and at least sharing a point of view that makes sense is perfectly ok.
S.
Sorry for the multple posts.
JGowan said:
You are incorrect in your assessment. He never said anything about the sales from one year ago. He said sales in general which means from release until now and anytime in between. Apple tracks their sales by quarter. The announcement that Steve made will have the same affect the quarter before the WWDC as the "Toshiba announcement" could have on the iPod sales in this quarter before September.
Frank
stcanard said:
You appear to be confused. Toshiba didn't announce any Apple products so your comparison falters there. The point that we are making is not in regards to who can announce products. It was in response to people saying that the announcement would affect sales. Therefore you can draw a direct comparison to Steve Jobs announcing a product a full year in advance to Toshiba announcing a product that might be used in an updated product in the next few months. People are saying that the Toshiba announcement would adversely affect sales because people will stop buying iPods until the new models come out. Wouldn't the same thing happen with G5s at some point in the 12 months that Steve said new models are forthcoming? And which would hurt Apple more? They make a lot more money selling G5s than they do selling iPods.
So if you want to take the Toshiba announcement and mix it in with your supposition of how Steve would react feel free to keep going. The rest of us will be over here in the real world where we knew that bigger iPods were coming before Toshiba ever said anything.
Frank
frankly said:
But the point is that Toshiba announced that Apple was buying their new 60GB hard-drives. This in turn created articles on BBC, and The Globe and Mail (that I know of) announcing Apple will be upgrading the iPod to 60GB.
Now had Toshiba announced the 60GB drives, without mentioning Apple, do you think those articles would have been writtten with that headline?
My Dad's in the market for an iPod, he didn't think about the fact that bigger ones are coming. He sure as heck saw the article in the Globe this morning.
Don't confuse the people that read this site with Apple's target market for an iPod.
But we're still arguing a non-issue. The point is that you can absolutely bet that the Toshiba announcement violated a contract with Apple. The quotes in the article said as much. Of course Apple is going to be upset at a violated contract.
If you bought a year's apple care, and after 6 months they said they changed their mind (i.e. violated the contract) I bet you'd be pretty unhappy too.
50 gig... hello??
What happened to the rumor of 50gig hardrives!?
If anybody can find an update of the 50gb toshiba drives, I would be most appreciative. Also here's how I see it if the 50gigers DO exist and are being produced:
-At WWDC the 4th Gen. iPods will be released with the top end being 50gb
-Given that the 60gig Toshiba drives aren't even rumored to be going into full production until july or august, I'm guessing that the 60gig revisions won't be released until christmas or MWSF.
-On top of all this, I think people are forgetting that Apple has never jumped more than 10 gigs in a revision. 10 IS THE YARDSTICK OF REVISION.
-It's been, what 9 months since they upgraded the biggest one? I think they're due.
-Plus, I need to buy one, and the personalization promo ends on the same date as the memory and brilliant savings one... coincidence?
Just my thoughts...
What happened to the rumor of 50gig hardrives!?
If anybody can find an update of the 50gb toshiba drives, I would be most appreciative. Also here's how I see it if the 50gigers DO exist and are being produced:
-At WWDC the 4th Gen. iPods will be released with the top end being 50gb
-Given that the 60gig Toshiba drives aren't even rumored to be going into full production until july or august, I'm guessing that the 60gig revisions won't be released until christmas or MWSF.
-On top of all this, I think people are forgetting that Apple has never jumped more than 10 gigs in a revision. 10 IS THE YARDSTICK OF REVISION.
-It's been, what 9 months since they upgraded the biggest one? I think they're due.
-Plus, I need to buy one, and the personalization promo ends on the same date as the memory and brilliant savings one... coincidence?
Just my thoughts...
pjkelnhofer said:
I didn't say that I had faith in the media. (And I apologize for not articulating myself more clearly.) I said that "...any argument here must include (or at least make reference to) a few assumptions..." and that one of those assumptions was believing what was actually written in the media. In other words, if you don't believe what was reported in the first place, this thread should not really interest you.
stcanard said:
And for a second time in this thread, I find myself quoting you, stcanard. Yes! Steve Jobs can basically say whatever he damn well pleases without breaking any "rules." Toshiba, so it seems, broke the "rules."
Squire
stcanard said:
I don't know how he caught that article. If he paid any attention to the iPod at all he couldn't help but notice the steady progression of larger drives every six months or so. Your argument is extremely weak in this regard.
stcanard said:
That is complete supposition on your part. You have no facts to back up that statement but you act as though it is completely true. You and others in this forum have been blowing so much hot air based on things that you made up in your heads. Get over it. It looks like you are all more mad than Steve Jobs could ever be.
Why don't you all just boycott Toshiba. Maybe it will make you feel better.
Frank
Soire said:What happened to the rumor of 50gig hardrives!?
If anybody can find an update of the 50gb toshiba drives, I would be most appreciative. Also here's how I see it if the 50gigers DO exist and are being produced:
-At WWDC the 4th Gen. iPods will be released with the top end being 50gb
-Given that the 60gig Toshiba drives aren't even rumored to be going into full production until july or august, I'm guessing that the 60gig revisions won't be released until christmas or MWSF.
-On top of all this, I think people are forgetting that Apple has never jumped more than 10 gigs in a revision. 10 IS THE YARDSTICK OF REVISION.
-It's been, what 9 months since they upgraded the biggest one? I think they're due.
-Plus, I need to buy one, and the personalization promo ends on the same date as the memory and brilliant savings one... coincidence?
Just my thoughts...
I think these 50GB drives exist only in your mind. Search and see if you can find them.
Also, 10 is the yardstick? What about when we went from 5 to 10?
Have you found that 50GB drive yet? Do you remember ever seeing a 50GB drive? In an MP3 player? A notebook computer? A desktop?
Frank
frankly said:
I believe he said he saw it on the front page of Canada's leading newspaper. That's how he "caught" it. By the sounds of things, it would be pretty hard to miss. As far as people following the progression of electronics, that's most likely the exception not the rule. I think most people interested in buying an mp3 player would just get the cash together and buy it. (Remember: for the most part, the people on this board are not indicative of the average consumer.) So, I don't see how the argument would be considered weak.
You're right in that we are assuming that Apple and Toshiba have an NDA. However, it is a good assumption; it's not "hot air" as you so eloquently put it. As far as facts are concerned, well, I wasn't present when Apple and Toshiba made any agreements. However, this article from Electronics Design Chain Magazine does support our point.
http://www.designchain.com/coverstory.asp?issue=summer02
Here are a few excerpts (my bold):
Although no one could accuse Apple, let alone Jobs, of being shy about product promotion, it's a different story when it comes to its engineering and building processes. The company has always been tighter lipped than the Pentagon when it comes to releasing design chain details.
...and further down in the article...
Because of the unusually restrictive nondisclosure agreements in place among Apple, PortalPlayer and other members of the sub-design chain, key officials were not able to directly comment on their work with Apple. However, some members of the subchain provided Electronics Design Chain Magazine with a glimpse inside the iPod core.
Squire
stcanard said:
So Toshiba said nothing about the iPod being upgraded at all, simply that they were going to start making 60GB drives and that Apple would be buying them. The Globe and Mail came to the conclusion that the iPods were being upgraded. The 60GB drives that Apple is buying could be destined for a totally new product (if they are Apple's anger actually would make sense to me). It is the journalists in question jumping to conclusions and presenting them as facts that is really causing the problem.
pjkelnhofer said:
60GB Zire killer! A video and music playing iPod with PDA function would rock!!
Could these drives be put in a laptop? As in to save power or space. Are they fast enough for that?
BeoVir said:
Or maybe a Apple "Libretto"
http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/pc/catalog/ff/ff1100/index_j.htm
Now that would rock for the digital photographer among us.