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Still rather disturbed by this. I know Apple are sort of desperate to start exploring new sources of revenue but climbing into bed with Goldman Sachs is akin to making a pact with Satan. Credit Cards are the source of misery for literally millions and millions of people unable to escape its clutches. Shame on Tim Cook. Can’t he make money elsewhere?

I wholeheartedly agree. Credit cards are for the young and foolish. We have all been there, and most of us are still saddled with the debt from our first credit cards. It's best to pay them off and just use cash or a debit card.

In my opinion, this just shows that Apple Pay is a failure. Apple obviously couldn't get retailers to buy new point of sales machines that worked with Apple Pay, despite the fact that some Apple fans thought that retailers would rush to replace older machines to take advantage of Apple Pay. Those machines are just to expensive to replace, especially for small businesses. Most of the stores I shop at don't support Apple Pay, and I have never seen someone use Apple Pay in real life. This Apple Card is just a sad attempt at replacing the expected revenue stream that Apple thought it would get with Apple Pay's adoption. Going with Goldman Sach, a bank that definitely cannot be trusted, also makes me think that Apple couldn't find a more trustworthy bank to partner with. I think this is going to be a titanium turd for anyone who gets it. Consumer beware...
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I want one as it would be easier for me to manage my credit and pay.
The best way for you to manage your credit is to stay way from credit cards! If you need to build your credit rating, use small loans with fixed payment plans and lower annual interest rates. Put money into savings, then use a debit card instead. No credible financial adviser will ever tell you to get a credit card.
 
You don’t. The issuing bank does not require a signature. The network does not require a signature. So no signature required. Like other banks, they will rely on knowing your spending patterns, travel plans, etc. to flag potentially fake spending.
Unfortunately plenty of merchants and/or their credit card systems still do for whatever reason.
 
Might as well blame Cook for everything.

(for Students): Failed an exam; Shame on Tim Cook ... the iPhone kept distracting me.

(for drivers): Got into an accident; Shame on Tim Cook ... Carplay's interface was bothering me.

(for mugged people): Got into a fight; Shame on Tim Cook ... Apple Watch didn't tell me to breathe so I could think twice about risking my life to protect my bag of coins.

(for general people): Got glass; Shame on Tim Cook ... the iMac display is just so big and bright and it's ugly when the screen becomes orange.

and the list goes on ... /s
This is a b.s. reply to a serious post. Credit card debt is a serious problem, especially in the United States. For a company like Apple, that tries to make you believe that they actually care about you, this is a big step backwards. And partnering with Goldman Sachs, the company literally responsible for defrauding millions of people, is definitely not a good look for Apple either.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2016/04/11/goldman-sachs-doj-settlement
 
I wholeheartedly agree. Credit cards are for the young and foolish. We have all been there, and most of us are still saddled with the debt from our first credit cards. It's best to pay them off and just use cash or a debit card.

In my opinion, this just shows that Apple Pay is a failure. Apple obviously couldn't get retailers to buy new point of sales machines that worked with Apple Pay, despite the fact that some Apple fans thought that retailers would rush to replace older machines to take advantage of Apple Pay. Those machines are just to expensive to replace, especially for small businesses. Most of the stores I shop at don't support Apple Pay, and I have never seen someone use Apple Pay in real life. This Apple Card is just a sad attempt at replacing the expected revenue stream that Apple thought it would get with Apple Pay's adoption. Going with Goldman Sach, a bank that definitely cannot be trusted, also makes me think that Apple couldn't find a more trustworthy bank to partner with. I think this is going to be a titanium turd for anyone who gets it. Consumer beware...
[doublepost=1554007497][/doublepost]
The best way for you to manage your credit is to stay way from credit cards! If you need to build your credit rating, use small loans with fixed payment plans and lower annual interest rates. Put money into savings, then use a debit card instead. No credible financial adviser will ever tell you to get a credit card.
Alternatively, credit cards can be used responsibly.
 
I travel a lot, a lot, as in I own my own company and travel to China a million times a year. My plastic cards were constantly being replaced from breaking at the strip. I've had the AMEX Platinum and Citi Prestige cards and since they both went metal, I haven't needed replacing. I've had both for at least 2 years, both look brand new. I know this may not be the case for everyone, but I literally went through plastic cards every few months.

I don't under why traveling a lot would damage your card...it literally just sits in your wallet or purse and can't be damage just because you are in a car or airplane for long periods of time. Owning your own company also shouldn't cause any unusual wear and tear on your card. What actually causes damage to your card is prolonged use. My plastic credit card still looks brand new after 3 years of having this iteration of it. However, I don't use it that much. My plastic debit card, which I have also had for 3 years and gets used an average of 20 times a week (that's over 3000 times since I have had it), is still in fair condition. I don't doubt your need for a metal card, but I think a metal card is totally unnecessary for 99.9% of the the rest of us.
 
The best way for you to manage your credit is to stay way from credit cards! If you need to build your credit rating, use small loans with fixed payment plans and lower annual interest rates. Put money into savings, then use a debit card instead. No credible financial adviser will ever tell you to get a credit card.

Your statement is just false. There are many reasons to have and use a credit card. It is difficult to rent a car with only a debit card. In addition many credit cards offer free primary rental card insurance (a great value even if one is partially covered with one’s regular insurance.

Fraud protection is better with credit cards than it is with debit cards. Hotels often take authorizations for incidentals, with credit cards, that has little effect on one’s purchasing power, however, with debit cards, that money can be locked up for several weeks until the authorization is released.

None of this counts the promotions and other benefits that many credit card companies offer (as an example the 2% discussed here).

While you may have had a bad experience with credit cards when you were younger, that is not true for everyone.
 
I wholeheartedly agree. Credit cards are for the young and foolish. We have all been there, and most of us are still saddled with the debt from our first credit cards. It's best to pay them off and just use cash or a debit card.

In my opinion, this just shows that Apple Pay is a failure. Apple obviously couldn't get retailers to buy new point of sales machines that worked with Apple Pay, despite the fact that some Apple fans thought that retailers would rush to replace older machines to take advantage of Apple Pay. Those machines are just to expensive to replace, especially for small businesses. Most of the stores I shop at don't support Apple Pay, and I have never seen someone use Apple Pay in real life. This Apple Card is just a sad attempt at replacing the expected revenue stream that Apple thought it would get with Apple Pay's adoption. Going with Goldman Sach, a bank that definitely cannot be trusted, also makes me think that Apple couldn't find a more trustworthy bank to partner with. I think this is going to be a titanium turd for anyone who gets it. Consumer beware...
[doublepost=1554007497][/doublepost]
The best way for you to manage your credit is to stay way from credit cards! If you need to build your credit rating, use small loans with fixed payment plans and lower annual interest rates. Put money into savings, then use a debit card instead. No credible financial adviser will ever tell you to get a credit card.
I always use my debit card. I want to get the score up thats all. I dont have a need for a small loan right now. I can funnel payments Im already making through a credit card.
 
As a 40-something who has NEVER used a credit card (only debit cards), and has never used credit at all - i buy everything outright from cars to houses - I literally have no credit history (no student loan, no mortgage. Even though I make 400k+ a year I can't get a simple entry credit card as I'm 'not in the system'. I went to Experian and Transunion earlier this year as I wanted to get a secured-card that offered cash-back or miles - and neither could provide me with a credit report as I was 'not on file'.. I spend over 10k a year on Apple products, and have a long history of this. I wonder if your relationship with Apple will have any bearing on getting a card - or if it's simply a credit worthiness call by GS - in which case I'm SOL.
Your post makes no sense. If you make over $400k a year, and pay for everything with cash or a debit card, why do you need a credit card? If you want to establish a line of credit (of which you obviously don't need given your current situation), get a personal loan from a bank, then pay it off or buy a car on credit. As long as you have money in the bank for collateral, this should be fairly easy for you to do. It's best to stay away from credit cards ... even the pretty looking ones with fruit logos on them.
Alternatively, credit cards can be used responsibly.
Almost anything can be "used responsibly." Unfortunately, a lot of things, especially credit cards, aren't. The bigger question is why use a credit card at all? There are so many other payment options that don't saddle you with a ton of debt.
 
Almost anything can be "used responsibly." Unfortunately, a lot of things, especially credit cards, aren't. The bigger question is why use a credit card at all? There are so many other payment options that don't saddle you with a ton of debt.
And many things are in fact used responsibly by many people. Credit card use has its various benefits, as has been pointed out in various posts, and doesn't need to saddle anyone with any debt at all. Ultimately it's certainly no worse than any other payment option, and in many cases can be better due to various benefits (again, assuming it's all used responsibly and no debt is involved).
 
I travel a lot, a lot, as in I own my own company and travel to China a million times a year. My plastic cards were constantly being replaced from breaking at the strip. I've had the AMEX Platinum and Citi Prestige cards and since they both went metal, I haven't needed replacing. I've had both for at least 2 years, both look brand new. I know this may not be the case for everyone, but I literally went through plastic cards every few months.
Its interesting you use a credit card over there.
Do you have a WeChat account that can handle payments? It seems everyone in the cities needs one of those now in Mainland China.
 
Your statement is just false. There are many reasons to have and use a credit card. It is difficult to rent a car with only a debit card. In addition many credit cards offer free primary rental card insurance (a great value even if one is partially covered with one’s regular insurance.

Fraud protection is better with credit cards than it is with debit cards. Hotels often take authorizations for incidentals, with credit cards, that has little effect on one’s purchasing power, however, with debit cards, that money can be locked up for several weeks until the authorization is released.

None of this counts the promotions and other benefits that many credit card companies offer (as an example the 2% discussed here).

While you may have had a bad experience with credit cards when you were younger, that is not true for everyone.

I used to travel a lot and I have never had a problem renting a car with a debit card, even in Europe.

I'm 48 years old and I have had more than a few credit cards. I paid them all off. I've been fortunate enough to put away enough money in the bank to make cash purchases on everything accept a mortgage and car payment. I "loan" myself money when needed. I also have a near perfect credit score. I now only have one credit card for "emergencies." However, I've only had one "emergency" in the last 10 years that required me to use it.

Cash back and "perks" are smoke screens used to conceal the credit company taking away even more money from you. They are like fools gold. Nice and shiny and makes you feel better about paying 3-10% more for something than you would have paid with cash.

As for fraud protection on my debit card, my bank has been excellent with that so far (knock on wood!). I'm only responsible for the first $50 if someone takes my card and goes on a shopping spree.
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And many things are in fact used responsibly by many people. Credit card use has its various benefits, as has been pointed out in various posts, and doesn't need to saddle anyone with any debt at all. Ultimately it's certainly no worse than any other payment option, and in many cases can be better due to various benefits (again, assuming it's all used responsibly and no debt is involved).
Credit cards are by far one of the worse (legitimate) payment options. The only thing worse would probably be a pay-day (high interest) loan.

I have a lot of friends who play the points game with their credit cards -- racking up points for hotels, airfare, and other knick-knacks. However, they are just fooling themselves into believing that they can get something for nothing. If they didn't use their credit card and just set the money aside from the interest they didn't pay by using cash, they would have been able to purchase far more.
 
Credit cards are by far one of the worse (legitimate) payment options. The only thing worse would probably be a pay-day (high interest) loan.

I have a lot of friends who play the points game with their credit cards -- racking up points for hotels, airfare, and other knick-knacks. However, they are just fooling themselves into believing that they can get something for nothing. If they didn't use their credit card and just set the money aside from the interest they didn't pay by using cash, they would have been able to purchase far more.
What interest is there to pay or put aside if a credit card is paid off in full every month? Absolutely nothing more is paid than what things actually cost. And with something like cash back money is even saved from that compared to other forms of payments, for example (not counting various other benefits that have been pointed out in various other posts, as has been mentioned before).
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As for fraud protection on my debit card, my bank has been excellent with that so far (knock on wood!). I'm only responsible for the first $50 if someone takes my card and goes on a shopping spree.
You might ultimately be responsible for the first $50, but until you resolve that you might be down quite a bit of money and perhaps even overdrawn while you deal with it all and the bank works on restoring it all for you. While it a credit card you wouldn't even feel any of it and wouldn't have any of your actual money at risk and have to worry about it even for a day or a few days if not more that the bank would take to restore what was actually taken out of your account. In most circumstances you wouldn't even be responsible for even $50 either.
 
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I used to travel a lot and I have never had a problem renting a car with a debit card, even in Europe.

I do not know when you stopped traveling a lot, but things have changed quite with renting cars using debit cards:

From Hertz’s Web site:

Using Debit Cards to Qualify for a Rental

At many Hertz locations, debit cards under a VISA, MasterCard and Discover logo which draw funds directly from the cardholder's account may be used at the outset of a rental to qualify for the rental where the following requirements are met:

  • at Hertz Airport locations, you will be required to provide proof of a return airline flight to coincide with the rental and present two (2) valid forms of identification;
  • at Hertz Off Airport locations, you will need to be at least 25 years old, present two (2) valid forms of identification and one of the following: (a) provide a Corporate Discount Plan (CDP) number or (b) proof of a return trip travel ticket to coincide with the rental (airline or cruise). However, there are exceptions to this general policy; Debit cards are not accepted at the outset of a rental to qualify for rentals in the New York Metropolitan Tri-State Area (NY, NJ, CT), areas of Hartford, CT, areas of Philadelphia, PA, areas of Boston, MA, areas of Manchester, NH, areas of Detroit, MI, areas of Baltimore, MD and Atlanta, GA.
From Avis:

Debit Card Policies

Most U.S. locations accept bank debit cards with the Visa or MasterCard logo as credit identification at the time of rental if you are at least 25 years of age. In most cases, U.S. locations will perform a credit check for debit card renters to determine credit worthiness at the time of rental. The renter must meet Avis' minimum criteria in order to rent. Currently, at all U.S. and Canada locations, debit cards are not acceptable as credit identification at the time of rental for all makes and models identified in the Avis Signature Series and for certain other premium vehicles. Debit cards are also not acceptable as credit identification at the time of rental at locations in the Metropolitan NY Tri-State area, Hartford, CT, Philadelphia area, Mississippi or Louisiana locations as well as other locations across the country. Canada locations do not accept bank debit cards as a form of credit identification. Debit Cards are acceptable for payment at the completion of your rental.

Also be advised that some Avis locations do not accept debit cards as a form of payment. Upon paying your rental with a Debit Card, Avis will generally request an authorization hold against your account for the estimated charges of the rental but reserves the right in its sole discretion to request extra value based on certain factors as we deem appropriate. Some exceptions may apply. THESE FUNDS WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE FOR YOUR USE. When the rental is over we will process the reversal but the bank may take time to post it back to the account.
I'm 48 years old and I have had more than a few credit cards. I paid them all off. I've been fortunate enough to put away enough money in the bank to make cash purchases on everything accept a mortgage and car payment. I "loan" myself money when needed. I also have a near perfect credit score. I now only have one credit card for "emergencies." However, I've only had one "emergency" in the last 10 years that required me to use it.

I already provided a link to National’s policy, but since it seems you did not bother reading it, here it is again:

RENTING A CAR WITH A DEBIT CARD:
Debit/check cards are considered to be any non-credit card bearing the VISA, MasterCard or Discover Card logo. Any other non-credit card without the VISA, MasterCard or Discover Card logo is not accepted.

When renting in the US, Debit/Check cards are accepted for customers with proof they have deplaned or disembarked at the rental location. Customers must have proof of a ticketed return or outbound trip from the location where the vehicle will be returned on an airline, cruise ship or train. For customers not deplaning or disembarking at the rental location and/or do not have evidence of a return or outbound trip, Debit/Checkcards are only accepted as a form of payment at the time of return.

Puerto Rico, a credit card in the name of the renter must be presented at the time of rental. Debit/check cards are only accepted for payment at time of return.



Without a credit card, one cannot be a member of National’s Emerald Club or Avis’s Preferred program.

Cash back and "perks" are smoke screens used to conceal the credit company taking away even more money from you. They are like fools gold. Nice and shiny and makes you feel better about paying 3-10% more for something than you would have paid with cash.

Other than gas, what places actually give you a discount for paying cash? Certainly no major retailer or grocer. If one pays in full every month, there are no extra fees, only benefits.

As for fraud protection on my debit card, my bank has been excellent with that so far (knock on wood!). I'm only responsible for the first $50 if someone takes my card and goes on a shopping spree.

That is $50 vs. $0 for most credit cards. In addition, there are different legal requirements, which make credit cards much better for you:

Debit vs. credit: legal protections differ
The law is more on your side when it comes to credit card purchases.

  • With credit cards: The governing law is the Fair Credit Billing Act, which is implemented by Regulation Z. The law limits liability on stolen credit cards to $50, and if you report the loss before your card is used, you are not responsible for any charges. Most major credit card companies and issuing banks also offer zero liability protection to consumers. In other words, if a thief uses your account to make purchases, you're not liable for a penny of the charges. Also, credit card users are not required to pay any amount that may be in dispute, meaning the cardholder retains use of the fund for the amount in question until the issue is resolved. While policies have changed in favor of debit card transactions (providing greater protection and in many cases zero liability), you still don’t have the degree of consumer protection with a PIN-based card as you do with a credit card.
  • With debit cards: The governing law is the Electronic Funds Transfer Act and its implementing regulations, Regulation E. In the event of a debit card theft, the victim may only find out after the money has been withdrawn from the account. Should you be aware that your debit card is lost or stolen, you can take action. The Electronic Fund Transfer Act gives you the right to dispute an error on your bank statement and gives you some protections. For unauthorized card purchases, your liability is capped at $50 if you notify your bank within two days of realizing your debit card is missing. But between two days and 60 days, you could be responsible for paying up to $500 of a crook’s spending spree. If you wait more than 60 days to contact the bank, you will be stuck paying every cent of the unauthorized charges, which could cause you to lose everything in your checking account.

Credit cards are by far one of the worse (legitimate) payment options. The only thing worse would probably be a pay-day (high interest) loan.

I have a lot of friends who play the points game with their credit cards -- racking up points for hotels, airfare, and other knick-knacks. However, they are just fooling themselves into believing that they can get something for nothing. If they didn't use their credit card and just set the money aside from the interest they didn't pay by using cash, they would have been able to purchase far more.

Actually, the opposite is true, if one is responsible. One pays no interest for using one’s credit card if one pays the balance in full every month, and one gets to keep the money in one’s interest bearing account an extra 20-55 days, in addition to any credit card perks.

Blaming the credit card for irresponsible use is like blaming for the car for drunk driving.
 
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When replying to a post that wasn’t directed at you, it would serve you well to read the thread and be sure your response makes sense in context.

Saving less means costing more, even when save is in bold font. There is a cost associated with the physical card. That's the entirety of my point here. Nothing more profound than that.

As you say, some of this recovers the expense to Apple of producing, delivering, tracking, maintaining and likely outsourcing the processing of that physical card. The additional saving through Apple Pay likely comes in part because Apple's costs are lower that way, and because they see long term strategic value in encouraging more adoption of Apple Pay. The further additional savings for purchases through Apple are compensated by the fact that they don't have to pay the processing fee to someone else.

And, of course, none of this is actually a savings, and I find it troubling that people see it that way, but that's a separate discussion.

If you never use the physical card. It costs zero.
 
What interest is there to pay or put aside if a credit card is paid off in full every month? Absolutely nothing more is paid than what things actually cost. And with something like cash back money is even saved from that compared to other forms of payments, for example (not counting various other benefits that have been pointed out in various other posts, as has been mentioned before).
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You might ultimately be responsible for the first $50, but until you resolve that you might be down quite a bit of money and perhaps even overdrawn while you deal with it all and the bank works on restoring it all for you. While it a credit card you wouldn't even feel any of it and wouldn't have any of your actual money at risk and have to worry about it even for a day or a few days if not more that the bank would take to restore what was actually taken out of your account. In most circumstances you wouldn't even be responsible for even $50 either.

"if a credit card is paid off in full every month.." Notice this statement. A lot of folks don't pay off their cards every month and the fees for not doing so are enormous. Then there are the annual fees for having the card. My parents, in-laws, and several of my friends have American Express cards...

Someone recently stole my wife's purse with her debit card in it at a concert. We contacted the bank, who immediately suspended the card. The person made several transactions before and after the card was reported stolen. We were able to track the transactions on my wife's phone in real time and the bank didn't process the payments. We lost nothing, not even the first $50. I am way too old, too street wise, and too experienced to fall for the "having a credit card is better" line.
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I do not know when you stopped traveling a lot, but things have changed quite with renting cars using debit cards:

From Hertz’s Web site:

Using Debit Cards to Qualify for a Rental

At many Hertz locations, debit cards under a VISA, MasterCard and Discover logo which draw funds directly from the cardholder's account may be used at the outset of a rental to qualify for the rental where the following requirements are met:

  • at Hertz Airport locations, you will be required to provide proof of a return airline flight to coincide with the rental and present two (2) valid forms of identification;
  • at Hertz Off Airport locations, you will need to be at least 25 years old, present two (2) valid forms of identification and one of the following: (a) provide a Corporate Discount Plan (CDP) number or (b) proof of a return trip travel ticket to coincide with the rental (airline or cruise). However, there are exceptions to this general policy; Debit cards are not accepted at the outset of a rental to qualify for rentals in the New York Metropolitan Tri-State Area (NY, NJ, CT), areas of Hartford, CT, areas of Philadelphia, PA, areas of Boston, MA, areas of Manchester, NH, areas of Detroit, MI, areas of Baltimore, MD and Atlanta, GA.
From Avis:

Debit Card Policies

Most U.S. locations accept bank debit cards with the Visa or MasterCard logo as credit identification at the time of rental if you are at least 25 years of age. In most cases, U.S. locations will perform a credit check for debit card renters to determine credit worthiness at the time of rental. The renter must meet Avis' minimum criteria in order to rent. Currently, at all U.S. and Canada locations, debit cards are not acceptable as credit identification at the time of rental for all makes and models identified in the Avis Signature Series and for certain other premium vehicles. Debit cards are also not acceptable as credit identification at the time of rental at locations in the Metropolitan NY Tri-State area, Hartford, CT, Philadelphia area, Mississippi or Louisiana locations as well as other locations across the country. Canada locations do not accept bank debit cards as a form of credit identification. Debit Cards are acceptable for payment at the completion of your rental.

Also be advised that some Avis locations do not accept debit cards as a form of payment. Upon paying your rental with a Debit Card, Avis will generally request an authorization hold against your account for the estimated charges of the rental but reserves the right in its sole discretion to request extra value based on certain factors as we deem appropriate. Some exceptions may apply. THESE FUNDS WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE FOR YOUR USE. When the rental is over we will process the reversal but the bank may take time to post it back to the account.
I'm 48 years old and I have had more than a few credit cards. I paid them all off. I've been fortunate enough to put away enough money in the bank to make cash purchases on everything accept a mortgage and car payment. I "loan" myself money when needed. I also have a near perfect credit score. I now only have one credit card for "emergencies." However, I've only had one "emergency" in the last 10 years that required me to use it.

I already provided a link to National’s policy, but since it seems you did not bother reading it, here it is again:

RENTING A CAR WITH A DEBIT CARD:
Debit/check cards are considered to be any non-credit card bearing the VISA, MasterCard or Discover Card logo. Any other non-credit card without the VISA, MasterCard or Discover Card logo is not accepted.

When renting in the US, Debit/Check cards are accepted for customers with proof they have deplaned or disembarked at the rental location. Customers must have proof of a ticketed return or outbound trip from the location where the vehicle will be returned on an airline, cruise ship or train. For customers not deplaning or disembarking at the rental location and/or do not have evidence of a return or outbound trip, Debit/Checkcards are only accepted as a form of payment at the time of return.

Puerto Rico, a credit card in the name of the renter must be presented at the time of rental. Debit/check cards are only accepted for payment at time of return.



Without a credit card, one cannot be a member of National’s Emerald Club or Avis’s Preferred program.



Other than gas, what places actually give you a discount for paying cash? Certainly no major retailer or grocer. If one pays in full every month, there are no extra fees, only benefits.



That is $50 vs. $0 for most credit cards. In addition, there are different legal requirements, which make credit cards much better for you:

Debit vs. credit: legal protections differ
The law is more on your side when it comes to credit card purchases.

  • With credit cards: The governing law is the Fair Credit Billing Act, which is implemented by Regulation Z. The law limits liability on stolen credit cards to $50, and if you report the loss before your card is used, you are not responsible for any charges. Most major credit card companies and issuing banks also offer zero liability protection to consumers. In other words, if a thief uses your account to make purchases, you're not liable for a penny of the charges. Also, credit card users are not required to pay any amount that may be in dispute, meaning the cardholder retains use of the fund for the amount in question until the issue is resolved. While policies have changed in favor of debit card transactions (providing greater protection and in many cases zero liability), you still don’t have the degree of consumer protection with a PIN-based card as you do with a credit card.
  • With debit cards: The governing law is the Electronic Funds Transfer Act and its implementing regulations, Regulation E. In the event of a debit card theft, the victim may only find out after the money has been withdrawn from the account. Should you be aware that your debit card is lost or stolen, you can take action. The Electronic Fund Transfer Act gives you the right to dispute an error on your bank statement and gives you some protections. For unauthorized card purchases, your liability is capped at $50 if you notify your bank within two days of realizing your debit card is missing. But between two days and 60 days, you could be responsible for paying up to $500 of a crook’s spending spree. If you wait more than 60 days to contact the bank, you will be stuck paying every cent of the unauthorized charges, which could cause you to lose everything in your checking account.



Actually, the opposite is true, if one is responsible. One pays no interest for using one’s credit card if one pays the balance in full every month, and one gets to keep the money in one’s interest bearing account an extra 20-55 days, in addition to any credit card perks.

Blaming the credit card for irresponsible use is like blaming for the car for drunk driving.
First, I've read and understood everything you wrote. Like I mentioned in one of my previous post, I have one credit card for emergencies (like holding a rental car or buying a last minute airline ticket when needed). The issue is that I have never needed it.

Second, my wife and I each have seperate accounts for our debit cards. We only put money in them when needed, which we can do in seconds from our phones. Those accounts ARE NOT TIED TO OUR MAIN ACCOUNT OR SAVINGS ACCOUNTS -- meaning that if someone were to go on a spree, the most they would get is the $40 or so we keep in our debit accounts. The accounts also have email and text alerts that let us know when they have less than a certain amount in them.

The very first thing our financial advisor told us to do was to PAY OFF AND CLOSE all but ONE credit card account. We did that and our life have been better for it.
 
"if a credit card is paid off in full every month.." Notice this statement. A lot of folks don't pay off their cards every month and the fees for not doing so are enormous. Then there are the annual fees for having the card. My parents, in-laws, and several of my friends have American Express cards...

The first part of your argument seems to be: “Some people use credit cards irresponsibly, so no one should have one.”

As for your statement about annual fees, there are many cards that do not have them (for example the Apple Card that is the basis of this thread), and those cards with annual fees usually provide benefits to their users that exceed the cost of the fee (as an example, it is cheaper to get a United Club membership though the Chase United Club Card, than it is to join directly for many people).

The second part seems to be: “Some credit cards have annual fees that provide services I do not value, so no one should have a credit card (even those without annual fees).”

Someone recently stole my wife's purse with her debit card in it at a concert. We contacted the bank, who immediately suspended the card. The person made several transactions before and after the card was reported stolen. We were able to track the transactions on my wife's phone in real time and the bank didn't process the payments. We lost nothing, not even the first $50.

That is great that your bank decided not to charge you what they are legally allowed to charge you, however, as I pointed out, they are legally allowed to you much more with a debit card, then with a credit card.

You seem to pick the best example possible case for debit card use vs. the worst possible use for credit cards. Irresponsible use of debit cards is likely to cost even more than irresponsible use of credit cards (every time one makes a charge with one’s debit card that causes an overdraft, one pays fees that make the credit card interest rate seem low by comparison, as just a single example).

I am way too old, too street wise, and too experienced to fall for the "having a credit card is better" line.

I think you mean: “I am just unwilling to accept that anyone could use a credit card responsibly and receive all the benefits of them, so I will not have one and no one else should.”
 
We were able to track the transactions on my wife's phone in real time and the bank didn't process the payments. We lost nothing, not even the first $50

There is a safe period where merchants take a few days to clear a purchase. Unlike credit cards though, once the payment is processed completely, it’s directly debited from your account. Imagine having to go thru an ordeal to try and credit money back to your account. And no, this isn’t paper money to play with either. It’s your actual money gone.

Credit cards are the safer route here for this.
 
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"if a credit card is paid off in full every month.." Notice this statement. A lot of folks don't pay off their cards every month and the fees for not doing so are enormous. Then there are the annual fees for having the card. My parents, in-laws, and several of my friends have American Express cards...
That was the whole point about using credit cards responsibly made in many posts. There are people who don't pay off credit cards, just as there are people who do all kinds of things that aren't good. The whole point is that if credit cards are used responsibly -- as in paid off all the time -- then nothing more is paid when they are used. Seems like that point just gets ignored and deflected from.

As for annual fees, there are many -- in fact very many -- credit cards without annual fees.
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The first part of your argument seems to be: “Some people use credit cards irresponsibly, so no one should have one.”

As for your statement about annual fees, there are many cards that do not have them (for example the Apple Card that is the basis of this thread), and those cards with annual fees usually provide benefits to their users that exceed the cost of the fee (as an example, it is cheaper to get a United Club membership though the Chase United Club Card, than it is to join directly for many people).

The second part seems to be: “Some credit cards have annual fees that provide services I do not value, so no one should have a credit card (even those without annual fees).”



That is great that your bank decided not to charge you what they are legally allowed to charge you, however, as I pointed out, they are legally allowed to you much more with a debit card, then with a credit card.

You seem to pick the best example possible case for debit card use vs. the worst possible use for credit cards. Irresponsible use of debit cards is likely to cost even more than irresponsible use of credit cards (every time one makes a charge with one’s debit card that causes an overdraft, one pays fees that make the credit card interest rate seem low by comparison, as just a single example).



I think you mean: “I am just unwilling to accept that anyone could use a credit card responsibly and receive all the benefits of them, so I will not have one and no one else should.”
All of this summarizes it all quite well.
 
Well, I think credit cards managed properly are a very good thing. I rarely ever get charged interest on a credit card, as I usually pay them off each month. I accidentally paid off one of my cards an hour after the deadline last month, and we got hit with $40 of interest which ticked me off, but it was my fault.

I have all my cards on automatic payments of an amount that would meet or exceed the minimum by the due date, and then I make a second payment before the statement prints to pay off the rest of the previous balance. Except that I got busy and forget the second payment until the last minute. So this is an example of when using a debit card might be better than a credit card.

All of our major bills like mortgage, utilities, phones, car payments, and insurance are automatically deducted from our checking account each month as ACH. So with everything on autopay, something bad could happen to me and as long as my wife kept enough money in the joint checking account the bills would keep getting paid without her intervention.

Occasionally we have needed money where I didn't want to use up any of our cash reserves, or needed to carry a balance for a little while on an unexpected expense, so that I could use our cash to pay for something like college tuition each spring and fall (we don't do student loans anymore). For that we have a plethora of 0% cash advance checks from various credit cards, that give us up to 15 months to pay with no interest.

If I carry a credit balance for a few months it is only from using those 0% checks or balance transfer, and I set up an automatic monthly payment to pay it off by a certain target date, usually well before the rate expiration date. We have four credit cards that are only used for these 0% checks for cash advances, and we carry no other balance on them that could accrue interest while paying off the 0% loan.

The last one we used to was pay to tear down and rebuild our back deck last fall, and I'm paying $260/mo x 12 months for the deck, which will pay it it off 3 months before the 0% rate expires. I paid a $90 one time 3% fee for the approx $3030 1-yr loan, and I was able to use the cash on hand for things like college expenses (parent student student loans would be almost 8%). This loan used up less than 18% of the credit limit, so it didn't harm our credit score.

I've also bought a few nice watches with my PayPal credit and paid them off in 6 months with 0% interest, and the balance carried with PayPal credit doesn't even get reported to the credit agencies to affect my credit score, so I could use 100% of that limit as long as I pay it off before they can start charging 21%!

We only keep a couple of credit cards on our person at any time. I carry our Chase card and a Capital One card with no annual fees, but the wife and kids use only the Capital one account where (unlike Chase) we all have a different card number for the account. That way if one is lost or stolen we don't have to replace everyone's cards.

My wife has a second Capital one card that she only takes traveling, and keeps it separate so that if her purse is stolen she can go back to the hotel room for the other one. We use the cards mostly for online purchases, hotel, car rental or airfare, gas and restaurants, or at places where we might encounter a hidden card skimmer that steals our number, so that our bank account stays safe at all times.

I have several other credit cards that always live in the safe and don't go out in the wild to be skimmed - where one of them is used for monthly recurring purchases like roadside assistance, streaming services, online storage, pet insurance, etc... that can be signed up for and paid online without sharing the card number with a person. I have a separate card that also lives in the safe for monthly recurring transactions where the card number has to be verbally given to someone, so if the number gets out I have a limited list of people and places (alarm company, gun club, lawn care, etc) that could have leaked it.

The only issue with these 2 cards is that we intermittently need to update the CC expiration dates for these automatic payments to continue, and it would almost be better if they were also coming directly out of the checking account. While it's only 2 cards that need expiration dates to be updated online with the vendors, it's about 30-40 different vendors with recurring payments who need to be updated with the 2 cards.
 
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This is a b.s. reply to a serious post. Credit card debt is a serious problem, especially in the United States. For a company like Apple, that tries to make you believe that they actually care about you, this is a big step backwards. And partnering with Goldman Sachs, the company literally responsible for defrauding millions of people, is definitely not a good look for Apple either.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2016/04/11/goldman-sachs-doj-settlement
It's a b.s. reply to a b.s. post. I'll agree with you on the Goldman Sachs thing and credit card debt being a problem, but I don't see how you can relate that to a **** up on Apple's part.

It's an individual's responsibility to a) manage their finances, b) budget appropriately, and c) spend appropriately. Just because Apple offers you a credit card, it doesn't mean you have to take it and spend it wildly. We would also have to see how the Apple Card actually turns out. If Apple can help you budget a little bit better, it might be worthwhile.

Building credit is important, and I think the Apple Card could be a useful tool for those just starting out (presuming it's easy to get the Apple Card). From what I remember, Apple allows you to schedule multiple payments, gives you some information about the balance (like how much interest you would have to pay, etc.). Having a credit card isn't evil, it's necessary to build a credit history. If I spend $1000 on an Apple product when I have $300 in the bank account, I'm guessing it's Tim Cook's fault for releasing the $1000 product, right?
 
Using a credit card and paying the balance in full when due is a smart financial move. You’re getting free use of someone else’s money. Sometimes you can get about 45 days from time of use to payment date depending upon your purchase date and billing cycle. But you have to be disciplined. This is especially useful for business owners.
 
With Kroger, it's a slow going process. They publicly started the process almost a year ago, their internal debate surely started long before then, and it's only one company doing it at a small number of stores in a small number of states.

So in the Kroger case, my estimate that it takes longer than a year for business models to change is valid.

I'd be interested in sources regarding them starting the process. I mean, it's well known that retailers have been suing the networks for at least a decade, but this sounds like a separate thing from that lawsuit.

To your point, that FRB paper is dated 8/2010, a year before the Durbin Amendment, so obviously rewards cards predated the law change. I'd specifically meant "cash reward" cards but, you're right, they predate the new law as well. Not sure where I read otherwise. As you suggest, I may have missed a distinction between existence and prevalence. Discover seems to have led the charge in this area, and the higher fees associated with it seem to be one of the reasons for its limited acceptance.

Speaking of prevalence, this says that there were 1.4 billion credit cards in the US in 2000, and 877 million in 2010. It did supposedly go up to 1.2 billion in 2017 but that might be an estimated figure. Unfortunately, there's no breakdown of rewards vs. non-rewards credit cards.

(And for Discover, there's almost no difference between them and Visa/MC in terms of number of merchants: 9.3 million vs. 9.5. Of course, there might have been more of a difference earlier on.)

To my point, the FRB paper goes into quite some detail of one of the distorting effects of rewards cards: wealth transfer from lower income consumers to higher income consumers:

"on average, the lowest income household ($20, 000 or less annually) pays a transfer of $21 and the highest-income household ($150, 000 or more annually) receives a subsidy of $750 every year [written in 2010]"​

The PERC paper you linked to above counters the Fed's analysis with what amounts to an opinion poll. People who get cash back like their cards more than people who don't. No surprise there. Given the conversation in this thread, it's clear people aren't thinking about what's actually happening behind the scenes-- they're just focused on the drip of rewards they see trickle back. A card with that trickle is preferred to one without.

The citation was more about the prevalence of rewards cards, not necessarily about the conclusions the paper came up with.

Speaking of those, this might be an interesting read. (Dated in 2019, even.) Apparently banks passed their losses from Durbin back to consumers and the impact to consumer prices was minimal outside of specific circumstances:

However, we find significant evidence of banks offsetting Durbin losses by raising other account fees. The share of free basic checking accounts (accounts with a $0 monthly minimum for all customers, regardless of account balance) decreases from 60 percent to 20 percent as a result of Durbin. Equivalently, average checking account fees increase from $4.34/month to $7.44/month. Monthly minimums to avoid these fees increase by around 25 percent, and monthly fees on interest checking accounts also increase by nearly 13 percent. A rough back-of-the envelope calculation suggests that banks make up approximately all Durbin losses. These higher fees are disproportionately borne by low-income consumers whose account balances do not meet the monthly minimum required for these fees to be waived.

...

We find some evidence that gas retailers with significant interchange savings lower prices following Durbin’s enactment. Pass-through is greatest in regions where debit usage is most common (so Durbin especially relevant) and where competition is highest. However, outside of the top savers, we find no evidence that other gas retailers passthrough interchange savings in the six months following Durbin’s enactment.

...

Given that banks completely offset interchange losses, barring complete pass-through of merchant savings, Durbin decreased consumer welfare. Importantly, even if merchants do pass along Durbin savings, the most sympathetic read of the evidence is that Durbin overall had zero impact on consumer welfare and had unintended distributional consequences, as higher bank fees are borne only by the poorest consumers, while everyone benefits from lower prices.

Anyway, this sounds like a transfer as well, albeit using a different mechanism. Of course, if credit card use dropped dramatically (say, due to interchange being capped on those as well and thus rewards disappearing), it may be possible that there'd be greater savings on the consumer side. However, the question then becomes whether there'd be enough price savings to offset increases in banking fees.

Something like 37% of debit card transactions are exempt from the cap.

Since merchants have the legal right to route however they want, I suspect many of the larger ones are already heavily encouraging (if not requiring) PIN input for them. Especially since they do that already for the others.

And cash is king on a transaction count basis.

Mainly for purchases under $10. At least for now.

In my opinion, this just shows that Apple Pay is a failure. Apple obviously couldn't get retailers to buy new point of sales machines that worked with Apple Pay, despite the fact that some Apple fans thought that retailers would rush to replace older machines to take advantage of Apple Pay. Those machines are just to expensive to replace, especially for small businesses. Most of the stores I shop at don't support Apple Pay, and I have never seen someone use Apple Pay in real life. This Apple Card is just a sad attempt at replacing the expected revenue stream that Apple thought it would get with Apple Pay's adoption. Going with Goldman Sach, a bank that definitely cannot be trusted, also makes me think that Apple couldn't find a more trustworthy bank to partner with. I think this is going to be a titanium turd for anyone who gets it. Consumer beware...

If it were truly a failure, Target wouldn't have bothered enabling NFC a few months ago on their terminals (that obviously already had the hardware built-in). Or really, any of the MCX holdouts for that matter. Hell, I'm honestly not sure banks in the US would have bothered considering contactless cards at all; they were pretty much okay IMO with only thinking about EMV before Apple came along. In fact, the US is still one of the only places worldwide where there's no contactless mandate in place.

That said, I believe that Apple Pay's (and the others) consumer usage hasn't grown nearly as quickly as people thought. This might have been due to unrealistic expectations, though.

BTW I see people paying with their phones at least once or twice a week now. It was once or twice every few months (if not less) during the first few years of Apple Pay. Of course, YMMV.

I have a lot of friends who play the points game with their credit cards -- racking up points for hotels, airfare, and other knick-knacks. However, they are just fooling themselves into believing that they can get something for nothing. If they didn't use their credit card and just set the money aside from the interest they didn't pay by using cash, they would have been able to purchase far more.

While I'm sure I would have been able to save up the money eventually, I know I wouldn't have been able to justify paying $11K for a round-trip business class ticket a few years ago (which I used points from my card for instead).

On the other hand, I get why it might not be a good thing from a societal perspective to have a system where that's possible.

That is $50 vs. $0 for most credit cards. In addition, there are different legal requirements, which make credit cards much better for you:

Debit vs. credit: legal protections differ
The law is more on your side when it comes to credit card purchases.

  • With credit cards: The governing law is the Fair Credit Billing Act, which is implemented by Regulation Z. The law limits liability on stolen credit cards to $50, and if you report the loss before your card is used, you are not responsible for any charges. Most major credit card companies and issuing banks also offer zero liability protection to consumers. In other words, if a thief uses your account to make purchases, you're not liable for a penny of the charges. Also, credit card users are not required to pay any amount that may be in dispute, meaning the cardholder retains use of the fund for the amount in question until the issue is resolved. While policies have changed in favor of debit card transactions (providing greater protection and in many cases zero liability), you still don’t have the degree of consumer protection with a PIN-based card as you do with a credit card.
  • With debit cards: The governing law is the Electronic Funds Transfer Act and its implementing regulations, Regulation E. In the event of a debit card theft, the victim may only find out after the money has been withdrawn from the account. Should you be aware that your debit card is lost or stolen, you can take action. The Electronic Fund Transfer Act gives you the right to dispute an error on your bank statement and gives you some protections. For unauthorized card purchases, your liability is capped at $50 if you notify your bank within two days of realizing your debit card is missing. But between two days and 60 days, you could be responsible for paying up to $500 of a crook’s spending spree. If you wait more than 60 days to contact the bank, you will be stuck paying every cent of the unauthorized charges, which could cause you to lose everything in your checking account.

From my understanding of Regulation E, the additional liability applies only if the card itself is lost or stolen. If it's cloned or defrauded through some other means, it wouldn't be an "accepted access device" and thus liability couldn't transfer to the cardholder. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

Additionally, there is a $50 maximum for credit cards too, not $0. But as you mention, it's $0 in practice. Plus, it's your own money that goes missing in the meantime with debit card fraud, even if it's only for a day or two.
 
I'm an expat living overseas.

Everything makes more sense. How often are you back in the U.S.? In what country are you currently living?

Do any U.S. banks have branches in your area?

You said you maintain a U.S. address. Do you have a state I.D. or driver’s license? At your U.S. address, do you have a utility account in your name (electricity, gas, sewer, or water) or a lease? Do you have a physical copy of your Social Security card?

If you do, next time you are in the states, go into a credit union apply for membership. Once the account is open, do a wire transfer to make sure you have over about 10K in the account. If you can afford it, setup an automatic transfer to the account of $25-$100 a month.

Try to open a credit card with them. If it fails, ask to speak to a manager and ask about opening a secured card.

I notified them I'd be taking out regular withdrawls as I was building a house. Over a period of 7 months I took out 380k for the land and house build. They closed my account without notice or reason.

How long ago was this? Were you withdrawing cash using overseas ATMs or going into a branch, doing wire transfers or writing checks to yourself to be deposited in an overseas account? (How you were doing it matters as it may explain why/how/if your account was flagged or if it was you that was flagged.)

After MANY calls - one newbie customer service agent alluded that it was due to money laundering suspicion etc.

If this was more than a year ago, not much you can do now, if more recent, you should contact CitiBank’s executive offices and the CFPB.

But essentially no - all my banks are overseas now except a small USA account I keep for Amazon.

Do any of your overseas banks have branches in the U.S.? Can you transfer money into your U.S. account to get it to over about $10,000, and leave it there for 4-6 months? Did you try opening a secured credit card with them?

Yes, earlier this year I decided to build up credit (for airmiles / cashback) - I tried to get secured cards and was denied. I went to two credit agencies to get my report and both couldn't issue me a credit report as they said I wasn't on file.

Did they say they say they had no file or could not verify you? They should request that you send them a letter with a copy of your Social Security Card, something with proof of address (that is a lease, a copy of a driver’s license or state ID, a bank statement, or a utility bill - electricity, gas, sewer or water) and a government issued photo ID.

You should request your files from Lexis/Nexis, Experian, Equifax, TransUnion and ChexSystems at a minimum. Many banks use ChexSystems to verify accounts and to make sure you have not bounced a check.

I tried to open another USA brokerage account and was denied as well. Very weird. (I maintain a USA address etc).

In fact, I applied to get one of the cards where you send in 500 and get a 500 card (not really a secured card - a cash card) and was denied for that too. lol

If you are being denied, they are required to tell you based on information from what credit bureau they are denying you. Then you start with them and correct your information.

I've been overseas for almost 16 years, and never had credit in USA before that.. so, not sure what to do.

Have you tried to open a credit card with a local bank? Ideally someone with whom you have an account with lots of money.

Apple card looks cool - but if it's just a bank card needing a decent credit rating - not going to happen for me. ;)

You might also try to open a Marcus by Goldman Sachs savings account, so that you have a history with them. You have at least six months to build enough of a credit profile to get the card when issued. If you have no derogatory marks (collections, charge-offs, etc.) you should be able to build a good credit profile in that period, especial if you are willing/able to spend a small time in the U.S. to make it work (at a minimum opening one or two bank accounts in person and ideally getting a state ID).

Again, FicoForums.myfico.com has great information on the process.
 
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