fpnc said:
I think you might be forgetting some of the things that help firewire out, such as the ability to bypass the cpu for device operation. And many of those SCSI macs probably won't run garageband well, other than upgraded ones.
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Apple Asteroid?
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I think you might be forgetting some of the things that help firewire out, such as the ability to bypass the cpu for device operation. And many of those SCSI macs probably won't run garageband well, other than upgraded ones.
Apple Asteroid, was eMagic EMI?
Taken from engadget.com
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000790021529/
More evidence that Apple is indeed releasing a FireWire/USB breakout box. Earlier we speculated along with many others that Apple is developing a FireWire audio interface for GarageBand codenamed Asteroid or Q97. The breakout box will include multiple audio inputs, including two XLR microphone inputs. And now suddenly were reminded that a little while ago Apple bought a company called eMagic which makes a sub-$200 breakout box for Macs and PCs. Exactly.
Taken from engadget.com
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000790021529/
More evidence that Apple is indeed releasing a FireWire/USB breakout box. Earlier we speculated along with many others that Apple is developing a FireWire audio interface for GarageBand codenamed Asteroid or Q97. The breakout box will include multiple audio inputs, including two XLR microphone inputs. And now suddenly were reminded that a little while ago Apple bought a company called eMagic which makes a sub-$200 breakout box for Macs and PCs. Exactly.
well, since the topic is dead
has anyone used the M-audio omnistudio?
i am looking for an interface with onboard processing (not just mixing...i use reason and would like to offload cpu usage)
i knwo that the mbox is typically suggested...i just want to hear other options as pro tools is overkill in my opinion...at least right now.
i REALLY want a firewire interface...as i think that i would be able to get higher quality recording done. (my headphones have better specs than even the mboxes ins...avoidable?)
has anyone used the M-audio omnistudio?
i am looking for an interface with onboard processing (not just mixing...i use reason and would like to offload cpu usage)
i knwo that the mbox is typically suggested...i just want to hear other options as pro tools is overkill in my opinion...at least right now.
i REALLY want a firewire interface...as i think that i would be able to get higher quality recording done. (my headphones have better specs than even the mboxes ins...avoidable?)
Zigster said:
not a chance
you haven't ever really heard the audio quality of a pro tools system, have you? the mbox has never ever been primary product for digidesign, but only a nice portable on-location recording device that existing customers have requested. granted, there are a lot of mbox-only protools users, but that's not digidesign's priority. and even less is the competition, as there is really no comparison in quality.if apple releases a two-channel audio interface, it's not a mbox killer and not a protools killer. it's a consumer audio device that is cheap and is supposed to have "decent" quality, in comparison to focusrite preamps in mbox which are really "good" quality even compared to other studio grade gear.
the apple audio interface should have:
- firewire connection
- 2 "decent" quality preamps with phantom/pad/lo-cut/phase
- 2 line inputs (with both balanced trs and unbalanced rca connectors as this is a consumer device)
- 2 insert points
- spdif i/o
- midi i/o
- price point of $149 maxx (or $199 with a jam pack included)
most probably the device is only going to stream 2 channels in and 2 channels out as mbox does, but if apple allows individual streams to each i/o, that'd rock. for that price even i would be almost forced to buy one...
(but remember... that isn't very cheap price even compared to mbox. you don't get protools with it, and garageband is free already. you get what you pay for, folks.)
Engagebot said:
i agree. and i happen to own a presonus digimax lt and a presonus hp4
they build quality stuff...
RandomDeadHead said:
no way! if apple implemented proper REWIRE support (being able to rewire garageband stuff INTO protools), then it'd rock my world. garageband is good in what it does, but it's definetely not a protools killer.
pianojoe said:
yes. firewire can power up a small hard drive, so it can definetely drive a microphone. voltages can be transformed with little electronics, it's no biggie.
geminitsl said:
fact#1: usb is theoretically 11Mbps
fact#2: audio bandwidth can be calculated
let's take 24bit/44.1kHz audio for example, as that is today the standard in semi-pro sessions. that kind of audio takes exactly 24bits*44100samples/second => 1.01Mbits per second per channel, so in theory usb1 can take ten channels of such audio. that is five in, five out.
but unfortunately, that's only theory. usb has not been designed in real-time applications in mind, and is seriously lacking in being able to support such bandwidth without sample drops. you would have to be extremely lucky to have 4in-4out without errors, and that's the only reason why the mbox only allows 2in-2out. RELIABILITY, my friends, that's the most important feature in pro audio gear.
JFreak said:
I think your spec is wide of the mark for an Apple product aimed at consumers.
The FireWire connection is assumed and Apple are unlikely to feature a pre-amp that isn't pretty good. Phantom power has already been discussed and is expected to be on offer, so we can certainly agree there.
Lo cut and phase are both functions that can be fulfilled in software very easily, so I don't see the need for hardware to do that.
It doesn't need phono inputs as any user wanting to use one can get a couple of very cheap phono to mono jack converters and they will plug straight into the XLR/trs combo sockets and do the unbalanced conversion too. Combo sockets make sense as it allows the use of both a microphone or guitar, the two most likely input devices.
Insert points are also inappropriate as most processing can now be done as a software plug-in, so there's no need for external processing hardware at a consumer level. Anybody needing those features would need a more flexible audio interface anyway.
spdif would be very desirable, but initial reports suggest that it won't be included. I could see some sense in having an analogue Asteroid and a different digital one, but a dual function one would suit my needs better.
I don't think that MIDI will be included, but do have a hunch that this could be the device that makes mLAN a mainstream technology. See my earlier explanation for more details about that.
Don't forget that Apple universally make devices which are elegant and simple-looking. The very essence of Apple design is to strip away all that isn't needed and then to refine what remains to the highest degree possible.
Purpose for device:
Hmmm, lemme see if I can summarize, as I have been dealing with the exact issues that would be dealt with in this box.
(NOTE that everything below is simplification. An unfortunate circumstance in discussing audio is how there are exceptions to virtually anything you could possibly write in short form and the technical details on most of this stuff is both long and tedious. If you wanna, you can find it online. Get ready for printing dozens of pages and many nights falling asleep reading them.)
A. Junk microphones require no external power source. The are DYNAMIC which means that they operate with the small amount of signal actually generated by the physical action of the diaphram in the microphone. Better microphones are CONDENSOR, which (for the most part) require Phantom power. Power is sent through the XLR connector (the large 3 pin connector) to energize the microphone. The benefit is a stronger signal coming out of the microphone with dramatically less "noise" or unwanted junk signal.
With a cheap dynamic mic, usually the GAIN (amplification) of the signal is adjusted to provide a usable recording level, resulting in lots of noise as you are also amplifying everything including the unwanted stuff, like line noise picked up from nearby electrical devices, like power bricks or motors. It is like amplifying a whisper in a normal room; unheard room sounds become annoyingly loud.
With a quality mic (condensor) the original signal is louder and cleaner coming from the source (whatever you are recording) producing better results right out of the gate. A decent condensor mic is not expensive and a very nice one can be had for 150 dollars and up. Incidentally, if you want to see possibly the best microphone made in America, check out www.telefunkenusa.com to read about a company that produces exact reproductions of the most beloved microphone, maybe, in history. The original mics are now worth about 20k each on the open market and the new versions start at 6 grand. The website is very interesting and has a lot of information on it about how the company came about and technical details about this "uber-mic." Cool to read even for non-audio people.
Note that some better headset mics, while technically condensor, don't require phantom power. The small size of their diaphram allows the manufacturer to "pre-energize" the mic at the factory and it lasts the life of the microphone.
The short of it is; better signal at the start guarantees better quality down the line, in any case.
2. USB can be problematic for audio input, although it is usable. One big problem is "latency," a delay that occurs as the signal is encoded by the "box" and sent through the USB port. It means that if you are playing an instrument or singing and listening to the signal at the computer, it isn't realtime, but slightly delayed, which can create timing problems in performance and is, at the least, a pain. Usually, because of this, you monitor the sound with headphones somewhere else up the line, like at the USB box before it encodes it and sends it through the port. That will give you a realtime signal and not the "talk-radio-echo" effect you might hear otherwise. The slower the bus, the more compression the "box" has to do, the greater the latency. USB 1 is slow. Also the bus is shared among all devices.
Also, the USB port is only marginally suited to handle audio. Most USB equipment, like hubs, expect all the information to be in small chunks. Streaming data, like audio creates, can throw it all for a loop. Griffin recommends plugging directly into the machine because if you go through a hub, IT MAY NOT WORK. Their recommendation is not made lightly. Griffin makes a hub themselves that supports USB audio signals, if you are port-short. They sell it at their web site. It is not a gimmick, it is a solution to a serious problem with using standard USB hookup logic with an audio streaming device. Firewire would work better for this, I would have to imagine.
3. Mini-plugs suck No kidding! Mini-plugs are awful. They are delicate, they are small, they tend to be mechanically cheap. They often make poor contact internally, they wear out really quickly and get noisy and one false move with a device, headphone or microphone, can pull the wire right off the plug or bend it to the point of damage. As Bart once said, they both suck and blow. They were created for lightweight portable devices and for that they are fine. Honestly, even there, there should be a new standard, in my opinion. A $600 dollar iPod with a 39 cent headphone port is laughable. The fact that it works at all is surprising to me. I would guess a lot of replacement headphones are sold. (I am not an iPod user.)
4. Most audio-only companies are slow to create and update drivers, especially for cheap devices. For example, I own a two USB audio input devices that Apple sell at their stores (they are mentioned above). Final Cut Pro won't run when the drivers for one of the boxes are present in the operating system. HUH? What is the deal with THAT? The company doesn't seem to be in a hurry to fix it, remaining one large step behind the operating system updates and application updates. For them, it is nothing but an expense. After all, you already bought the box, they got the profit and you would expect the driver update for free. Not high on their "to-do" list, I guess. The second box never worked right. I think it is poorly engineered. The company has directions from technical support on how to "whack" the USB bus using System Profiler so, maybe, you can get it working again when it just stops. Then again, you might just have to restart. ARRRRGH. So both sit, unplugged, on a shelf. Griffin's USB interface (Powerwave), on the other hand, works with the native Apple drivers and create no conflicts (at least for me).(GRIFFIN=Good people.) At the moment it works perfectly, as advertised. Lesson: don't expect a company making $1000 audio boxes to worry too much about the software for a $99 dollar box. The response will probably be underwhelming at best.
5. According to the rumored specs, optical i/o is included. Makes sense as Apple is starting to include optical connectors on their machines.
6. Native Firewire audio drivers in the operating system won't just make this box possible but will allow third parties to create new products using those drivers. I expect a minor flood of Firewire interfaces to follow this product to market, and the more the merrier.
I'm ready to plug in tomorrow, if Apple delivers as promised.
nagromme said:This is outside my area for sure... what are examples of how a breakout box like this would make GarageBand more useful? What does this do more easily than other methods? Just OS integration? (Not to sneeze at that. Or maybe a massively lower price would be enough
And I know the rumored specs are prelimary... but wouldn't more inputs (like optical) be important? Are those big plugs common for consumers? (But maybe this is "prosumer," not consumer.)
Hmmm, lemme see if I can summarize, as I have been dealing with the exact issues that would be dealt with in this box.
(NOTE that everything below is simplification. An unfortunate circumstance in discussing audio is how there are exceptions to virtually anything you could possibly write in short form and the technical details on most of this stuff is both long and tedious. If you wanna, you can find it online. Get ready for printing dozens of pages and many nights falling asleep reading them.)
A. Junk microphones require no external power source. The are DYNAMIC which means that they operate with the small amount of signal actually generated by the physical action of the diaphram in the microphone. Better microphones are CONDENSOR, which (for the most part) require Phantom power. Power is sent through the XLR connector (the large 3 pin connector) to energize the microphone. The benefit is a stronger signal coming out of the microphone with dramatically less "noise" or unwanted junk signal.
With a cheap dynamic mic, usually the GAIN (amplification) of the signal is adjusted to provide a usable recording level, resulting in lots of noise as you are also amplifying everything including the unwanted stuff, like line noise picked up from nearby electrical devices, like power bricks or motors. It is like amplifying a whisper in a normal room; unheard room sounds become annoyingly loud.
With a quality mic (condensor) the original signal is louder and cleaner coming from the source (whatever you are recording) producing better results right out of the gate. A decent condensor mic is not expensive and a very nice one can be had for 150 dollars and up. Incidentally, if you want to see possibly the best microphone made in America, check out www.telefunkenusa.com to read about a company that produces exact reproductions of the most beloved microphone, maybe, in history. The original mics are now worth about 20k each on the open market and the new versions start at 6 grand. The website is very interesting and has a lot of information on it about how the company came about and technical details about this "uber-mic." Cool to read even for non-audio people.
Note that some better headset mics, while technically condensor, don't require phantom power. The small size of their diaphram allows the manufacturer to "pre-energize" the mic at the factory and it lasts the life of the microphone.
The short of it is; better signal at the start guarantees better quality down the line, in any case.
2. USB can be problematic for audio input, although it is usable. One big problem is "latency," a delay that occurs as the signal is encoded by the "box" and sent through the USB port. It means that if you are playing an instrument or singing and listening to the signal at the computer, it isn't realtime, but slightly delayed, which can create timing problems in performance and is, at the least, a pain. Usually, because of this, you monitor the sound with headphones somewhere else up the line, like at the USB box before it encodes it and sends it through the port. That will give you a realtime signal and not the "talk-radio-echo" effect you might hear otherwise. The slower the bus, the more compression the "box" has to do, the greater the latency. USB 1 is slow. Also the bus is shared among all devices.
Also, the USB port is only marginally suited to handle audio. Most USB equipment, like hubs, expect all the information to be in small chunks. Streaming data, like audio creates, can throw it all for a loop. Griffin recommends plugging directly into the machine because if you go through a hub, IT MAY NOT WORK. Their recommendation is not made lightly. Griffin makes a hub themselves that supports USB audio signals, if you are port-short. They sell it at their web site. It is not a gimmick, it is a solution to a serious problem with using standard USB hookup logic with an audio streaming device. Firewire would work better for this, I would have to imagine.
3. Mini-plugs suck No kidding! Mini-plugs are awful. They are delicate, they are small, they tend to be mechanically cheap. They often make poor contact internally, they wear out really quickly and get noisy and one false move with a device, headphone or microphone, can pull the wire right off the plug or bend it to the point of damage. As Bart once said, they both suck and blow. They were created for lightweight portable devices and for that they are fine. Honestly, even there, there should be a new standard, in my opinion. A $600 dollar iPod with a 39 cent headphone port is laughable. The fact that it works at all is surprising to me. I would guess a lot of replacement headphones are sold. (I am not an iPod user.)
4. Most audio-only companies are slow to create and update drivers, especially for cheap devices. For example, I own a two USB audio input devices that Apple sell at their stores (they are mentioned above). Final Cut Pro won't run when the drivers for one of the boxes are present in the operating system. HUH? What is the deal with THAT? The company doesn't seem to be in a hurry to fix it, remaining one large step behind the operating system updates and application updates. For them, it is nothing but an expense. After all, you already bought the box, they got the profit and you would expect the driver update for free. Not high on their "to-do" list, I guess. The second box never worked right. I think it is poorly engineered. The company has directions from technical support on how to "whack" the USB bus using System Profiler so, maybe, you can get it working again when it just stops. Then again, you might just have to restart. ARRRRGH. So both sit, unplugged, on a shelf. Griffin's USB interface (Powerwave), on the other hand, works with the native Apple drivers and create no conflicts (at least for me).(GRIFFIN=Good people.) At the moment it works perfectly, as advertised. Lesson: don't expect a company making $1000 audio boxes to worry too much about the software for a $99 dollar box. The response will probably be underwhelming at best.
5. According to the rumored specs, optical i/o is included. Makes sense as Apple is starting to include optical connectors on their machines.
6. Native Firewire audio drivers in the operating system won't just make this box possible but will allow third parties to create new products using those drivers. I expect a minor flood of Firewire interfaces to follow this product to market, and the more the merrier.
I'm ready to plug in tomorrow, if Apple delivers as promised.
fpnc said:
I disagree completely on a couple of points.
I am seeing more Firewire devices introduced, not less. I just checked on camcorders. Number of DV camcorders (even the cheapest ones) that had Firewire: ALL. Number with USB video transfer:NONE. Firewire works better with "big data" and I don't see i/o data getting smaller, quite the opposite. And the cost differences between USB2 and 1394 devices has shrunk in the past couple years, substantially.
Those "well-established" audio companies do a crappy job creating products for non-professional audio users. Typically they don't care very much. The products are poorly integrated with other functions of the computer. They are hard to use, often. Also buggy and flaky. Their attitude is "Hey, we make REAL audio equipment. If you want to dance, we'll name the tune." I am personally tired of it. They can probably make a sub-100 dollar Firewire input box, but I remain convinced that it will probably p*ss me off as much as the two useless USB audio boxes that I bought from "established audio companies" now gathering dust on my shelf due to their horrible performance and poor software support. Let them learn how to create a consumer product from a company that knows how. Maybe they will become competent at it, for a change. Bitter? $300 dollars worth, so far.
You say "not likely?" I say "almost a certainty." The logic is infallible (no pun intended.)
Mark W. Lewis said:
Well, camcorders, hmmm....
How about computer peripherals, like disks?
USB 2.0 - but usually you can find a USB+1394 model for $30 to $40 more.
1394 and DV go together, for sure.
But 1394 digital cameras - not a growth area.
How about scanners with 1394? Fewer and fewer - 1394 is becoming the SCSI interface replacement - just a few higher end relics have it.
USB 2.0 really is "good enough" for most non-DV products....
Despite my recent PC hardware purchases, I am a big Apple fan.
I am just waiting to see where Apple goes 'CPU-wise'
in the next year or so.
Back to the 'Firewire Interface' topic...
The ASUS P5AD2-E Premium Motherboard that I recently
ordered features one 1394a and two 1394b ports.
______________________________
I saw that t.c. electronic was mentioned in an earlier post.
tc applied technologies division (TCAT) now has optimized new versions
of its technology to achieve breakthroughs in cost and
quality of consumer digital audio solutions.
One of which is the 1394B IEC 61883-6 "timing precise" audio streamer.
This technology solves the problem of reconstructing
the audio (and video) samples to the original timing of the source
DICE II is a monolithic CMOS ASIC capable of receiving and transmitting
up to 96 channels of audio data in accordance with the IEEE 1394 standard.
DICE II also functions as a cross bridge switch between any
combination of AES3, ADAT®, TDIF, ADC and DAC ports.
The new DICE II technology simplifies the interface to IEEE 1394
and other popular digital audio formats, while it maximizes
the clocking accuracy of audio samples.
______________________________
With the Aug. '04 announcement of AVID/Digidesign's aquisition of M-Audio
I am looking forward to some new 'interfaces' to surface soon (Winter NAMM/Jan 2005?)
______________________________
I found this comparision of 15 External Hard Drive Enclosures and Adapters
with USB 1.1/2.0, 1394a/b, and SATA interfaces informative.
Ultimatetone
I am just waiting to see where Apple goes 'CPU-wise'
in the next year or so.
Back to the 'Firewire Interface' topic...
The ASUS P5AD2-E Premium Motherboard that I recently
ordered features one 1394a and two 1394b ports.
______________________________
I saw that t.c. electronic was mentioned in an earlier post.
tc applied technologies division (TCAT) now has optimized new versions
of its technology to achieve breakthroughs in cost and
quality of consumer digital audio solutions.
One of which is the 1394B IEC 61883-6 "timing precise" audio streamer.
This technology solves the problem of reconstructing
the audio (and video) samples to the original timing of the source
DICE II is a monolithic CMOS ASIC capable of receiving and transmitting
up to 96 channels of audio data in accordance with the IEEE 1394 standard.
DICE II also functions as a cross bridge switch between any
combination of AES3, ADAT®, TDIF, ADC and DAC ports.
The new DICE II technology simplifies the interface to IEEE 1394
and other popular digital audio formats, while it maximizes
the clocking accuracy of audio samples.
______________________________
With the Aug. '04 announcement of AVID/Digidesign's aquisition of M-Audio
I am looking forward to some new 'interfaces' to surface soon (Winter NAMM/Jan 2005?)
______________________________
I found this comparision of 15 External Hard Drive Enclosures and Adapters
with USB 1.1/2.0, 1394a/b, and SATA interfaces informative.
Ultimatetone
more to this?
Something to think about out:
http://www.studio2f.com/misc/2005/01/12mac_mini_less_is_more.php
Asteriod wasn't releaase yesterday. The lawsuits are still on... Maybe there's much more to Asteriod than just GarageBand. Maybe a killer accessory for the Mini? That would rock (pun intended).
Something to think about out:
http://www.studio2f.com/misc/2005/01/12mac_mini_less_is_more.php
Asteriod wasn't releaase yesterday. The lawsuits are still on... Maybe there's much more to Asteriod than just GarageBand. Maybe a killer accessory for the Mini? That would rock (pun intended).
snoid said:
That article raises some very interesting possiblities. I think it would be totally awesome and would be extremely well-received. I can't wait to see what else Apple has planned.
relimw said:
Ultrabeat is completely unrelated to any future product. It already exists and has already been released.
Ultrabeat is a software plug-in that is included in Logic Pro 7.
Best,
Logicat
Mike Teezie said:
Yes, me too.
Price <$150, this thing would dominate, at least for me.
I want midi i/o, 2-3 channels of audio in, a headphone port that I don't have to stoop down to plug into, and external audio processing to offload processing load from my pitifully weak processor.
Basically, I want this: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/AudiophileUSB-main.html
Plus firewire (less latency, bus powered, much better for audio)
I have no idea when they'll release it, if at all. In a few weeks wouldn't make sense, because it would be better to show it off at Macworld. Of course, there isn't much to show off - it's just a box. I can't imagine them launching it without some sort of event. The only events I can foresee is the iLife/iWork launch a week from this Friday, the Tiger launch, and WWDC.
ThinkSecret says WWDC (though they're not sure), but I can't wait until then, and I see no reason why they would release a consumer, iLife device, at a developer's conference...
People will want to take advantage of the new Garageband capabilities - Apple better capitalize.
So possible dates are:
Friday after this Friday (unlikely, but possible)
With Powerbooks bump in non-event (unlikely but more possible)
Tiger Launch (increasingly plausible)
WWDC (by then it'll be too late)
