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Originally posted by GeeYouEye
I'm still cautious on this one. I personally find AAC to have very few advantages over MP3. You only reduce file size by 30%, and lose some quality in the process.

Really? Seems the opposite of my experience, getting 40-50% smaller files with equal or better fidelity with the original. AAC employs a much better psychoaccoustic model than MP3, which is how it gets better results with fewer bits.

Now if Apple could come up with a lossless codec to use instead. And I know I don't like the part about not being able to put downloaded music on more than one computer... in order to prevent putting a backup on an external HD and then hooking that up to another computer, it'll have to be tied to the HD and iPod. Which means, unless you have an iPod, you can't back up the music at all, meaning that the next virus, magnet, or sudo rm / -r turns your music into so much wasted cash. I do like the idea of free songs, or discounts, to .Mac members though.

AAC (and WMP, for that matter) DRM does not keep you from copying files. It keeps you from using files branded to one computer on another computer. Usually (but not always), you can "back up" your computer's identifying key as well as the files themselves, in which case when you buy a new computer you can move all your files and your ID key over to the new computer and everyone's happy. Of course, this isn't perfect DRM (there is no such thing!), as there's nothing keeping you from just putting the same ID key on multiple computers, but it makes "casual copying" less convenient, which is about all DRM can really hope for in the first place.

Personally, I don't think the music companies should be too worried about people burning their songs to CD, etc. Yes, one can then rip the CD back out to high-bitrate MP3s, but you definitely lose quality with each burn/rip decode/encode cycle. IMHO, the CD is a convenient format, but not necessarily my archive format. I'd love to be getting better-than-CD audio via download, archiving these tunes in digital form, and burning to CD-quality for use in my car.
 
Re: AAC is high quality

Originally posted by greenstork
To debunk some of the rumors in this thread. AAC takes up less space, between 30-50% less than mp3 depending on the bit rate. It is also much better sound quality than mp3, often indistinguishable from CD quality.

Ummm, that's wrong. Bit rate is bit rate and takes the same amount of space in either format. The AAC promoters will tell you that AAC sounds better than MP3 at the same bit rate (128 vs 128), and sounds the same at a lower bit rate (96 vs 128). The hitch is that once you get up towards CD-quality (I'll say that means 192 kbps or better) the differences between the various formats start to disappear. At that point there are plenty of bits to play with, just differences in the accuracy of the encoder. I believe it is >very< hard to tell the difference between MP3, AAC, and WMA at >200kbps.
 
Originally posted by adzoox
If you can honestly sit 10 people in a room and ask them to listen to music Mp3 128-192k encoded and a CD ; then ask which is better or which is the Mp3 - and get them to tell the difference every time or even 2 times out of 10 then ..... well, you know, I'll give you an imaginary $100 or something.

Hmmm. Well, I don't have very demanding ears (in know many others who are far more critical of subtle defects than I), but I can certainly tell the difference between a 128kbps and a 160kbps MP3 file for most popular music, and between 160kbps and the CD most of the time. 192k, and I can't distinguish it from the original CD in any case I've tried.

So, one more like me, and then eight others and we'll split your hypothetical $100!
 
Originally posted by Bateman
A fuss was given when the VCR and tape recorder were released...

Have you ever taped something off the radio or a CD onto a tape? That too is stealing, but only in the sense that somebody says it is. Music has existed longer than the human race, humans just channel it, and i don't think that a force like that can be stolen. Anyhow, half the stuff that is being stolen i don't even consider music, just pop-abominations (scoff...scoff....)


Listen, if an artist creates something and then you get your own copy for free, that's technically stealing. Humans don't channel music - they create it from scratch. It's just that this isn't a huge deal -- kinda like the difference between taking some pens from work and carjacking the boss' car!

I can only imagine the outrage if a struggling painter painted a masterpiece that the world only discovered when an evil lithographer stole the painting and made 100,000 copies. That's stealing!!! It would be a great Dateline NBC special, for sure.

However, the lamest defense of music file sharing is the right one -- we've been doing it for over 20 years now! Ever heard of "squatters rights?" If you erect a new fence in your backyard and accidentally place it one foot over the property line, into your neighbor's yard, after a certain amount of years, the property legally becomes yours. You technically stole his land! But squatters rights prevail. This same hair-brained argument can be made to defend music downloaders.
 
Originally posted by KLFloyd

I'd like to see something with either a $10 a month or less for unlimited downloads or maybe in the range of $0.75 per song. But as for .Mac, I'd like to see the .Mac subscribers get a little "bonus" for their subscription. Let's face it, I'm paying $99 a year for my email address and to support the company I?ve love. I and many other .mac subscribers, and have no real use for the other services .mac offers. homepage.mac.com/username isn't exactly a great URL for your web site and iDisk service is spotty at best. I use iCards maybe twice a year and have better anti-virus software. If Apple were to kick in 10 free downloads a month for .mac users I?d keep my subscription active.

First: "Unlimited downloads" is a really, really bad idea. "All you can eat" plans work when there is a realistic limit for how much even the most determined consumer can eat. With unlimited downloads, say bought on a computer hooked up to a nice fat T3 to the backbone, how long do you think a determined user would take to download every known song, current and back catalogues? I would expect "volume" deals (and would love "album" deals with extras), but not an unmetered option at all.

Second: Giving away $10/month to .Mac users who are paying less ($100/12 months) than that for the .Mac service ... seems a bit overzealous for a service that is as new and not amazingly profitable as .mac is. Maybe $2-3 worth per month would fly, but I don't expect $10 would. Remember that Apple will likely be paying the music companies a set amount per downloaded song, and so Apple cant just give the songs away without losing massive amounts of money.
 
I'd like a new App from Apple-whatever it does. And about the AAC and the bit rate and all.....I don't think most everyday generic Mac users (to whom this is geared to I believe) even care how it's compressed or encoded. They just want it to sound good.

P.S. Not to say that people who like high quality sounding songs aren't everyday people, but, you know, like..... you know. :D
 
AM I missing the point?

I have read a lot of replies in this forum and, with all due respect for all the mac community, I don't know if the discussion is really "what is the best sound quality"...

If Apple makes the move then the important point for us is : is it the right move? What are the tools that are going to support this move? Where is Apple going and what are they targeting...

I think that this is a logical move BUT is it what the market is expecting in the long term?

Positioning, positioning, positioning!

Michel
 
Re: indies will love it

Originally posted by sweetaction
how amazing would this be for indie labels? virtual international distro without having to deal with all the hassles. find your hard markets before you send out solid goods.

i hope that labels can opt in to this service. that would be amazing. how great would it to be able to find rare obscure and maybe even high quality live songs from your favorite bands?

the major labels are going the way of the dinosaur.

bring back the art, kill the industry

I wholeheartedly agree. I find buying CDs to be a major pain when you deal with indie lables. Sure it's fine if you live in a big city and you know of a specialist shop somewhere.

And finding music online (via Kazaa or whatever) that's not top-40 is also a huge pain. Especially on the Mac; I find the p2p clients for Macs to be inferior, unuseable in many cases.

It would be great if there was some sort of clearing house for indie music, not unlike eBay. The site or service would simply be an interface, charging a small commission, where any artist can sell their music directly to the consumer, and the artist can set their own price for the music. No distribution network would be necessary. This clearing house could work in conjunction with a group of internet radio stations. You hear a song on iTunes that you like, you click on the Artist button, and you're taken straight to the clearing house where you can hear more samples or buy the song directly. It could be one of the freest form of intellectual property transfer...
 
Originally posted by jettredmont
AAC employs a much better psychoaccoustic model than MP3, which is how it gets better results with fewer bits.
The complaint I see raised against AAC over and over is that the psychoacoustic model hasn't been tuned very well yet. The Nero implementation is getting good reviews though, as is PsyTEL.
 
Re: Re: AAC is high quality

Originally posted by wdodd
Ummm, that's wrong. Bit rate is bit rate and takes the same amount of space in either format. The AAC promoters will tell you that AAC sounds better than MP3 at the same bit rate (128 vs 128)

When I said that AAC takes up 30-50% less room depending on the bit rate I was saying that a normal mp3 is encoded at 128-192 but MPEG 4 is "noramally" encoded at 96. This 96 bits/sec is higher audio quality than mp3 at 192. Hence 50% less space for the same or higher quality. I understand that one bit equals one bit, this seems fundamental and basic.
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
The example may fall flat, but the analogy remains the same. Any label, independent or not, works on the premise that they'll have enough income generating bands to off-set the loss generated by bands that are not profitable. The only examples I think of that wouldn't fit this mold are big artists (or other independtly wealthy people) that start their own (usually small) small, private labels and don't neccisarily<sp?> need or expect the bands on their label to turn a profit.

Many of the "big" independent label's aren't really independent. They are just the "independent arm" of a major label (or in some other way affiliated w/a major).


Lethal


Okay. So, Britney Spears sells $5 fudzillion in a day. The record company chooses to take these profits and:

1) Manufacture a Britney Spears look/sound/dance-alike to generate maybe only $4 fudzillion in a day (law of diminishing returns).

-or-

2) For the good of humanity and their altruistic karma, support a small band that makes $500 per year and might one day (after 100 more BS records) be up to $1 fudzillion in a year.

Yeah, I'm sure (2) gets picked a lot!

No, record companies do use mega-profits off their top-tier bands to support taking a "chance" on developing new bands/artists, so long as those new bands/artists look like they have a reasonable chance of making mega-sales themselves in a few years. However, the idea that profits for one type of music makes it more likely that a less popular type of music will be supported is just plain backwards.
 
Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Actually that's impossible. AAC at 128 bits per second is the same date rate as MP3. What they're saying is an AAC@ 96bps should sound equivalent to 128-192 MP3.

They have been less than honest about this IMO. First I want to "hear" the proof. I've heard alot of woofing about AAC but no ones using it.

Well, not really. AAC preserves the highs and lows of music where MP3 basically just cuts them off (seems there was a pretty graph of this around somewhere a few months back, comparing AAC, MP3, MP3Pro, and WMP ... maybe on tomshardware.com ...). Thus, while an AAC at 96kbps may well sound a lot like an MP3 at 160kbps across most of the accoustic range, in the "high" end it still beats MP3 hand over fist as MP3 has very little in the high range until you get into much higher bitrates. How well a codec represents a source at a specific setting is not just a single number; it is a set of numbers.

While at "30-50% smaller" (lower bitrates) the AAC matches MP3 accoustic quality for the most part across the board, it still greatly exceeds MP3 quality in the extremities of the range. Thus, AAC encoded files can be made 30-50% smaller than MP3s (assuming both were encoded from the same source) and still sound "better".
 
Re: Re: Yes you are

Originally posted by Qball
All of your points are correct. I concede.

However, to borrow from one of your examples, I would say that I would never frequent a restuarant that I felt was ripping me off (too expensive, lame portions, portions that are too large, whatever).

Then don't buy music from the RIAA. Buy independants' music, assuming that more fits your value system, or don't buy music at all!


But if a friend had leftovers from the restaurant, I'd eat them!

Which is why this is a poor analogy. Food can only (normally ...) be eaten by one person. If it were somehow possible for your friend to go to this expensive restaurant, order a meal, eat the meal, then also allow everyone else standing in line to the restaurant to eat that meal, you'd have an equivalent analogy.

If your "friend" (however loosely you define that) is giving you his CD "leftovers" and physically removes them from his own possession, that is one thing (after-market sale). If he is keeping his "leftovers" then the analogy has failed.


When CD's first came out, the record companies said that costs would be high at first, just like CD players were, but that the costs would eventually fall in line with LP's and cassettes. Never happened, they lied.

Well, they didn't "lie". CDs definitely got cheaper, for them. They just got used to the profits and conveniently forgot to lower their prices fr the rest of us :) Which is why, if you hurry, you can get a whole $25 back from the RIAA over a price-fixing class action suit ...

If you ask the RIAA why CDs are so expensive, they'll say that while the per-unit costs are much lower, the overhead costs have skyrocketed. Studio rentals, editors, and promotions all cost money. Granted, it is the record company paying itself rent on a studio it owns and contracting from itself the editor who gets paid a salary, but these are called "costs" nonetheless.

But, in the end, it is your fault (and mine), not theirs, that CDs still cost as much as they do. In any market with inflexible demand, prices will rise to the limit of what the market will bear (ie, where the demand suddenly becomes "flexible"). If CDs were really too expensive, we wouldn't have been buying them these last 20 years.

On the other hand, today there are thousands of musicians out there peddling their wares for just a little over the cost of CD duplication. If you want low-cost music, that's your best bet.


And, in the past, we used double-cassette recorders with nary a stink -- you could borrow a friend's tape and make a copy. No moral "stealing" argument from the RIAA. But now that technology has greased the wheels, oh NOW we have a problem.

No "stink" was raised not because it was legal (don't call it "fair use" ... "fair use" doesn't cover duplication and distribution), but because the copies made in that manner were of low enough quality that the number of generations were limited, and thus the overall impact of copying was limited. With MP3s, copying (not encoding/decoding, file copying) is lossless, and thus the number of potential generations is limitted by the number of interested parties ... a single purchase could easily spread out such that everyone on the planet has a second-generation-quality copy.

Given that the previous situation was tolerated for technical reasons only, it is natural that technical progress would eventually make the situation no longer tolerable.
 
Re: Re: Re: AAC is high quality

Originally posted by greenstork
This 96 bits/sec [AAC] is higher audio quality than mp3 at 192.
Bold statement. I feel more comfortable that AAC is equal to MP3 at 30% lower bit-rates. AAC is pretty transparent to me at ~180kbps while MP3 is equally transparent at ~220kbps or so.

But it all still depends on the specific encoder and the specific music. Some listening tests have put AAC dead last on certain samples. Others show it near the top. When we have a better tuned AAC encoder, I'll be happy to jump on the wagon with you.
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
With the exception of rare albums or imports I don't pay more that $15 (pre-tax) for a CD so if you are paying $17-$20 you're shopping at the wrong store(s).





If record companies were no longer needed they wouldn't exist. Studio time, touring, advertising, and videos all cost money. And yes bands can shoe-string it and get by but if you want to "go national" that takes a lot more $$$ than most unsigned or indie label bands can afford. Record companies give bands money for all those things up front and hope that the band will be able to generate enough to pay them back. Record companies are like movie studio's in that the majority of their ventures fail to generate a profit or break even. Even though I hate mindless summer blockbuster films I realize that w/o them raking in the dough many quality indie flix probably wouldn't get released nationally in the US. Same thing goes for music. I'm not a fan of Ms. Spears or N'Sync but hopefully w/the money they generate the labels will sign a talented but less mainstream band that I might like.

The fundamental purprose for record companies and movie studio's is needed, but like most everything else envolving humans creed and corruption have f((ked it up...




Lethal


My point with saying that they are no longer needed is because the technology has bottomed out in price, for less than 5K total you can have a nice recording studio. Granted that is a lot of money. Really all one needs to make music anymore is a nice mac and some software, and some microphones and a PA system of sorts (older ones that work just fine are pretty cheap). The touring is the only time the artists actually make money, they make very little on cd sales. The recording companies business model hasn't evolved with technology and now have less to offer. To the recording companies, it is about money, and that is all (have you seen teen idol?) Musicians are in it usually because they love music, some are foolish and want to huge stars, but you have a better chance of winning the lottery ....5 times. and yes, B spears, 98 degrees, and the new kids on the block are all foolish :) It is just a shame that the recording cartel wont just go away, we would all be better off. Think about it, and you will see the disservice they actually do to the consumer.
 
[Obligatory obfuscated Disclaimer: IANAL, NDIWTB]

Originally posted by Bateman
A fuss was given when the VCR and tape recorder were released...

Have you ever taped something off the radio or a CD onto a tape? That too is stealing, but only in the sense that somebody says it is.

Well, it depends on how you use it. If you are "time-shifting" or (to a less-legally-defined sense) "format-shifting", you are within your "fair use" rights. However, if you are copying the program and giving a copy to someone else, you have violated the record company's copyright.

Again, as before, the record companies don't make a big deal about this because technologoically it can not cause them too much damage.

Music has existed longer than the human race, humans just channel it, and i don't think that a force like that can be stolen.


yeah, and so have stories and incisive commentary ... seems like I should be able to "republish" Stephen King's latest to give to all my "friends"!

Copyright law is well-established in this country; it is even in the constitution. If you don't like the law, then seek to have it changed, or find a society that believes in your "free love^H^H^H^Hmusic" ideals.


Anyhow, half the stuff that is being stolen i don't even consider music, just pop-abominations (scoff...scoff....)

Okay, so either you listen to that crap anyways (in which case you're an elitist hypocrite), or you copy the "other half" of music (and thus this comment is meaningless; more important is the fact that half of the music that is being "stolen" you do consider music), or you don't "share" music at all (in which case one would have to wonder why you are arguing this in the first place).

"I snuck into four movies today."

"That's stealing!"

"No it isn't! The other three movies at the theater were crap!"

Yeah, whatever.


Legal issues on this topic will forever be debated.

Legally, there is really very little dispute. The debate comes from those that wish to change the laws and/or who feel that certain parties have violated the "public trust".
 
Originally posted by Qball
Listen, if an artist creates something and then you get your own copy for free, that's technically stealing.

Just to be difficult, it's actually technically copyright violation, not stealing.
 
Whatever happened to musicians as performers and not studio sunken businesses. I absolutely hate the idea of paying for music. I firmly believe that we are beginning to be believe everything the record companies tell us. If musicians want to make music make it by putting on performances. And use the radio, internet, and CD's as a way to promote yourself as a musician not relying upon some piece of plactic or digital stream. Many people have not lost sight of that ideal. We have'nt forgot in New Orleans. And copy protection on the songs? You've got to be joking. I hope this pans out for apple just because of access and convenience. But I truly believe it is a terrible idea and makes me wonder all the more about where the rights of digital media are going. There's got to be other ways for artists to support themselves than to sell their souls to record companies. It will be a sad state when I have to start keying in pins to hear music. Absolutely absurd.
 
I would have to agree with snahabed, Codemonkey, vanillamike, and swdrumcp.

$1 per song is way over-priced. This is the only problem I see with the service.

Most albums I own (just scanning over them now) have 12-18 songs on them. Some even have as many as 25 (some have tracks nnot listed on the back of the cd that would bring the total number of tracks even higher).

I also have a large number of classical and punk albums that I bought brand new for $2-$8.

I haven't bought a new CD in about 5 years (I only buy used now — as do most people I know). But most albums in the US cost $15 - $22 (I can remember just a few years back when this number was more like $12-$17). This is all before tax but since Apple's service will probably be taxed It doesn't make much difference.

When I used to buy new albums I would shop at tower records or vinyl fetish. At both places I could find rare CDs, singles, and imports. So if I only wanted one song I would pay less. People who buy the whole album for one or two songs are an anomaly to me. Buy the single! But most artists I enjoy put out complete albums (i mean I like the whole darn thing).

So I do not understand why anyone would pay $12-$14 for a download album that would be encoded, have DMR, no cover art, cost more money to burn, can be lost form the computer easily, be lower quality, etc. When for a couple more bucks you can get the same music without the limitation and with the extras (and with a cd that has a much longer projected lifespan) brand new. Or you can buy used or discounted music for half that price and again don't get any of the limitations.

So even if we completely ignore the fact that you can get the same exact service by downloading acquisition or xnap this system is way over priced unless they change the pricing scheme.

$1 per song with the ability to redownload the song whenever you like for free. plus album cover, lyrics, etc. would be good for single downlaods.

$.50 per song for full album downloads with cover art and lyrics would be reasonable for full albums. again assuming you can redownload for free as long as the service is still runnning. this would mean you you pay about $6 for the average sized full album. Considering you would have to pay anough buck or two for burning and printing if you want the enarest equivalent to a store bought CD i thin that is reasinable pricing (you still lose quality and longevity of your music.)

but if there are no extras and no option to downlaod again for free then then even the pricing i describe wouldn't be worth it. if we take the service at face value (ie the pricing is as described in the article) then i cant imagine paying much more than $.30 per song. It is just too easy to go out and buy a actual CD that gives me everything I want with no sacrifices for a fraction of the cost this service offers.
 
Originally posted by jettredmont
[Obligatory obfuscated Disclaimer: IANAL, NDIWTB]
Legally, there is really very little dispute. The debate comes from those that wish to change the laws and/or who feel that certain parties have violated the "public trust".

agreed. legally the matter is quite simple. copyright violation. cut and dry.

but you and others here make a critical error imho. you forget morality and legaility are not one and the same.

it is illegal to download music. i would argue that it is not immoral to download music. i would argue that people are fundamentally good and moral. and the simple fact that so many people download shoudl demonstrate that there is a conflict between the what is and what should be in the law.

i personally never follow the law. i follow my own morality. most often the two do not conflict. sometimes my standards are different than the laws standards.

i will not blindly follow a set of laws simply because they are the law. i actually think about what i feel is right and wrong and act accordingly.

if i was drafted into the war against iraq. i would not go. my actions would be illegal. but i would feel that i was acting in a moral manner.

be careful when framing your argument that you do not confuse legality and morality.
 
I would gladly use this service but I don't think Apple will let me.

The problem is my address. I don't live in America or Canada. I live in New Zealand, and because of this simple fact I have been barred from many of the .Mac benifits that those in North America can enjoy.

I couldn't claim the free photo printing that originally convinced me to sign up for .Mac, I couldn't get any of the vouchers that they offered to many European countries as a replacement for the "free photo" deal, I couldn't enter the .Mac creativity contest and I can't even pay for the iPhoto printing service.

I don't expect Apple will include other countries in this new music service, but I do expect them to charge the rest of us the same amount anyway.
 
Re: Audio Quality ..

Originally posted by adzoox
I have done it, and no one, even if side by side could tell. ANY audiophile can tell there are some highs and lows missing, but the average person can't and the average person doesn't care.

You also have to take into account that the better the system the better the MP3 sounds too.


I've done it, and it was excessively easy to tell
 
Haven't read everything here thoroughly, so excuse me if I am redundant.

--The Apple Records lawsuit is something which was settled, but I thought it was renegotiated somehow. I might be wrong but when the iPod was released I thought there was some finaggalling with McCartney and company to make sure toes weren't being stepped on.... too lazy to Google it....

-- This is good for Apple because how much could it cost to implement something like this? To maintain it? Unlike services which only offer music for money, Apple has an infrastructure in place that can accomadate it and which they make money from. So, sort of like Roxio re-issuing Napster, Apple will still make money from other related products regardless of a slow adoption rate or the relatively limited market they are pursuing, just Macs user/iPod owners vs. everyone under the sun.

--If Jobs is convince piracy (and where is the ol' Jolly Roger Flag these days) is more of a behavioral thing that technological thing then the notion may very well be that Mac users disporportionately "share" less music in comparison to PC users. Also, many Mac users are creatives who just won't steal and are more likely to buy. Those two things probably sound pretty good to record companies. Given most PC users are the bulk of digital piracy...well, once again, PC-only users make us Mac folk look reeeaal good.

--DRM: there has to be some portabilitity beyond just an iPod, but, if hooks are in place, like FWire connectivity and being able to use the iPod with various other devices like stereos of various types, then why burn it? That may be a naive reading of what Apple and the record companies are thinking but it might be the case. Sure the articles keep saying that you will be able to burn it to CD but there might be a notion that burning it to CD is more appealing than sharing it with Kaaza users. it is certainly a gamble.
Bottom line on that: mebbe Steve made some of his special KoolAid for record execs--whose parent companies are hurting, btw. This isn't exactly like the investment on any parties part is that great.

--the MP3 quality vs. AAC...i'm weak on this, but i thought MP3 does a high pass filter thing and cuts off highs and lows to acheive a steady bitrate. So, there is a noticable loss given the compression level. You'd think it would be noticable to true audiofiles, with multi-thousand dollar listening devices. To be able to buy uncompressed AAC--if such a thing is possible--might be just right and might fit in with 40 gig harddrives for the iPod vs. all that noise about the next iPod being a Watchman redux.
--will this work? who knows. extra bells and whistles need to be added and as a vertical integration strategy Apple does stand to gain, as do Mac users. For me, I would just like to be able to get in on the value added content making opps of enhancing the songs...making animations for promo vids or visualizations specifically made for specific songs.
 
Originally posted by MacFan25
A monthly fee that offers unlimited songs that you could download would be great.

Perhaps they could have multiple plans, because I buy music sparatically, and I dont want to pay 15 bucks some month that i download 2 songs.

Also, what about the smart ppl that will sign up for one month, download every song possible (I can dl at 900 kb/sec), and then not purchase another month until a year or so later (except for the hits of course).
 
Ambitious...I was wondering if you'd pop up into this discussion. Remember when we went round and round on this issue a while back? ;-)

I say you're wrong. Downloading music off P2P networks is immoral...the "everybody is doing it" argument is lame. :rolleyes:

Is not...

Is too...

Is not..

Is too...

Maybe we should just link to our prior debate?
 
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