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Do you guys think the nVidia chip would be overkill, if the tablet just plays Appstore games?

If they do put the nVidia one in there hopefully some developers will make "tablet" only games! I want someone to push it to it's limits. :cool:

A more important question would be: Why wouldn't there be tablet only games? PC games have different resolutions, sight distances, textures, etc for playing on computers with varying graphics capabilities. While I would never expect that level of customization in an app, I think it is reasonable to expect that an app to detect the device it is running on and scale itself appropriately. In fact there are games that do that with the 3G and the 3GS. I think there might be a couple that don't work with the 3G or earlier at all (if not, there probably will be soon). Then of course there would be apps that work on a tablet form factor, but not an iPhone form factor, those could be tablet only for sure.

PS: Games are not the only thing graphics chips are used for. 1080p output to a tv/minor video editing would be nice.

It should also be noted here that the chips in this article are openCL compliant, so Apple could use them for non video applications as well.
 
It's really crazy how these mobile GPUs are catching up to the desktop scene. Open GL 1 to 2 to 3. Crazy! Direct X 10...isn't that the quality of the xBox 360??
 
Use it on the Tablet with two GPUs embedded. Power demands are incredibly low.

That would be nice. I wish the Apple Tablet literally had double the needed graphics power so irregularly used media can still play on it like Japanese 2040p and U.S. 4K video files. It would also allow GPU capacity to be used during regular tasks like editing the family video using that cool new iPhone compatible slider paradigm for iMovie.

Rocketman
 
Given that nVIDIA have yet to release any hard numbers on the graphic core in Tegra2 it is hard to say whether it is worse or better right now.

They both share two ARM Cortex A9 cores, so I guess we just need some raw numbers for Tegra2 before we can compare them in any meaningful manner (they did say 2 - 3x higher performance than Tegra1 and that they use the same graphic core).

What puts the final nail in the coffin for Tegra2 to be used by Apple is the lack of a cellular modem, which is needed for the iPhone and, most likely, also the tablet they are designing.

More info here.

As for final nail in the coffin, it isn't a nail at all. The interface for the cellular modem is there, nVidia just doesn't want to build it because of the different cellular networks around the world. It's easier to leave it out and let the vendor add their own card instead of nvidia doing custom ordering. It's faster this way and it allows one chipset for everybody.


Do you guys think the nVidia chip would be overkill, if the tablet just plays Appstore games?

If they do put the nVidia one in there hopefully some developers will make "tablet" only games! I want someone to push it to it's limits. :cool:

Umm, there'll be an appstore for the tablet and there will be tablet only games. There were some games that was optimized for 3GS only and they still push them out for both 3g/3gs so that it turns on the optimizations for 3gs only. Same thing can happen here for some games and there'll be exclusive tablet games of course. Devs love to make money and Appstore is making them crapload of money.

It's really crazy how these mobile GPUs are catching up to the desktop scene. Open GL 1 to 2 to 3. Crazy! Direct X 10...isn't that the quality of the xBox 360??

You do realize xbox360 is more than 4 years old now right now? It came out in late 2005. The graphics world move at very fast pace to the point that graphic cards are obsolete every 6-12 months unlike CPU at every 3 years. I'm not really surprised to see mobile chips having better performance than the consoles half a decade ago.

Secondly, the demos were showing a game that was ported, which mean it is probably not optimized for it. Like xbox360 first gen games, it looked like xbox as well, till the second and third generation of games came out, it started to push the graphics to the limit that really look realistic. It's the same issue here, give it two or three years, it'll push xbox360 graphics.

The issue here is the software catching up to the hardware. Look at some of the second gen games on the iPhone (NOVA) and compare it to the first gen game (Brothers in Arms) and you'll see a huge difference.
 
Apple probably would have completely bought-out Imagination Technologies if it weren't for their relationship with Intel. In other words they didn't want to make Intel mad. Hence Intel's investment in the company along with Apple's.
 
A more important question would be: Why wouldn't there be tablet only games? PC games have different resolutions, sight distances, textures, etc for playing on computers with varying graphics capabilities. While I would never expect that level of customization in an app, I think it is reasonable to expect that an app to detect the device it is running on and scale itself appropriately. In fact there are games that do that with the 3G and the 3GS. I think there might be a couple that don't work with the 3G or earlier at all (if not, there probably will be soon). Then of course there would be apps that work on a tablet form factor, but not an iPhone form factor, those could be tablet only for sure.

PS: Games are not the only thing graphics chips are used for. 1080p output to a tv/minor video editing would be nice.

It should also be noted here that the chips in this article are openCL compliant, so Apple could use them for non video applications as well.

More info here.

As for final nail in the coffin, it isn't a nail at all. The interface for the cellular modem is there, nVidia just doesn't want to build it because of the different cellular networks around the world. It's easier to leave it out and let the vendor add their own card instead of nvidia doing custom ordering. It's faster this way and it allows one chipset for everybody.




Umm, there'll be an appstore for the tablet and there will be tablet only games. There were some games that was optimized for 3GS only and they still push them out for both 3g/3gs so that it turns on the optimizations for 3gs only. Same thing can happen here for some games and there'll be exclusive tablet games of course. Devs love to make money and Appstore is making them crapload of money.

Okay, I get it! Thanks for the answers guys! :) I hope some devs come up with some cool games for it!
 
It would also allow GPU capacity to be used during regular tasks like editing the family video using that cool new iPhone compatible slider paradigm for iMovie.

Rocketman

That's what i am talking about. Everybodys been talking about the tablet as a delivery mechanism for content - what about creating content? Seems like a no-brainer that apple will leverage components of ilife suite, in a new multitouch tablet way - paving the way for other tablet app developers to create the next gen of apps - perhaps with 3d goodness.
 
But i dun think there is enough time for Apple to include this newly released techology into either its Tablet (if there is one coming out in Jan or March) or iPhone.

You know, to design a new chip include the POWERVR SGX545 techology and put it into production of the chip itself, then production of the end product, and probably some testing in between, these steps all take time.

If you look into the history of POWERVR SGX535, NEC licensed Imagination's POWERVR SGX 535 core as early as April 2006 and released a product including that core in October 2007. And Apple hv it in iPhone in June of 2009.

So, i think we could only see it in Apple's products as early as 2011

BTW, may be the POWERVR SGX540 is our only hope of graphic upgrade to the iPhone 2010 and Tablet, otherwise it may just stuck at the same POWERVR SGX535 for another year, just like the 1st and 2nd gen of iPhone hv the same chip.

So, dun put to much hope in hving POWERVR SGX545 in 2010
 
But i dun think there is enough time for Apple to include this newly released techology into either its Tablet (if there is one coming out in Jan or March) or iPhone.

You know, to design a new chip include the POWERVR SGX545 techology and put it into production of the chip itself, then production of the end product, and probably some testing in between, these steps all take time.

If you look into the history of POWERVR SGX535, NEC licensed Imagination's POWERVR SGX 535 core as early as April 2006 and released a product including that core in October 2007. And Apple hv it in iPhone in June of 2009.

So, i think we could only see it in Apple's products as early as 2011

BTW, may be the POWERVR SGX540 is our only hope of graphic upgrade to the iPhone 2010 and Tablet, otherwise it may just stuck at the same POWERVR SGX535 for another year, just like the 1st and 2nd gen of iPhone hv the same chip.

So, dun put to much hope in hving POWERVR SGX545 in 2010

It's not a fixed linear plot with a constant multiplier.

When you license the IP from a company with heavy investment you put resources to accelerate it's use.
 
The fact they're highlighting DirectX 10.1 support – which is only relevant for Windows Vista/7 – makes me doubt this has anything to do with Apple. However, Imagination has other graphics cores which could be more suitable for Apple and which are probably faster than Tegra2.
 
Just to put the performance of this chip into perspective.

The older Tegra 650 chips do 47 million polygons/s

Tegra 2 is claimed to double that performance amount, so your looking at 80-90 million polygons/s...

The PowerVR SGX545 on the other hand claims 40 million polygons/s

Based on this, I hope they go with the most powerful chip, which is obviously the Tegra 2.
 
Ati chips are rocking

The Nvidia announcements are always fun... I really get depressed :( when I think how great of a partner Nvidia would have been for Apple despite Arrandale I think the GPU's will be disappointing for the next refresh. Eventhough I'm seriously trying to hype myself up for ATI graphics.... I think the current gen Macs are the best buys..

:apple:

I can't wait for apple to put 5000 level cards in their imac's i for one am using it on windows 7 and games run perfect and smooth, I like what ATI has brought out on these new 5700 cards they have power and are so silent. And if your playing Dirt 2 it looks great on Directx 11.

Now they just need something like Nvidia Physx to get the cool feel of a more real world.
 
Just to put the performance of this chip into perspective.

The older Tegra 650 chips do 47 million polygons/s

Tegra 2 is claimed to double that performance amount, so your looking at 80-90 million polygons/s...

The PowerVR SGX545 on the other hand claims 40 million polygons/s

Based on this, I hope they go with the most powerful chip, which is obviously the Tegra 2.
Peak polygons/s are rarely a meaningful measure of real-world performance. I'd rather look at the fill rate, though that's also a flawed comparison. We'd have to wait for real benchmarks. And SGX545 is not the most powerful core from Imagination that Apple could use. As I wrote before, the fact that they emphasize DirectX 10.1 for SGX545 makes it unlikely this is related to Apple.
 
But i dun think there is enough time for Apple to include this newly released techology into either its Tablet (if there is one coming out in Jan or March) or iPhone.

You know, to design a new chip include the POWERVR SGX545 techology and put it into production of the chip itself, then production of the end product, and probably some testing in between, these steps all take time.

If you look into the history of POWERVR SGX535, NEC licensed Imagination's POWERVR SGX 535 core as early as April 2006 and released a product including that core in October 2007. And Apple hv it in iPhone in June of 2009.

So, i think we could only see it in Apple's products as early as 2011

BTW, may be the POWERVR SGX540 is our only hope of graphic upgrade to the iPhone 2010 and Tablet, otherwise it may just stuck at the same POWERVR SGX535 for another year, just like the 1st and 2nd gen of iPhone hv the same chip.

So, dun put to much hope in hving POWERVR SGX545 in 2010

I'm pretty sure they have been testing for a while, they wouldn't announce if they weren't ready to push it out within the next six months. Many companies do test much earlier in the stage than you think.
 
I can't wait for apple to put 5000 level cards in their imac's i for one am using it on windows 7 and games run perfect and smooth, I like what ATI has brought out on these new 5700 cards they have power and are so silent. And if your playing Dirt 2 it looks great on Directx 11.

Now they just need something like Nvidia Physx to get the cool feel of a more real world.

Anything below the 5000 will be a disappointment.

Nvidia has a better Developer platform also, thats why Im biased but despite my one sided view, Nvidia will always be the better alternative... I'm saving for the QUADRO 4800 FX!!:D
 
Unless I'm mistaken but this news is ONLY about the POWERVR SGX545, not an ARM Cortex A9 platform using the POWERVR SGX545 from Imagination Technology's right?!

Apple will still need a brain to use this POWERVR SGX545 with it, which begs to ponder who will allow it and how much more will it cost Apple to mate it with say a Samsung Cortex A9, Freescale (they don't have an A9 yet, let alone an A8), Texas Instruments would be willing I'm sure, and a few other smaller players.
 
Just to put the performance of this chip into perspective.

The older Tegra 650 chips do 47 million polygons/s

Tegra 2 is claimed to double that performance amount, so your looking at 80-90 million polygons/s...

The PowerVR SGX545 on the other hand claims 40 million polygons/s

Based on this, I hope they go with the most powerful chip, which is obviously the Tegra 2.

The missing factor is polygons per sec per milliWatt. Portable devices (such as the iPhone), often underclock the CPU and GFX so that they can meet the power envelope for decent battery life specs as well as not overheating. The Tegra 2 might well be slower that an SOC containing an SGX5xx core once configured for the same size heat sink or for the same battery life from the same weight battery.
 
It's not a fixed linear plot with a constant multiplier.

When you license the IP from a company with heavy investment you put resources to accelerate it's use.

Not only that but ...

i. Bought P.A. Semi for $150-200M and flushed their existing product (i.e., freed up a whole company's design team to work on 'something' ) . What they are working on will bring no return on that investment until something new ships. So it is the P.A. Semi plus Imagination Tech investments combined that measure how much they are piled onto this area. Given Apple has 10's of billions lying around they can take time to do it right. However, clock is ticking.

Unless the working chip that ImgTech realized for their example 545 is a very club stubbed out version of the Apple/P.A.Semi driven design (e.g, same ARM core they were using but limited whatever else throwing on the chip.), it will probably be a while. However, doesn't mean couldn't have wedded some

ii. At some point Apple needs to who their foundry partner is. Kind of hard to see how can have cone of silence for extended period of time and be gearing up production length runs. Anyone care to point out any Apple is going to use "xxxx" company for foundary services rumors? (I may have missed these).

iii. wouldn't be surprising if Apple's first effort at a home grown design gets smoked by the Tegra2 . The Tegra2 is just that "version 2". Most likely same time given more time to work on something better. Not that P.A. Semi folks were not world class but it will be their first effort back on ARM with perhaps slightly different design constraints than handed before. Depending upon just how modular/opaque the CPU interface is on the PowerVR SGX5 designs may have had to go quite conservative on the first stab at a merged SoC product. If they felt very comfortable with the base ARM 9 baseline that ARM distributes and the PowerVR stuff plugged in smoothly then perhaps a bit more aggressive.

http://www.imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsID=497
" will begin shipping fully verified production quality IP for its POWERVR SGX543MP multiprocessor graphics cores to partners before the end of December 2009. Multiple lead partners have already been working with beta versions of the core for several months and several SoCs for a range of markets incorporating SGX MP cores are already in advanced design. .."

This highlights that ImgTech doesn't do these in a vacuum. Apparently when they release it may have already been in some other design builds. That is a bit away from glitch free final product though.
 
ii. At some point Apple needs to who their foundry partner is. Kind of hard to see how can have cone of silence for extended period of time and be gearing up production length runs. Anyone care to point out any Apple is going to use "xxxx" company for foundary services rumors? (I may have missed these).

Doesn't Intel do ARM foundry runs for folks? Wouldn't Apple benefit from a three-way (PA semi, Intel, Imagination) conglomeration of key technologies? It may be weird but given they control the software environment too, it could work. Apple is not shooting for interoperability with other vendors here. They are shooting for "insanely great".

Rocketman

May I run a MacLC, or a G4 Ti or Cube, as an instance on it please? :D It only requires "two gestures".
 
Doesn't Intel do ARM foundry runs for folks?

Intel does foundry work for nobody (but themselves).

Intel sold off their ARM business to Marvell several years ago. They decided that x86 was going to attack the ARM business. At high power embedded end they have been somewhat successful (many netbooks), but still getting their butt kicked when performance/milliwatt counts most.


IBM, Samsung , and TSMC are much more likely candidates. (maybe AMD's spin off)
[ARM's list of foundary partners http://www.arm.com/community/company_list/rw/ProductTypes/3/ ]

Apple has gotten stuff they where they weren't primarily design lead from IBM and Samsung before. IBM makes a bit more sense since they aren't a direct phone/mobile device vendor and typically have their stuff together rolling out new processes. TSMC would be a shorter supply chain (and align with Apple's penchant for putting as much manufacturing as possible out of the USA. )



Wouldn't Apple benefit from a three-way (PA semi, Intel, Imagination) conglomeration of key technologies?

No. Because it advances ARM ( not x86) so Intel is not interested.

Intel's embedded graphics gets whipped on a regular basis (by Tegra2 all the more so ). That's why they have invested in ImagTech. If can't do it themselves just buy it off the shelf. LOL.



It may be weird but given they control the software environment too, it could work.

It could work, but I could be about to go on lunch date with Halle Berry too.
Not particularly likely though.


Apple is not shooting for interoperability with other vendors here. They are shooting for "insanely great".

What? To a large extent yes they are. That's why they are buying shared IP (from ARM and from ImagTech). This way a significant fraction of the R&D costs are distributed over a larger number of devices than just what Apple makes. The differentiation will be which common components Apple combines onto the SoC package and which leaves off on other places on the circuit board(s). Apple's bundling may be a bit different and they may be able to drop certain bundles onto the market before others get there (perhaps a more expensive chip that will work better in a more expensive device with larger margins) but what is being merged is largely going to be off-the-shelf.

I'd be shocked if Apple pushes the envelope in terms of some radically "insanely great" better silicon tech. Much more likely that they are just going to take more of the profits by going more vertical on the design ( don't have to pay Samsung for design work) and have more flexibility to work on their own schedule for more wholistic system design ( drop new silicon about when new device is going to ship).
 
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