Apple Announces Apple TV Take 2 + Price Drop

[skiwhitman]

Actually, many of us have LCD flat panels that are either 720p native, or they're some weird "in-between" resolution -- my Sharp Aquos has 768 scanlines, for example. Looks great displaying 1080i content and 720p from OTA antenna. When I download HD movie and game trailers on my PS3, I typically download them in 720p, because the quality difference between 720p and 1080i/p on my display isn't so great (but the difference between 480i/p and 720p is pretty obvious).

I should also note that 1080p isn't a broadcast standard -- it was only ever meant for pre-recorded media (i.e., next-generation high def DVD discs).

There are many cases where 1080i looks inferior to 720p -- this is why ESPN and the Fox TV network only broadcast in 720p. 1080i looks bad for scenes with lots of motion in them -- action movies, car races, athletic events, etc.

Personally, if I am going to be downloading HD content online as a movie rental, I would prefer progressive over interlaced, so 1080i is a no-go for downloaded content. That leaves 720p and 1080p. And the bitrate for 1080p is double that of 1080i for the same frame rate; considering how 1080i has a higher bitrate than 720p, imagine how much longer it would take to download a 1080p movie versus a 720p movie? There are significant costs associated with serving up lots of rich high-def media, and they have to do with bandwidth. So 720p is a good compromise, and is still considered high definition.

Well said. This has been the most intelligent post so far. I have the ability to choose between 720p and 1080i on my HDTV and find that 720p is better for most things I watch; sports, action. Discovery HD Theater looks incredible at 720p, too!

I am very excited for the ATV update. I have been using it mainly for music and photos without much movies, so this will be PERFECT!!!! Yay Apple!!!

 

[stompy]

My my... was THAT ever a well thought out and articulated argument.
The links you point to are absolutely correct as they apply to human perception.
Go have a talk with Nigel about 11 being well, LOUDER, than 10.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was replying to the post that basically said "if it's not 1080p, it's not HD." For many sizes of TV and viewing distance, there's nothing wrong with 720p, as referenced in the links.

 

[BabyFaceMagee]

720p or 1080p/i?

Calling 720p and touting as HD is a bit of a stretch these days. If it ain't 1080p/i it ain't HD.

That's a ridiculous statement. Most people can't tell the difference between a 720 image from 1080 anyway whether interlaced or progressive on any screen 50 inches or smaller from the distance people sit from a tv. You have to walk up and really compare to even see the difference. Considering standard tv definition is 240 lines/inch, 480p is even considered pseudo hd these days. 720 is fine for 95% of viewers and for those that it isn't, i'm sure there will be an Appletv2 in the next year or two to handle 1080p.

 

[GQB]

There was only a difference in perceived sharpness when people moved from VHS to DVD due to less/no noise in a well mastered DVD. Which is good in it's own right...

Everyone friend that came to my place yet though is stunned by what HD can really be when they see it.

When the combination of physical distance and screen size is right, everyone sees the difference...

I do get how you defined marginal in your previous post and i still can't get my head around that...

I am working with Sony's HDCam format in Video Post Production and I can tell you that 720 is dead meat. In three ears of HD workflow I have yet to see something that was intended to be 720... that conversion only happens when the station is broadcasting. Capture happens at 1080 since the studios and stations want to fill their footage libraries with only the best possible material.

The only reason the send 720 through at the moment is bandwidth constrains. So if you have a 720 TV that's good. But I tell you that in 5 years from now you won't even be able to buy them anymore.

Oh, I don't say there's no difference.
As a matter of fact, now that my Panny commercial monitor's price has dropped down to $950 for the HD model, I'm trying to figure out a way of dumping my ED for 3 or 4 hundred and swapping in the HD without my wife knowing it.
I'm just saying that this is not a new issue.
Just last month a good friend of mine was showing off his $20K speakers to me. Yeah, I heard a marginal difference. Really nice.
But I'm perfectly thrilled with the sound through my $2000 sound system and could not be happier with my 256K AAC files on my touch.
And I've been a musician all my life (with 20/20 hearing, thank you.)

My wife is a visual artist, yet spends zero time looking for a HD version of a movie she wants to DVR... she wants the content and isn't all that driven by high resolution.

My point is that all this pissing and moaning about AppleTV not supporting 1080p is irrelevant. Those ;for whom its critical should get another product, and shouldn't be bad-mouthing Apple for making a product based on ease of use, which is the critical issue here in terms of mass acceptance.

 

[Sparced]

Why do you people continue to act like the UK isn't the ripoff country of the world? I mean seriously, EVERYTHING is overpriced. Get over it already.

We all accepted the original price thats remained that way since its launch but when Apple discounts the existing hardware in the US but STILL expects us to pay the exact same cost for a firmware update they are taking the ****ing piss.

I've owned the 160GB after it got announced and was prepared to order another one today. If the US store didn't get the reduction it may not have bothered me but I refuse to be exploited.

Unless it gets lowered when the late iTunes rentals appear which is unlikely, I'm holding off.

 

[jbellanca]

Oh give me a break. Only the most pickey HD fanatics (aka AVSforum types) can even tell the difference between 720 and 1080 on < 100" screens.

No, give me a break! I have a Sony 60" SXRD set, and don't consider myself any extra picky, and the difference is huge. I've even tested 720p vs 1080p video on my parents and they can pick the difference each time.

 

[GQB]

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was replying to the post that basically said "if it's not 1080p, it's not HD." For many sizes of TV and viewing distance, there's nothing wrong with 720p, as referenced in the links.

Ah.
Missed the sarcasm.

 

[ChrisA]

So here's what I don't get. You have airport extreme with wifi, gigabit ethernet, and external USB disc plug. You have Apple TV with internal drive, video and audio out, and wifi. You have Time Capsule with wifi, internal drive and who knows what else. Much of the differentiation of the devices is software toggles.

I think you are saying "why doesn't Apple make something called a "Mac Mini". They do and it has all the features you ask for plus a lot more.

 

[w00master]

Just to let everyone know, all this fighting over "720 vs 1080" is kinda pointless. Why? iTunes Movie HD Rentals are *only* available to the AppleTV. Check out Gruber's analysis of the updated iTunes Terms of Service:

"(aa) Movies are viewable only on your Mac or Windows computer (using iTunes 7.6 or later), iPhone, video-enabled iPod (iPod touch, iPod nano (3rd generation), or iPod classic), or on TVs using your Apple TV. Movies in high definition resolution (HD) are viewable only on TVs using your Apple TV and must be downloaded directly to your Apple TV. Movies are viewable only on one device at a time."

http://daringfireball.net/2008/01/itunes_movie_rental_tos

Sucks.

w00master

 

[zedsdead]

Just to let everyone know, all this fighting over "720 vs 1080" is kinda pointless. Why? iTunes Movie HD Rentals are *only* available to the AppleTV. Check out Gruber's analysis of the updated iTunes Terms of Service:

"(aa) Movies are viewable only on your Mac or Windows computer (using iTunes 7.6 or later), iPhone, video-enabled iPod (iPod touch, iPod nano (3rd generation), or iPod classic), or on TVs using your Apple TV. Movies in high definition resolution (HD) are viewable only on TVs using your Apple TV and must be downloaded directly to your Apple TV. Movies are viewable only on one device at a time."

http://daringfireball.net/2008/01/itunes_movie_rental_tos

Sucks.

w00master

It really does...I do not understand why no HD movies can be purchased either...

 

[stompy]

Ah.
Missed the sarcasm.

n/p. You weren't the only one, so I obviously need some work. (edit: BTW, the reference to Nigel was perfect: his blank look is identical what you see when discussing this with most people. )

 

[BenRoethig]

Today was a step in the right direction, but aTV isn't ready for primetime yet. As long as it exists only as a step top box with an all too easy to loose tiny remote. AppleTV technology needs to be licensed to other companies for inclusion in their devices and Apple really needs to think about a universal remote an/or TV line.

 

[ChrisA]

If you want DVR look here

I just wish Apple would add DVR capability already... my TiVo and the dumb monthly fees that accompany it are just itching to be replaced.

Just what you asked for and yes it is free and runs on a Mac,
http://www.mythtv.org/modules.php?name=MythFeatures

I was waiting until today to decide to get this or not. It looks like I'll be setting up my own Myth TV system. My plan is to start small with just one video input and grow from there.

 

[j26]

...

My wife is a visual artist, yet spends zero time looking for a HD version of a movie she wants to DVR... she wants the content and isn't all that driven by high resolution.
...

A very important point in all this discussion about resolutions. People want to see a good story - resolution, while not irrelevant, is secondary

 

[w00master]

Just what you asked for and yes it is free and runs on a Mac,
http://www.mythtv.org/modules.php?name=MythFeatures

So where's the Cablecard/satellite support then? Until these HTPC products (MythTV, Elgato, etc) has Cablecard and/or Satellite support, I won't even consider any of these options.

It's why (besides the iTunes store) Apple will *NEVER* put a DVR in the AppleTV. Too messy and too convoluted.

w00master

 

[nubero]

Oh, I don't say there's no difference.
As a matter of fact, now that my Panny commercial monitor's price has dropped down to $950 for the HD model, I'm trying to figure out a way of dumping my ED for 3 or 4 hundred and swapping in the HD without my wife knowing it.
I'm just saying that this is not a new issue.
Just last month a good friend of mine was showing off his $20K speakers to me. Yeah, I heard a marginal difference. Really nice.
But I'm perfectly thrilled with the sound through my $2000 sound system and could not be happier with my 256K AAC files on my touch.
And I've been a musician all my life (with 20/20 hearing, thank you.)

My wife is a visual artist, yet spends zero time looking for a HD version of a movie she wants to DVR... she wants the content and isn't all that driven by high resolution.

My point is that all this pissing and moaning about AppleTV not supporting 1080p is irrelevant. Those ;for whom its critical should get another product, and shouldn't be bad-mouthing Apple for making a product based on ease of use, which is the critical issue here in terms of mass acceptance.

well in that case we speak more or less about the same thing. sure you can always get better speakers and tvs if you just throw around a lot of money...

my point is, that these 1080p tvs have become so cheap recently (and i'm still talking about brands) that it would just be a shame to still buy a 720 set... 1 1/2 years ago ok... but now? not anymore.

as for the apple tv, that thing has a whole lot of other problems... starting with the content makers / studios.

for me personally even 1080p downloads over tripple fiber would be uninteresting since they will (99% chance) only offer localized (meaning dubbed and edited) movies regarding where you live in europe. so ok i may be living in the german speaking part of switzerland but i want my films in their original languages (which is not only english but japanese, french, italian - you name it)
... and that problem gets perfectly solved by bluray...
again: this is just me (and hopefully a few other people)

 

[MickeyMac22867]

Reantals

Has anyone even RENTED a movie yet.

I thought they said that some titles were available today through iTunes. Am I Blind? I sure can't find them.

 

[inkswamp]

What's going on with all that talk about digital downloads of Music and Movies recently? If you buy the CD you get the highest quality Audio and the long-life backup for free...
Don't even get me startet about HD Movie downloads.

Being a lifelong Pink Floyd fanatic and having grown up in the era when cassette tapes were the norm for music sales, I can tell you without any doubt that downloads beat this living @#$%& out of physical media. If I had a nickel for every copy of The Wall or Dark Side of the Moon I had to buy to replace one that was stolen or lost or mangled in the tape player or otherwise damaged in some strange way, I would have enough money to hire the band to play at my next birthday party.

That CD "backup" is only as good as the material it comes on. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that a thin piece of plastic with microscopic bits written on its surface is hardly the be-all end-all when it comes to data security. And anyway, the last time I checked, you can back up iTunes purchases on that same piece of plastic.

Your point eludes me.

 

[Madame Defarge]

It still can't do 1080p or lossless surround sound, so my next disposable $250 is still earmarked for a Blu-Ray player. Maybe the next hardware update to the little box will be the one that gets me to splurge. Until then, I'd just as soon hook up the HDMI and optical cable to my MacBook. It does 1080p and Dolby Digital (thanks to Perian).

I hope Apple is planning on adding the iTunes store interface and on-screen movie rental functionality to FrontRow. That would be a big oversight if they don't.

Re: iTunes functionality, me too. Right now, the number of TV and movies up on iTunes, is small, but if they're going to compete with Nexflix, they will need to add thousands of titles to make it worth while. If they do beef up their selection it seems like the only practical solution for most people, would be to choose through iTunes.

However, the Apple web site claims that you don't need a computer to access the library. Scrolling through hundreds of titles, without a search function, probably isn't going to work for most people.

Being able to download movie rentals, would be fabulous. But if Apple doesn't have a large and wide ranging content, that's easily browsed, it won't be the "great leap forward", that it could be.

 

[rogerm]

I'm glad to see that the Apple TV still receives plenty of focus at Apple. Not only are they bringing it up to par with the latest features of iTunes (Movie rentals) and iPhone/iPod Touch (iTunes store), they're also adding a brand new feature with flickr support, which the iPhone and iPod Touch don't have yet.

I'm hoping that Apple will add internet radio as a feature to the Apple TV. I'd even be willing to pay for a software upgrade if includes that.

It would also be great if Apple released an official plugin SDK for the Apple TV, similar to what they are releasing for the iPhone, to allow third party developers to implement some of the features that Apple TV users have been requesting.

 

[jettredmont]

There was only a difference in perceived sharpness when people moved from VHS to DVD due to less/no noise in a well mastered DVD. Which is good in it's own right...

Ummm ... VHS offered 230 horizontal lines of resolution at 30 frames per second (essentially, it captures one interlaced "field" and repeats that on the second field). DVD offers 480 (initially interlaced due to the TV only accepting interlaced signals, but eventually progressive). While vertical lines of resolution are squishy on an analog signal, you would be hard pressed to find a VHS player capable of resolving half as many pixels across as the DVD player (640-720)!

There was, indeed, a "real" resolution jump going from VHS to DVD, of about 4x as many pixels, roughly on par with going from DVD to HD (slightly less than the jump to 1080p, slightly more than the jump to 720p)!

Of course the most notable advances were in pixel accuracy/color bleed, tape degradation, media size, and audio capabilities.

 

[skellener]

So no HD "TV" content? Only movies?

 

[nubero]

Your point eludes me.

if you had read my other posts it wouldn't have.

i'm not saying it's perfect but it's still the best option out there. seems i have to repeat myself that i have a few very well alive discs from 1982, 1983. mind you that the CD came out in '82 so i think that's not too shabby...

btw maybe i should clarify: digital storage isn't bad per se. but downloads in worse than CD quality (even if marginal) that you pay for, that's what bugs me.

again: i'm not talking about the occasional song. but your whole library??

 

[skellener]

I just wish Apple would add DVR capability already... my TiVo and the dumb monthly fees that accompany it are just itching to be replaced.

Never gonna happen. That's not their market. Why would they let you record for free what they can charge you for to download?

 

[nubero]

Ummm ... VHS offered 230 horizontal lines of resolution at 30 frames per second (essentially, it captures one interlaced "field" and repeats that on the second field). DVD offers 480 (initially interlaced due to the TV only accepting interlaced signals, but eventually progressive). While vertical lines of resolution are squishy on an analog signal, you would be hard pressed to find a VHS player capable of resolving half as many pixels across as the DVD player (640-720)!

There was, indeed, a "real" resolution jump going from VHS to DVD, of about 4x as many pixels, roughly on par with going from DVD to HD (slightly less than the jump to 1080p, slightly more than the jump to 720p)!

Of course the most notable advances were in pixel accuracy/color bleed, tape degradation, media size, and audio capabilities.

well in that case i'm wrong there. it is some time ago now... though personally i always had the impression that a good quality VHS in a decent deck looked better than tv broadcasts you could get through cable receiver... (depending on station of course)