Yes, it's possible. In Portugal it's called "computer engineering" and it belongs in the engineering branch, but there is no direct translation, as it has components of both American computer science and engineering.
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Apple Announces New Mac Pros With Up to 12 Cores, SSD Options
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Yes, it's possible. In Portugal it's called "computer engineering" and it belongs in the engineering branch, but there is no direct translation, as it has components of both American computer science and engineering.
I'm sorry, TheNoize, but your argument fails apart. In this particular instance it's not the Mac Pro that is overpriced, but the software that requires expensive hardware bits to run properly. If the Mac Pro were priced less, then the parts the software requires might not be present and the Mac Pro would be worthless, for your purposes.
Also, you do have a choice (you say so yourself) but you find that the Mac solution suits your needs better. So Apple is doing what it is supposed to do as a for-profit company. It is maximizing it's profit by charging for the value that you place on using a Mac. You may find it expensive, but as long as you place more value on using a Mac than an alternative then Apple will charge for that value. Free Market Economy and all that. I think the majority of complaints here are that Apple is playing the free-market game better than anyone else, at the moment.
Not the best analogy.... Judicial means can be brought to bear to force you pay your taxes, your goods can be seized, you can go to jail, etc etc.... none of those options are available to Apple to make you buy the latest, greatest Mac Pro.
I know you want the Mac Pro, and feel that your productivity would be enhanced by using it - but perhaps shopping the refurb store for a discounted model, or buying second hand, is a compromise that you can work with, eh?
ok, if you guys are so smart, what date will the Mac Pros go on sale in August?
Yeah!
I still want it..
Carillon audio pc.
BASE SPEC
980X 3.33GHz 6 Cores 12 threads
Quiet Cooling
Gigabyte X58 - PCI - PCIe
HD4350 Dual output silent GPU
3GB (3x1GB) DDR3 1333MHz
1TB WD Hard Disk
650W Quiet PSU
3 Port Ti Firewire
Windows 7 64bit - Custom Install
AC1 19" Rack case
£1989.00.
Compares very favorably and is £10 cheaper than the base Quad Mac pro!
But I still want a bloody Mac!
Carillon audio pc.
BASE SPEC
980X 3.33GHz 6 Cores 12 threads
Quiet Cooling
Gigabyte X58 - PCI - PCIe
HD4350 Dual output silent GPU
3GB (3x1GB) DDR3 1333MHz
1TB WD Hard Disk
650W Quiet PSU
3 Port Ti Firewire
Windows 7 64bit - Custom Install
AC1 19" Rack case
£1989.00.
Compares very favorably and is £10 cheaper than the base Quad Mac pro!
But I still want a bloody Mac!
So I was right ? All this time you've accused me to not be listening to you, yet I was, you just weren't making a very convincing argument and you come back and basically say I was right all along when I replied this :
You prefer to use OS X. You don't have to. I'm expecting an apology for all the grief you've given me.
Do you ever have anything else to do than argue completely moot points about who needs what to work when and where??? I think you need to get over it. Apple is neither the end be-all nor are they completely without merit that someone can just go get a PC with Windows at the drop of a hat. Some of us have software libraries that cost actual money and going to buy a Windows version just so we don't have to buy hardware from Apple isn't always the best option. Forced? No, but it's still a hose job on Apple's part. I love Logic 9.1 (Mac only) and I really like my 2008 era MBP, but I do NOT like the newer MBPs with glass reflective screens, SD card readers instead of a real expansion port, etc. Yeah, I could go buy Cubase (even if I don't like it as well) and get a Windows machine instead next time, but that's not only thwarting my own software, but given this is a hardware only issue, not an operating system issue, the problem shouldn't exist.
I should be able to get the hardware I NEED, not be forced to buy hardware they want to sell me. It's really simple. If they don't want to offer "pro" level hardware because they think the margins aren't worth it than for goodness sake they should license that particular segment to another manufacturer who WILL make that kind of hardware available for OSX professionals! Apple would make money in that market without having to manufacturer any of the hardware and they still wouldn't have to give up their toy computer iMac line to anyone.
The problem is that Apple doesn't listen to their customers anymore (they dictate to them) and they couldn't care less about professionals' needs at this point. It's a sad situation and former loyal customers are getting hosed. It's that simple. But you seem to want to get on here and just argue the "love it or leave it" thing until it's been driven straight down through the pavement and into the core of the earth. We get it. You don't need to keep repeating yourself a thousand times over. We simply don't agree with you. PERIOD.
All I hear is "Apple needs to give me what I want". Well they don't and won't. Now the choice is up to you, what are you going to do about it ? Cry on forums all days ?
Either the Mac Pro is essential to you and your career or it's a toy you just wished was cheaper. On the one hand, it doesn't matter, it's an expense, on the other, plenty of toys elsewhere.
Interesting read...
it seems like Willard's main point is that Apple is didn't outfit the MacPro for professionals:
"It’s not that Apple has overcharged for their machines, it’s that Apple has under-built the rest of what makes the processor speed useful in the modern computing era. "
- this was in response to someone who posted a price comparison of Dell to Apple. That is, he agrees that Apple is priced competitive, but to achieve this, they skimped on the parts of the platform. (They used multi-processors Xeon platform to get the performance, but didn't include the SAS backplane, and eSATA support, etc).
However, from many of the posts on this board, it seems like users want price/performance of Core i7, but not pay for the robustness of the Xeon platforms.
Also,
"When Apple switched over to using Intel processors, they opened themselves up to direct and undeniable competition
I agree with this, but from many of the posts on this board seem to suggest that it's not direct competition due to some software that's only available (or works well) on the Mac. That is, direct competition seems to imply that a professional can just switch over, but there's debate - alot of "Pros" say they can't (without impacting their productivity or industry constraints).
P.
I'm sure that didn't quite come out the way you meant it ?? Because if that is the case then I should be able to complain that Nikon Cameras should build their cameras with lenses from Mamiya because I prefer working with Mamiya glass? I'm sure somebody will bring up a car analogy, but really - it can be extended to almost anything.
Either someone finds that what a company is selling suits their needs, or it doesn't. Anybody is free to start using a different product. It would be nice if there was constitutional amendment against change, but there isn't.
There means that there is an opportunity here for somebody to start a new business. Platform migration insurance. Buy the software library of your choice, and if you change platforms you can exchange all your software over to the new platform. Vistek (a Canadian pro camera shop) and Phase One (a digital back provider for medium format cameras) do exactly that. Buy a Phase One digital back for what camera you are currently using, and if you switch cameras in the first 12 months Phase One will swap the previous back for one that fits your new camera platform.
The equivalent program from the pro software makers would go a long way to show just how much they care about their customers, eh?
This all would be very valid if this were a sudden change. However it's been this way ever since Jobs came back, so I continue to be baffled by your continued whining about it. You show up in EVERY THREAD with the same complaints. Has it changed anything? No.
Apple does not offer a lot of choices. They give you what they think you want. What they want you to want. Welcome to 1998.
The Core i7 comparisons don't help these discussions and they don't actually need to be made because the cost difference between a Core i7 desktop and a single socket workstation with Xeons and ECC are minimal and don't detract from the point. Just confuses it all. Then you haven people defending the pricing of "the Mac Pro" because dual socket models from Dell, HP etc are of a similar price, ignoring that single socket workstations elsewhere are a lot cheaper, so there are people on both sides looking at it from a narrow perspective which causes a lot of heated debate.
ok, if you guys are so smart, what date will the Mac Pros go on sale in August?
When in August? How can the Marketing people at Apple not go ahead and make the Mac Pro available for PREORDER?
The store still lists the 2009 models. Surely, no one is stupid enough to order one of those.
August is four days away. Wonder if this will go on until August 31st? I need to see all the pricing and options, before I order 3rd party SSDs and memory from Other World Computing.
ok, if you guys are so smart, what date will the Mac Pros go on sale in August?
31 August. They are actually ready to go now, but Apple just loves taunting Pro users.
Amen.
But really though, anyone complaining about a 12-core Xenon not being fast enough is well... delusional. You're getting two X5670's at 2.93GHz w/ a 3.33 GHz turbo. This update is GREAT, and I mean that quite seriously. Yes, its pricey. But if you want your non-xenon i7 hexacore for less, then by all means, go for it. Your stock hexacores in your HP's and what not are significantly cheaper for a reason; they're the rejects from the xenon line.
Also, lets talk RAM. Mac Pro RAM is ECC, most other consumer based machine's RAM is not. ECC RAM costs more than regular RAM. Furthermore, you CAN put up to at least 64GB of RAM in it, as far as I know the 16GB stacks by Samsung won't fit. Yes, its at 1333 MHz over 1600 Mhz. Marginal difference. Besides, if past models have been any indicator, you can always push the boundaries. I'd bet the 1600 MHz would work fine with the memory controller. That's of course an uneducated guess.
What Apple should be striving for is the top for its BTO options; it should be something like a Boxx system; for example: here; especially the OC'ed 8500 xxtreme. I mean, obviously that's out of line for the lower end standard configurations, but since BTO already costs so much, why not spread higher? Of course OSX would then need real professional applications outside of FC, etc, but I bet if they had an OC'ed hexacore that would really shut people up
It's a shame that OSX doesn't support IBM anymore... the Power7 is mighty nice as well...
No, it means that I should be able to either buy (or build if necessary) the hardware I need. Apple has built the current Mac Pro for whom, exactly? It's priced too high for consumers and it's missing too many modern features (eSata, multiple firewire buses, USB3, lack of PCI slots to make up for it, etc.) for Pros. In the PC world, it's not hard to find SOMEONE that offers what you're looking for and if they don't have exactly what you want, you can buy it piece-meal and build it yourself (or any number of shops will do it for you). Apple's only competition is an ENTIRE PLATFORM (i.e. you must go with Windows or Linux if you don't like the hardware Apple offers) and so that can get away with "take it or leave it". THAT is what I find most objectionable. If they don't want to offer a TRUE Pro machine, then they should at least let someone else do it. The operating system should NOT be tied to the hardware and vice versa because that is what creates these problems. You're using Final Cut Pro or Logic and if you cannot get the hardware you want, too bad. I guess you better get to liking Cubase or something because there is NO OTHER HARDWARE. If Apple would at least listen to their customers and offer what is needed by most people then it wouldn't matter if that's all there was, but they don't listen at all. They use every excuse in the book (bag of hurt) to prop up other market areas (i.e. iTunes downloads) instead of letting the customer decide what he or she actually needs or wants. I find that very underhanded to say the least. You can call it good business if you want, but unhappy customers don't come back and sooner or later the gadget fad is going to either end or become overcrowded with competitors at are doing it as well or better for less than Apple.
The worst part is that is a complete artificial construct of Apple's doing to limit competition and the result is the current Mac Pro that serves no one. Apple will then turn around and day no on is buying it and use that as an excuse to get out of that market segment entirely, abandoning all their professional software in the process and leaving Pros hanging high and dry OR Pros will have no other choice but to work with it anyway as best they can and Apple will say, "See? It's GREAT. Everyone's buying it!" It's the same reason thinks the iMac is still a great "desktop" in 2010. Of course Mac fans are buying it. What other choice do they have? Drop $2500+ on a Mac Pro plus similar graphics card?
At least with a car I can get after-market upgrades and make it into what I want if that's all I have left to do. Try doing that with an iMac. Besides, a car is a car. A computer is at LEAST as much about the operating system as the hardware when it comes to a Mac and nothing is more irritating than needing a hardware upgrade but feeling stymied by the lack of choices that you actually want (that they USED to offer!) like matte screens, various expansion ports, interchangeable batteries, etc. Apple also used to be on top of the game and innovate in computers. Now they innovate in phones and follow the leader in computers and all because they don't care about traditional computers anymore.
No, it would be nice if there were a law (actually there is, but the government refuses to enforce it) preventing a company from tying their hardware to their software by artificial/contractual means for the sole purpose of thwarting competition to increase profits.
Simply being able to buy the hardware I need like I can with a Windows machine is all that's actually needed and that would be possible if the government would stop Apple from saying you can't build clones. On the other hand, I do fault software companies for not doing what Steam and Telltale games are doing and that is if you buy the game on one platform, you get a version for BOTH platforms so you don't have to worry about migration. That wouldn't help with Final Cut Pro and Logic (and any other software that might be Mac only), but it would be helpful with the vast majority of Mac software that IS available for Windows. It's not such a big problem for Windows users migrating to the Mac because they can take their Windows software with them and run it under virtualization or Boot Camp. Apple forbids running OSX under virtualization or on a PC, so once again they stack the deck in one direction only. It might be legal, but that doesn't make it right.
If the playing fields were even then the best product would always win based on its actual merits, not on what software you're forced to use to do business or which you don't want to forfeit and buy all over again because you're unhappy with either the operating system (e.g. Vista) or the hardware (e.g. iMacs as the only consumer desktop Macs).
First of all, people like you show up in every thread validating Apple's stance. Does that change anything? Do people feel great about arguing for Apple all the time to do whatever they feel like? I argue for what I believe in. If enough people were to step up and do the same, Apple might listen. That's what it takes for them to offer bumpers or at least something. But a handful of voices alone won't do it. When they hear a chorus of Kool-Aid praising them for their latest sub-par offering, they will think just the opposite, that they can do whatever they want and still make money.
And it is NOT the same as it was in 1998 (unless you mean Apple is on the brink of going South again; I'd say give that a few more years for Apple to dig their own graves and the iPhone glitz to wear off a bit). Apple used to offer a consumer level tower (PowerMac) in the $1500-2000 range that was expandable. I'm using one right now, in fact. It came out three years after Steve returned so it's not like "his" Apple wasn't a part of it. The difference is back then he actually cared about Macs and the Pro market. He's now so consumed with lust after hand-held mobile devices, he's lost all site of the home market and is comparing desktops to "trucks" for goodness sake.
This old 2001 era PowerMac with a 1.8GHz upgrade is more than usable for running my whole house audio/video server, word processing and surfing the web and what not. It didn't come with USB 2.0. No problem. $45 and I have it. It didn't have Sata and had a hard drive size limit. No problem. $50 and I have a Sata and run 1.5TB Barracuda drives and get over 100MB/sec. It came with a crappy video card. No problem. I threw a flashed ATI 9800 Pro in there for $80. I could have even gotten a more recent Nvidia card to work for a bit more. The CPU was out of date after a number of years. It now has a 1.8GHz 7448 G4 from three years ago that gives me 1/4 the power of my brand new MBP from only two years ago (in a 9 year old computer with only one cpu versus a 2 core chip, that's not too bad). DVD writer? No problem. I could even put a BD burner in it and it would work with Toast. I can fit four internal hard drives in it. The point is that I didn't need a whole new computer just to get new features and this machine never cost $2500-5000. How many iMacs from 2001 are still running and are still powerful enough to actually be truly useful? This thing feels almost as fast as my MBP for most typical day-to-day apps (e-mail, web, word processing, photo viewing, music, etc.) and until I recently got a newer 7200 RPM 2.5" drive in the MBP to use with Logic, the hard drive was faster as well. No, it's not speed demon, but show me an iMac from back then that would be at all usable like this. This thing has been on nearly 24/7 since I bought it. It keeps on ticking and it was Made In the USA (at least assembled here), not China.
Obviously, you don't quite understand just how stupid people can be.
I'd be willing to bet the new Mac Pros are ready to go right now, but there is still too much stock of the old models on hand. So, their solution is to update the Mac Pro, but not make the new models available for a week or two. This leaves enough time to get rid of the old models.Honestly, even just the way the Mac Pro page says "Coming August" is genius. That date is enough to satisfy everyone, but vague enough that people who need a machine now will go ahead and order a 2009 model.
Congratulations on your salary and bonus this year. You obviously don't need to worry about "value" and "price/performance".
Sure I do. It's the best value in a MacOS machine that meets my requirements. The price is reasonable, and further it's tax deductible. It's all good.
Does it really matter? It's their money and I'm pretty sure they can do whatever the heck they want with it. If they want to light cigars with $100 bills, then so be it.
Good Lord, this is preposterous statement. If you spent more than $2.00 on your coffee maker, and more than $12.00 on your toaster then you must just be rolling in the money, got cash to burn, must use paper money instead of toilet paper in the loo, live the high-life, and have an extravagant life-style of riches, drink bubbly with your OJ, and have at least one too bedrooms.
Because that is what I paid for my coffee maker and toaster, and is as obvious as the face on your nose that since it's good enough for me then anyone who spent more than that is thick as a board. Really.
Yeah, if I had $5000 to burn, I might want to order one too. At least Logic (freaking awesome software IMO despite the complaints by some about the core engine) will support extra cores except during a bounce (then it reminds me of Final Cut Pro which doesn't support extras cores for jack squat...very odd for professional software from Apple when they push a 12-core machine now). But I guess "professionals" don't need eSata, USB3, Blu-Ray or multiple firewire buses (let alone FW 1600 or FW3200 Apple could have included seeing as they are the key patent holder; why develop something if you don't want to use it? Oh that's right. They don't want to compete with themselves and "Light Peak" despite the fact the former has devices out there already and the latter is still a lab monkey). I doubt they will EVER support USB3, to be honest. It's a competitor for Light Peak and Apple only begrudgingly supported USB2 when it became obvious they needed it. USB3 isn't needed for every day devices so Apple will plead the 5th, I think. I can imagine Intel putting it on the motherboard for free at some point and Apple actually disabling it on purpose. I wouldn't put it past them, that's for certain. They've shipped iPhones with 802.11N chips and left them in G mode despite the fact they know that it slows down home networks that are running N.
The only thing preposterous I see is someone comparing a $5000 computer (whereby a non-ecc equivalent in the PC world goes for $1200) to a $12 coffee maker.
I mean seriously, if you're going to use coffee makers as a frame of comparison, you could at least an example that makes sense (say an Elektra A1C versus a Pavoni versus a Cecilware or something, not Cecilware dual head commercial espresso maker versus a Black & Decker drip pot at Sears or a Mr. Coffee steam based espresso maker.
In other words, $5000 isn't exactly pocket change even in the professional market. People expect it to have the features they're looking for if they're going to spend that kind of money, not get the features of a $600 semi-manual Silvia (nice machine for the money, BTW) for the price of a $3500 Cecilware small scale commercial automatic. In other words, if the Silvia cost $3500, it would get laughed out of existence. At $600 it's a great piece of equipment. The Mac Pro is overpriced for what it offers in 2010. If they had added the ancillary features Pros were asking for (multi-bus FW, more PCI, eSata on the motherboard, etc.), then maybe it would be worth its asking price, but cramming 12 high-end CPUs into the chassis of a current Mac Pro is like cramming a 1000HP engine into the body of a Honda Civic. Yeah, there are some people that do exactly that, but most people would rather see that engine in something like a Corvette. Never mind that Apple doesn't even offer a Honda Civic. The iMac and Mini is more like a motorcycle (more portable, but lacks room for multiple passengers and other gear).
I'm drinking no such Kool Aid. I realize (as I have since 2006, when the first Mac Pro came out for $2499, the same as the current model) that Apple wants to play in the workstation market, and the all-in-one market, but no desktop market. It's been this way for several years now. Had it bothered me, I wouldn't have bought into Apple products, or I would have had an exit strategy. Surely it's common sense that this is one of the risks involved when choosing a one vendor platform, is it not? Since 2006, the line has not changed that much at all. Have you been complaining that long?
I am not locked into Apple. There's Nuendo, Sonar, Cubase, Audition and Pro Tools for audio. Premiere and Avid for video. CS5 on both platforms. Office on both platforms. VMWare on both platforms (actually, it's better on Windows and Linux). There are crossgrades constantly for these platforms. As soon as someone says they're "locked" into Apple, they start using Apple as a crutch they blame, not a tool.
Those years of the $1500 tower are long over. Since at least 2006. When are we going to let that go? I think it's pretty obvious Apple's not interested in that market. So if that's important to you, time to start migrating to Windows 7. And sorry, that PowerMac tower may feel fast, but it gets spanked by even the lowliest of Core 2 Duos these days. That goes for a Mac or Windows PC.
As for the Made in the USA comment: well yeah, that sucks. But NOTHING in computers is made here. Nothing. You may be able to buy an overpriced Falcon Northwest that's ASSEMBLED in the US, but the components are all Chinese. Blame the Americans at large. We love our cheap Chinese crap.
I buy American when possible; guitars, amps, clothes, whatever. But that gets more difficult all the time.
So keep complaining on a non-Apple owned board, and see how far that gets you. They're not changing, because they're making more money now than ever. I think that's plainly obvious, whether that's painful to you or fine to me.