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While it's nice to tout how big a company's Market Cap is, in the finance world that's rarely looked at as the "value of the company". The difference:

Market Cap (commonly known as "Equity Value") -- takes into account only the value of the company's equity, not the overall value of the company were you to attempt to go out and buy it.

Enterprise Value (EV) -- is a measure of the complete value of a company, thought of as "What would you have to pay to buy the whole company?" The (simplified) difference between the two is EV = Market Cap + Total Debt - Excess Cash.

The difference can therefore be quite significant, such as in Apple's case with their huge cash reserve. So when you try to "value" them and a company like Exxon... you get wildly different valuations (using yahoo):

Apple (AAPL)
Market Cap: $347B
Enterprise Value: $299B

Exxon (XOM)
Market Cap: $353B
Enterprise Value: $348B​

Which shows that while Apple is certainly growing like a weed -- and an enormous company -- it still has quite a way to go to have a higher valuation than the likes of Exxon.

Interesting to note the world's most valuable company GE is still huge by comparison. General Electric: $545B

GE has 479 billion dollars in debt, that is what is mind boggling... They are one of the largest non government debtors, but other then that it does not say much of anything.

They Enterprise Value number is a folly. By itself it is even more worthless then market cap for comparing publicly trade companies. Exxon and Apple are both worth much more to their owners then GE. In fact every GE stockholder is essentially in debt...
 
No, but it is an indication of a much more serious problem, i.e. the axing of the XServe, the infrequent Mac Pro upgrades, the lack of investment in the Macintosh, the infrequent Mac OS upgrades, the axing of Shake, the pathetic re-write of FinalCutPro, the iMovie08 debacle, the increased demand that people should always be consuming, buying and that from Apple, e.g. through the iTunes thingy or App store, whether on an iPod or a Mac, the pathetic state of the Finder (more or less unusable after a decade) and instead trying to "fix" the OS by adding more and more app launchers (e.g. the Dock, Spotlight, Launchpad), the over-emphasis on the iCloud which excites just about no one, thinking that iOS is a "paradigm shift", and much much more.

There is a litany of errors, misjudgments, faults and mismanagement that has plagued Apple the last decade, but has been handily masked by immense growth and profit.

The lack of Blu-ray support, is a mere indication, that the company that was once on the cutting edge of tech, is there no more.

And I fart in the general direction of your sycophantic claim that BD is "obsolete removable media technology", since it is the de facto standard way of watching and distributing video, already much more popular than DVD was at the same time of it's lifetime, and a magnitude or two more popular than all downloaded content (iTunes included).

Macs used to be good for making things, and now one has to recommend Windows. Great job there Apple. :rolleyes:

You make some reasonable arguments about some of the stagnation of Apple desktop hardware and the frustration of Finder. I wouldn't call it unusable, but it certainly has its faults.

As for Blu-Ray... I don't own a player and don't foresee ever owning one; only if DVD goes away. Some interesting links:
http://www.deadline.com/2011/06/rep...short-of-expectations-even-as-prices-decline/
http://www.pvcmuseum.com/electronics/dvd-player-sales-took-a-decade-to-surpass-vhs.htm
http://www.freshdv.com/2006/12/dvd-player-finally-surpasses-vcr.html
Generally, it seems that Blu-Ray is catching on much less quickly than DVD did against VHS. There's just not enough of a distinction, especially when DVDs can be so affordable and there are digital options which are at least as good as DVD if not quite as good as Blu-Ray.

Anywho, keep the good thinking coming.
Cheers.
 
Go ahead, tell me in what world it is that not hiring people, not paying dividends and pocketing large amounts of cash is good. Seriously. I'd like to know when those things are good for the economy, for the company in the long run, and for society.

If you can't do it, I'd say, well, its pretty immoral since there's no defense on anything that you'd consider a good thing-as there is a case to be made about bad effects from this behavior.

You're contradicting yourself. On one hand you say holding cash in this economy is good, on the other you say holding cash is bad.

And how is not hiring right now immoral? Why should a company hire more employees if they don't have a need to? What makes people entitled to jobs? Hint: nothing. You're entitled to freedom, but not a job.

You have a right to express your opinion, but that doesn't mean I can't call you out on it.
 
And this is what's killing the Western world right now. We're moving all of our jobs to other countries so shareholders will benefit more and more. Meanwhile, the gap between the rich and poor widens and widens. Until no one's even able to afford the products we're producing offshore anymore because we're all out of a job.

No - what is killing the "western world" right now are lazy / beauracratic / entitled / societies focused on esoteric moralities and booty / bling / hooters / free ride on the government.

Why would I assemble a computer in America at a loaded labor cost of $60 an hour when others in the world will do as good or better job for $6 an hour. They are hungry for the work and will have an improving quality of life compared to where they have been.

The western world societies need to get off their asses and start hustling or they will fall further and further behind.
 
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It would certainly be nice if America were once again the only infrastructure standing as in the 1950's when high school C students could get union jobs paying a lifetime of wages that could buy a decent house and send kids to college, but those days are gone, and it wasn't Apple who made manufacturing in America virtually extinct. There is nothing immoral about Apple focusing only on maximizing long-term profits within the bounds set by applicable law and regulations, and by doing so Apple, directly and indirectly, generates enormous economic activity and contributes to the economic fortunes of a great number of Americans who are and who are not Apple employees.

Our economy and our country have plenty of problems, but I don't think that having too many companies like Apple contributes to them, and I don't think companies that act like Apple does are evil--they are obeying the rules of the free enterprise system that served America very well for many years. Now if we can just come up with a tax policy that maximizes the contribution by rich and profitable companies to the well-being of our society without driving them into the arms of some other country, we'll all be happy.

So you'd rather champion mediocrity?

Tax the rich until they are like every one else...unable to provide others a living?

Two great quotes:

'when was the last time a poor person gave you a job' and "The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money", Margaret Thatcher.

The concept of wealth redistribution is an evil one. Too many think this is still the 20's when large livings were made off the backs of others.

The concept destroys value, and without value then a person is nothing. Value does not come from how much money they make but the contribution they make, which is proportional to their living.

If we're all the same, and all due the same, then no one has any value. There are many more who will leech the system than those who will do unfair things in the name of greater profit.

Concepts like these, as I said, destroys self worth and value. If your working for a company that is paying you $10 and its really worth $20, then go find someone willing to pay you $20 who appreciates your work. If you marginalize yourself then what will you find, a bunch of $10 an hour jobs regardless of their true value. If enough people realize their true value and think they are getting screwed working for $10 an hour, then they will leave, or they will start their own business and put the cheap skate out of business.

People create businesses because they believe they can do it better than anyone else, where does social justice create that environment?

What creates the atmosphere of competition and the want for people to excel? Just so they can make the same amount of money as everyone else?

Not everyone is a genius and not everyone wins, any attempt to make it so that they do just destroys those who would generate the wealth needed to run the economy.

What you ultimately do when you attempt to make the world 'fair' is to tell that person "Here is what someone else has because your incapable of earning it yourself"

Entitlement will be the fall of Western civilization, or at least its complete fracturing into 2 classes. What most people who think like you do are attempting to do is to prop up the middle class but all your doing is destroying it.

You create the environment for businesses to do the things you hate the most. That is what most people do not get.

Liberal policies have driven the labor market into the crapper...and what good business person is not going to take advantage of that?

The rich get riches, the poor get poorer. You create what you are trying to stop.
 
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The basic tenet of a free-enterprise system is that economic actors seeking only to maximize their own gain will contribute to the greater good of all. It's true that Apple maximizes its profits by outsourcing its manufacturing operations to overseas suppliers who employ non-Americans, but by being successful Apple generates economic value for a host of domestic partners, middlemen, suppliers, and distributors. Think of all the independent developers who generate income from writing software for Apple products; the landlords who lease Apple retail space; and the hundreds of manufacturers of cases, headphones, and other Apple product accessories. Then there are the Apple authorized resellers and service shops, the FedEx and UPS drivers, the warehouses, the wireless carriers, the advertising companies, the media companies that distribute Apple's advertising, and, in turn, all the suppliers, landlords, partners and employees of these companies.

Then consider how much business Apple does in countries outside of the U.S. which generates tax revenue when repatriated. Consider also that Apple's stock is available for purchase by any American who wants to share in its profits, and that many Americans have, in fact, profited significantly by being owners of the company.

It would certainly be nice if America were once again the only infrastructure standing as in the 1950's when high school C students could get union jobs paying a lifetime of wages that could buy a decent house and send kids to college, but those days are gone, and it wasn't Apple who made manufacturing in America virtually extinct. There is nothing immoral about Apple focusing only on maximizing long-term profits within the bounds set by applicable law and regulations, and by doing so Apple, directly and indirectly, generates enormous economic activity and contributes to the economic fortunes of a great number of Americans who are and who are not Apple employees.

Our economy and our country have plenty of problems, but I don't think that having too many companies like Apple contributes to them, and I don't think companies that act like Apple does are evil--they are obeying the rules of the free enterprise system that served America very well for many years. Now if we can just come up with a tax policy that maximizes the contribution by rich and profitable companies to the well-being of our society without driving them into the arms of some other country, we'll all be happy.

If only people could look at things like you do. I am sick and tired of comments about how Apple is so evil because their products aren't made in the US.

People should look at the BOM for products like the iPad. Quite a few of of the components are designed by American companies. That is cash in the hands of those engineers and other employees of those companies.

Also, Apple builds a lot of Apple Stores, and they sure don't employ their own in-house construction people. They probably pay contractors to take care of that stuff. It's cash in the hands of the contractors, architects, engineers, etc.

Let's not forget the developers. Apple has paid out $2.5 billion to developers to date. That's not chump change. And we've barely scratched the surface of what mobile apps can do. The app market is growing by leaps and bounds. Other platforms like Android, Windows Phone/Mobile have tons of room to grow.

Online journalists and bloggers care about hits, so it's understandable that they will take liberties with the facts. But it behooves people on this forum to try to look past what hit-mongers say.
 
No one roots for Goliath

A lot of people don't like Apple very much. The fact that they are within striking distance of ExxonMobil doesn't help matters much.

You know what, people. Apple earned their success, fair and square. Of course, many of you won't see it that way. According to you, Apple engaged in illegal and underhanded business practices and got to the top in that manner. Well, I've got news for you. Apple is innocent until proven guilty, by a court of law. You'll have to forgive me for not having much faith in the court of public opinion. A kangaroo court in the most authoritarian regime imaginable is more just than the court of public opinion.
 
No - what is killing the "western world" right now are lazy / beauracratic / entitled / societies focused on esoteric moralities and booty / bling / hooters / free ride on the government.

Why would I assemble a computer in America at a loaded labor cost of $60 an hour when others in the world will do as good or better job for $6 an hour. They are hungry for the work and will have an improving quality of life compared to where they have been.

The western world society need to get of their asses and start hustling or they will fall further and further behind.

That too :)
 
However, I would agree with you if you are arguing that oil companies DEFINITELY make a larger net profit than Apple.

Actually Apple is not that far off. XOM made 30 Billion in the trailing twleve months. Apple is getting there fast and furious. Apple's profit margin is 20%+. XOM profit margin is around 8%
 
Disparity in market cap numbers. Can one of you clarify this please?

Yahoo reports that at the close of today:

21lityh.jpg


Apple - $374.01 - $346.74B
XOM - $71.64 - $352.90B

But this Reuters story http://news.yahoo.com/apple-briefly-becomes-largest-u-company-172629118.html

says "Exxon ended on Tuesday with a market cap of $348.3 billion followed by Apple at $346.7 billion."

The Apple market cap matches but not XOM. Which one is the correct one?
 
One thing about US manufacturing: http://shopfloor.org/2011/03/u-s-manufacturing-remains-worlds-largest/18756
Now, whether the US is or isn't the world's largest manufacturer (or what that even means?), it would seem fair to say, though, that manufacturing in America is hardly extinct.

Thanks, Jegbook, for your post, and I was surprised that with all the losses of manufacturing jobs the U.S. is at least one of the two largest manufacturing countries in the world, and I acknowledge that makes it a long way from extinction. Nonetheless, the disappearance of American manufacturing jobs since the high-water mark reached in the post-war years has been dramatic, accelerating most dramatically since 2000. Between that year and 2007, 3.5 million U.S. manufacturing jobs were lost. These are jobs averaging $22 an hour, far greater than those arising in the services industries. In 1950 34% of all non-farm workers were in manufacturing jobs; in 2009 that figure dropped to just 9%. In many cases these jobs were lost by older workers unlikely to qualify for jobs in other fields paying a comparable wage, causing family tragedies. Certainly many of these jobs were lost to productivity gains--the implementation of automation, computerization, and other technologies that make manufacturing less labor intensive. Just as certainly, though, there are millions of jobs that were once performed by Americans that are now being performed by workers in countries with lower labor costs, lower standards of living, fewer worker safety requirements, and less stringent controls on environmental degradation.

The loss of these jobs is devastating to the displaced workers and their families, but I have an even greater concern for today's graduating high school students who are not interested in academics and who have little aptitude or inclination for jobs in medicine, engineering, software design, or most of the other careers that we hear are going to characterize the American workforce of the future. Certainly there are good and respectable careers to be had as electricians, plumbers, plasterers, butchers, and mechanics, but there are not nearly enough of these jobs to employ all those who would want them. In a flat world, Americans can't expect to find unskilled and semi-skilled manufacturing jobs that pay enough to support the middle-class lifestyle their parents' generation may have enjoyed.

One poster, living in Germany I think, mentioned the European model where labor has a seat at the table, and where the need to maintain employment for current workers is an important criterion when the company is deciding where to site its manufacturing. I'm not sure most American businesspeople are comfortable with the local inefficiency that such a model is likely to produce. If the same product can be produced with the same quality in Madagascar where the hourly cost of labor is $0.18 instead of in the U.S. at $22, and if that product must compete on the shelves of Walmart with those of other companies, it may be that agreeing to employ American labor is a suicide pact for all of the company's workers and shareholders, and not just for the threatened workers on the line.

An often-mentioned solution is to impose high enough import tariffs so that foreign-made goods end up selling for just as much as the American-made product. I wish I understood all I know about international trade agreements, tariffs, Smoot-Hawley, and the politics that are said to have brought about tariffs that do little for domestic laborers but which did a great deal for the profits of protected corporations. It is said that these corporations made generous contributions to influence those with the power to set tariff policy. Our recent Supreme Court decision would seem to remove at least one of the safeguards against that sort of tempting corruption.

I've spent a lot of time in Europe and it's hard not to admire the social safety nets they've managed to weave, and even if some European countries are having difficulty getting through the end of the month, others, like many of the Scandinavian countries, seem to be financially sound and thriving despite what many Americans would regard as impossibly high tax rates. i can't pretend to know how they manage it, or if, in fact, they will be able to continue to.

I like free enterprise, and I believe in capitalism's power to provide incentives to succeed. I love the way our system rewards clever people who have something to contribute, even if it is to dream up a product that few others have any faith in. I am wary of managed economies: I don't want some commissar telling Henry Ford he just needs to make a faster horse. At the same time our system can be cruel, consigning the elderly, the socially unpopular, the injured, and the unneeded to lives of abject poverty. It can foster a callous disregard of the long-term effects of an obsession with short-term profits; it can create managers willing to destroy the environment, to despoil reserves, and to mislead shareholders and lenders. We need to find a way to ameliorate the worst side effects of free enterprise without either bankrupting our society or hobbling its economic engines. The best solution I can think of is to institute a wise and prudent government that is charged with ensuring the greatest good for the greatest number.

And I sure hope somebody else has a better idea than that.
 
Revenues stink as a metric to judge a company. A company can have high revenues but even higher expenses and make a loss for the year. So by your statistic a company in the red (but with high revenues) can be better then one that is in the black (but smaller revenues).

Apple is prime proof, you don't need high revenues to get high profits and a high market share. Actually I'd like to see the companies based on a profits/revenue earnt ratio.

Higher revenues certainly doesn't mean a company is "better" as that is a very subjective term however market cap doesn't either. Market cap is largely based on speculation and is very susceptible to market fluctuations. In 2000, Apple's market cap tanked due to an earnings pre-warning and the company's stock (and thus its value) tanked. Revenues is a good measure for a company's size and longevity. Profits are also a good measure but can be easily influenced by expense cutting which isn't sustainable for growth. Market analysts love to see higher revenues contributing to profits rather than cutting expenses. That is why Apple's stock has had such and incredible run-up. They have significantly increased profits by growing revenues.

As to your claim that Apple is "better" b/c of its market cap it all comes down to better for who. Investors, employees, consumers, charitable causes? Different companies will be ranked the best to different individuals.
 
GE has 479 billion dollars in debt, that is what is mind boggling... They are one of the largest non government debtors, but other then that it does not say much of anything.

They Enterprise Value number is a folly. By itself it is even more worthless then market cap for comparing publicly trade companies. Exxon and Apple are both worth much more to their owners then GE. In fact every GE stockholder is essentially in debt...

I agree. This enterprise value concept looks so bogus. Market Cap + Debt - Cash.. Oh..Come on!! All apple needs to do to beat XOM in this EV game is to borrow billions of dollars. That is child's play.

The stock price is supposed to price in the cash Apple has. So no need to adjust for anything. If at all there is some adjusting to do, it is to reduce the market cap by the potential tax liability when they bring the foreign cash back to the U.S.
 
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So you'd rather champion mediocrity?

Hardly.

But what do you say should happen to people who are too old, sick, weak, injured, or otherwise unable to contribute to the economy? I'm not suggesting it's an easy question. If you're a serious person, and not just a college sophomore who just finished Ayn Rand or just finished singing Kumbaya , it's a damn hard question. You don't want to provide incentives for the lazy, or for illegal immigrants from less-fortunate economies, but you're not going to throw people into Dickensian work houses either.

I think that a country that provides a military to protect us from without, a police force to protect from within, a robust multi-modal transportation system, public education for workers, a system of laws that aggressively protect private property, tangible and intellectual, generally uncorrupt officials, and access to dynamic and well-regulated financial markets is entitled to charge companies that thrive in the environment it has created for their share of the costs of maintaining a civil society. We live in a competitive world, and if Apple or any other company thinks it is being overcharged for the privileges it benefits from, it is free to find some other country to incorporate in. Then let them deal with the general of the next coup when he shows up with a fiat nationalizing the company.

We need to protect the losers in our economy because it's the right thing to do. But those who care little for such niceties need to do it out of enlightened self-interest. You didn't have to pay overmuch attention in history classes, or to watch too much news to know what happens when the winners get to thinking too much of themselves. Whether they're hauled to the guillotine, lined up in a basement in Yekaterinburg, or put on trial in Cairo, those with too strict a view of social Darwinism eventually learn just how the meek intend to claim their inheritance.

In America we've always managed to find a Teddy Roosevelt to bust the Trusts, a MacArthur to break up the Bonus Army, an LBJ to address roiling race relations, and a Reagan to eliminate 90% tax brackets. And when the country teemed with the same desperate, impoverished unemployed that led to Fascism and Stalinism in Europe, we found an FDR to allay our fears.

In free enterprise capitalism you can never let capital or labor have it all their own way. That hasn't led to mediocrity, it led to a balanced society that offered more real opportunity to more people than just about any other society the planet has ever known. Making sure we take some care of those whose opportunities are behind them isn't too much to give for what we get.

Now, just what constitutes "some care", and how much each person and company should have to pay to provide it? That's the hard question, and anyone who says he thinks the answer lies at either end of the spectrum is not being serious. Either that, or they're running in the Iowa caucuses.
 
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Hardly.

But what do you say should happen to people who are too old, sick, weak, injured, or otherwise unable to contribute to the economy? I'm not suggesting it's an easy question. If you're a serious person, and not just a college sophomore who just finished Ayn Rand or just finished singing Kumbaya , it's a damn hard question. You don't want to provide incentives for the lazy, or for illegal immigrants from less-fortunate economies, but you're not going to throw people into Dickensian work houses either.

I think that a country that provides a military to protect us from without, a police force to protect from within, a robust multi-modal transportation system, public education for workers, a system of laws that aggressively protect private property, tangible and intellectual, generally uncorrupt officials, and access to dynamic and well-regulated financial markets is entitled to charge companies that thrive in the environment it has created for their share of the costs of maintaining a civil society. We live in a competitive world, and if Apple or any other company thinks it is being overcharged for the privileges it benefits from, it is free to find some other country to incorporate in. Then let them deal with the general of the next coup when he shows up with a fiat nationalizing the company.

We need to protect the losers in our economy because it's the right thing to do. But those who care little for such niceties need to do it out of enlightened self-interest. You didn't have to pay overmuch attention in history classes, or to watch too much news to know what happens when the winners get to thinking too much of themselves. Whether they're hauled to the guillotine, lined up in a basement in Yekaterinburg, or put on trial in Cairo, those with too strict a view of social Darwinism eventually learn just how the meek intend to claim their inheritance.

In America we've always managed to find a Teddy Roosevelt to bust the Trusts, a MacArthur to break up the Bonus Army, an LBJ to address roiling race relations, and a Reagan to eliminate 90% tax brackets. And when the country teemed with the same desperate, impoverished unemployed that led to Fascism and Stalinism in Europe, we found an FDR to allay our fears.

In free enterprise capitalism you can never let capital or labor have it all their own way. That hasn't led to mediocrity, it led to a balanced society that offered more real opportunity to more people than just about any other society the planet has ever known. Making sure we take some care of those whose opportunities are behind them isn't too much to give for what we get.

Now, just what constitutes "some care", and how much each person and company should have to pay to provide it? That's the hard question, and anyone who says he thinks the answer lies at either end of the spectrum is not being serious. Either that, or they're running in the Iowa caucuses.

well said. here here
 
Damn people go of course much??? LOL, good god a lot of sealed up frustration. Have some alone time with your significant or your booty call and you'll fell better. If you smoke weed hit that too, or have a beer.
 
i own both stocks....but

if i had to buy one company and hold for next ten years,id pick xom...why?

tech comes and goes...while people drinking from same oil glass is only getting bigger....also xom pays a nice div of 2.5%

however congrats to steve and apple...enjoy your victory
 
i own both stocks....but

if i had to buy one company and hold for next ten years,id pick xom...why?

tech comes and goes...while people drinking from same oil glass is only getting bigger....also xom pays a nice div of 2.5%

however congrats to steve and apple...enjoy your victory

Tech comes and goes?
All these tech companies were around in 2001 and still around today. (a decade cause you said "hold for the next 10 years".)

Microsoft
Apple
IBM
Google
Intel
AMD
NVIDIA
Dell
HP
Amazon
Yahoo
Oracle
A heck of a lot of Phone carriers around the world
etc etc

Proof Tech is not coming and going. Some tech comes and goes but a lot of it is here for the long haul.
 
...and instead trying to "fix" the OS by adding more and more app launchers (e.g. the Dock, Spotlight, Launchpad)...

I stopped trying to follow your rant when you called Spotlight an "app launcher".
Kinda like a car can be called a paperweight, if you really want to.

(And the concept of "fixing" an OS (not an UI) by means of app launchers is funny, too. Hmm, even the "adding more and more" can be picked at: if a UI already supports keyboard and mouse input, why "add more and more" input mechanisms? Like say touch, multitouch, all kinds of physical sensors, speech recognition... maybe because each new addition does something different?)
 
As for Blu-Ray... I don't own a player and don't foresee ever owning one; only if DVD goes away.

I don't own a player, either. I considered buying a Blu-Ray player before I bought my AppleTV but I agree with Steve that the future is VOD and the last thing I want to invest in is dying technology. Never owned any Blu-Ray discs and haven't missed a thing.

BTW- I bought 10 shares of AAPL at $45 and more later at a much higher price. Wish I had been able to buy more. I also choose my mutual funds based on whether they invest in AAPL and my portfolios have been able to weather the fluctuations in the market over the years.
 
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