Apple Asked Google Not to Use Multi-Touch in Android?

[Scottsdale]

I could be totally wrong here. But the first time I ever saw multi touch was at TED Conference. There was a guy who developed an inexpenive projection screen that projected from the bottom and it made the surface of glass "table" into a multi touch display. That is where I saw multi touch first, and I always figured Apple lifted the idea there hopefully by paying the guy. The inventor of this display was at TED and showed to the audience the same pinch, swipe, and etc motion that Apple uses on trackpads and iPhone. Maybe Apple somehow created it first, but that's not the way I remember it.

So I don't know quite how Apple "owns" the right to exclusively use it??? Would be nice to know.

 

[MattInOz]

Touch goes back decades, not years. I did capacitive multi-touch games for casinos back around 1993.

Thanks for the info.....
Why does all the cool technology get used for killing or robbing people first?

 

[Eso]

The iPhone patent dummy.

You mean this one?

I've done the liberty of reading the claims of this patent for you, and it hardly encompasses

almost all implementations of multi-touch

In fact, not only is every command specified on the contact of "one or more fingers", but for those commands actually implemented on the iPhone, they are all single-touch gestures (swipe, vertical/horizontal/free-form panning). Any talk of multi-touch in context of this patent is quite inaccurate.

So when kdarling says,

Either name one, or stop making stuff up. Apple has no such patents.

he means to actually cite these patents. Otherwise, you are making blind claims based on assumptions you have drawn from naught but a headline, placing you in a poor position to call anyone else a dummy.

 

[kdarling]

I could be totally wrong here. But the first time I ever saw multi touch was at TED Conference.

You're right, that's probably the first time many people saw it. However, it's been around much, much longer.

Short overview of multi-touch systems

A lot of things are also used in the military, and don't show up in civilian usage for years. I was using Top Secret digital scanners in field for NSA, long before anyone outside knew about them. (Each one had circles printed on it, where you would place thermite grenades in case of imminent capture.) Anyway, there have been multi-touch military devices as well.

 

[Scottsdale]

You're right, that's probably the first time many people saw it. However, it's been around much, much longer.

Short overview of multi-touch systems

A lot of things are also used in the military, and don't show up in civilian usage for years. I was using Top Secret digital scanners in field for NSA, long before anyone outside knew about them. (Each one had circles printed on it, where you would place thermite grenades in case of imminent capture.) Anyway, there have been multi-touch military devices as well.

Thanks for the information. It's great to know.

 

[wonderbread57]

Um, DOD Hotline, we have a possible leak of classified information from a blowhard on an internet bulletin board. I am emailing the source of this dissemination. Please confirm receipt.

Back to the topic, obscure and/or secret uses do not inhibit the filing of a patent. This is not an "i did it first" contest, it's an "i patented it first" contest.

 

[Scottsdale]

But why does Apple get to request anyone NOT use it then??? Seems unfair to me. Just a thought...

 

[kdarling]

Back to the topic, obscure and/or secret uses do not inhibit the filing of a patent.

They do inhibit the public revealing of it. Over 5,000 patents are still kept secret in the US alone.

This is not an "i did it first" contest, it's an "i patented it first" contest.

And there's still no patent presented that would cause Google to not implement multi-touch.

The upshot is, if Google did ignore multi-touch because Apple asked, it was obviously for other reasons than patent fear.

Certainly Google has shown that they're willing to license technology they desire. The recent Exchange Activesync for Google Sync is a large example.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

It never ceases to amaze me how FUD becomes FACT in the land of the Internet where verification and research succumb to hysteria and mythology.

 

[I WAS the one]

... And this is why I went UBUNTU. to start from scratch...

 

[NT1440]

... And this is why I went UBUNTU. to start from scratch...

What does that have to do with android?

 

[branjosef]

Other companies can already make their own implementation of it and patent that. Why haven't they? You'd have to ask them.



Kind of uncalled for, and pretty presumptuous. Yes, I like Apple products, but this was more of a defense of proper use of patents.

The Apple/Google agreement aside, if Google wanted to make their own multi-touch implementation, there wouldn't be anything stopping them, even Apple raising a stink wouldn't win that one. If Google (or anyone) directly copied Apple's implementation, I'd expect Apple to sue and win. Apple hateboys would have a fun day with that one, though.

I wasn't necessarily trying to be mean, its just we get alot of die hard apple fanboys who seem to think Apple can do no wrong. My apologies

 

[iMaggot]

Damn........ Apple is so going to sue Palm lol

 

[needthephone]

This shows how Apple and the ridiculous intellectual property rights system is stiffling competition and hurting consumers.

What a ridiculous thing to say. So patents "stifle" competition. Patents stop your IP being ripped off. A company spends a lot of money developing some feature and then some fly by night company can take the idea and run with it, right?

The whole concept of patents was developed to protect companies investment in R&D.

Sorry what a ridiculous thing to say.

apple have come up with something unique and naturally everyone wants a piece of the action. OK but think of something else.

If apple have protected it then good luck to them and I hope they sue Palm and anyone else to the brink. Go get em apple.

oh and if you have any Palm shares sell them now when they are still worth something....

 

[wonderbread57]

MR can be attributed for the populous impression that Apple holds a multi-touch specific patent due to their Jan 26th headline "Apple Awarded iPhone and Multi Touch Patent"

https://www.macrumors.com/2009/01/26/apple-awarded-iphone-and-multi-touch-patent/

The story mentions this is the huge 358 page "iPhone" patent but also quotes this part of the patent, "A computer-implemented method for use in conjunction with a computing device with a touch screen display comprises: detecting one or more finger contacts with the touch screen display, applying one or more heuristics to the one or more finger contacts to determine a command for the device, and processing the command". Sounds general but alas, it was approved. Whether or not this can be upheld against, say the Pre, is for the courts to decide.

 

[MH01]

Technically Google have more cash but they have no influence over the industry like Apple.

They only make money because of low overheads and ridiculously high prices on advertising. Youtube, barely break even, ad supported. GMail, ad supported. Web apps, ad supported. Phones, they've sold a few.

Apple on the other hand, have the music industry under their thumb, shortly to have the film industry under their thumb, cornered the world on MP3 players, will corner the world on phones, cornered America on laptops.

What industry are you referring to? One could argue that google have a monopoly on the internet industry, and the money they make from advertising dwarfs that what apple makes.

In the end Advertising makes the most money.

And apple does not hold the music industry under its thumb, they have some muscle. Just because Jobs got his way on xmas in regards to DRM free music does not mean he holds it under his thumb. Itunes is not exactly the choice app for people who run PCs. Also outside of the US, Itunes prices are a rippoff.

Bold predictions about it corning the world of phones, and how on earth did you work out they have cornered the world of Laptops???

 

[ccuk]

What a ridiculous thing to say. So patents "stifle" competition. Patents stop your IP being ripped off. A company spends a lot of money developing some feature and then some fly by night company can take the idea and run with it, right?

The whole concept of patents was developed to protect companies investment in R&D.

Sorry what a ridiculous thing to say.

apple have come up with something unique and naturally everyone wants a piece of the action. OK but think of something else.

If apple have protected it then good luck to them and I hope they sue Palm and anyone else to the brink. Go get em apple.

oh and if you have any Palm shares sell them now when they are still worth something....

Go get em Apple? Are you kidding?! That statement right there shows where your head was at when you made that post.

Patents DO stifle competition. Many are made and never used so the patent owner can obtain royalties from the idea rather then ever actually intend using it. And the patents Apple have taken out with regards to multitouch are their attempt to prevent anyone else making a competetive product, which is not good for the consumer. Competition in the market place is the driving force behind innovation. Without it, companies become lethargic and don't make many updates to their products since there is no need... their prices remain high... why... no competition.

Apple haven't reinvented the wheel, they are just the first company to produce a touchscreen device which is very useable. The more companies producing devices similar to the iPhone in terms of usability the better as far as I am concerned.

 

[kdarling]

MR can be attributed for the populous impression that Apple holds a multi-touch specific patent due to their Jan 26th headline "Apple Awarded iPhone and Multi Touch Patent"

Yes, which was just as non-accurate as the previous headlines saying that Apple was allowing third party browsers.

Eso and I and others who actually READ the patent, immediately pointed out here that it was no such thing.

A couple of days later, cooler heads prevailed elsewhere as well, and we saw better researched articles such as this one from Engadget pointing out the fallacy of the headline.

The story mentions this is the huge 358 page "iPhone" patent but also quotes this part of the patent, "A computer-implemented method for use in conjunction with a computing device with a touch screen display comprises: detecting one or more finger contacts with the touch screen display, applying one or more heuristics to the one or more finger contacts to determine a command for the device, and processing the command". Sounds general but alas, it was approved. Whether or not this can be upheld against, say the Pre, is for the courts to decide.

The reason that sounds general, is because that's from the abstract, which is NOT the patent. Nor is the rest of the 300 pages, which are descriptions of it being applied.

The much more boring patent itself, is in the claims section, which is about two pages of related paragraphs, with one main device implementation stated in claim 1 and repeated in claims 11 and 17 for distribution via software and software media:

"a vertical screen scrolling heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to a one-dimensional vertical screen scrolling command rather than a two-dimensional screen translation command based on an angle of initial movement of a finger contact with respect to the touch screen display;"

So one requirement is using the initial angle to decide if you want to scroll vertically or move the page around. (The "one or more" also immediately tells us it's not directed solely at multi-touch.)

"a two-dimensional screen translation heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to the two-dimensional screen translation command rather than the one-dimensional vertical screen scrolling command based on the angle of initial movement of the finger contact with respect to the touch screen display;"

The next requirement is that you have a separate section of code that decides if you want to move the page around instead of scrolling vertically. Also based on initial angle.

"and a next item heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to a command to transition from displaying a respective item in a set of items to displaying a next item in the set of items"

And it also has code to decide if you want to scroll a list or choose an item from it.

Even a casual reader can tell it's not a patent on multi-touch.

Moreover, change or leave out any part of it, and you do not violate the patent.

Cheers, Kev

 

[branjosef]

Some patents I think are good. The guy who invented the cart corral at the supermarket. Good for him.. get your money protect your investment, but multi-touch technology? That's like patenting the way toilets flush or the way cars stop at an intersection. Just think if the windows (not the company -windows) GUI concept was limited to just one brand? That would suck. I look at multi-touch technology the same way. I think if someone line for line copied apples methods for doing it, well then that is inappropriate but if someone can come up with another way to incorporate multi-touch technology into their phone or computer, then they should be able to. It only betters the consumer in the end. Just think if Ford was the only company with anti-lock brakes and sued everyone else for incorporating that technology in their cars. That would suck and I bet alot of people would cry foul. Screw apple for trying to monopolize that technology. Good thing Xerox didn't feel that way in the early 80s..otherwise we would all be posting these comments via command line because xerox doesnt make computers.

 

[twoodcc]

wow! i'm glad that google has much respect for apple. i guess we'll see what happens with palm soon

 

[branjosef]

Bring on the palm pre.
Has anyone seen the hands on video of it. It looks pretty "snappy" - not slow at all.

 

[dizzy13]

Bring on the palm pre.
Has anyone seen the hands on video of it. It looks pretty "snappy" - not slow at all.

Remember the Pre will be competing against the 3rd gen iPhone, not the iPhone 3g

 

[branjosef]

Remember the Pre will be competing against the 3rd gen iPhone, not the iPhone 3g

I'm down with the iphone- make no mistake . I just look at it as spurring more competition resulting in more iphone like devices available for the consumer...which is always a good thing.

 

[QuantumLo0p]

Intellectual protection encourages new ideas, instead of copying old ideas.
Patent and copyright protection encourages competition and discourages copycat products by companies too lazy to develop new ideas.

Yeah. Just imagine if that guy who invented the wheel had put a patent on it. We'd be flying around in DeLorians equipped with flux capacitors.

 

[lamadude]

Actually there is a lot of debate on whether patents really do encourage R&D, many small companies might not innovate because they are affraid they'll get sued, and wether they are right or not the legal mess that creates is enough to drive them away.
Also you can look at all the amazing inventions that were done before the patents system existed, or all the music that was created before copyright existed.