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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by MacRumors, Mar 8, 2017.
I bet you're with her.
Look at Apple bringing all these diverse people of differing opinions and backgrounds together. Brings a tear to my eye.
I know you and "Huck" probably think it, but I'm not actually a moron. I do understand the differences between males and females. However, when in a conversation about feminism, the implication of equality is not biological, but cutural. Obviously.
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Lol, no. I'm not on "evil Hilary's" side either. …Or whatever Trump supporters feel the need to demean her with. Don't get excited. I'm not quite as predictable.
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Culturally we are not equals either. In the US a man can not get maternity leave, but a woman can. We are not equal and never will be.
If they voted for Trump, and I know some who did, it's because they felt that Hillary wasn't much better because of her part in covering up or supporting her dawg of a husband, for doing pretty much the same thing but with a more oily sheen to it. And they were hoping that at least Trump might save some jobs that the liberals or Democrats ignored for a long time. (To be fair, so did the Republicans). There were some serious flaws in Hillary's campaign, especially in terms of ignoring the electoral system, that no amount of feminist loyalty could save.
Someone close to me is actually friends with one of the women who was stupid enough to mess around with Bill and let me tell you, talking about the fallout from that is so scary, it is something done in whispers and vaguely. These are powerful people you do not want to cross. Hillary's complicity in all of that is no different than Trump's boorish behavior in terms of humiliating and setting women back.
I actually voted for Hillary, knowing some things that I know that I won't talk about further, ever, but I did so while holding my nose and praying God would right things if I was making a mistake. She did at times have a very inspiring message of inclusivity and some plans I hoped would do some good for the middle class and for families. So I put aside my reservations about her as a person and banked on her ability to organize and lead.
It came down to two choices that were not much of a choice in the end. I did want to see a woman President be elected in my lifetime but I'm honestly not crying nor marching over the fact it wasn't that particular one.
Frankly neither Trump nor Hillary seemed to have a firm grasp of concepts like net neutrality, so all of us internet geeks are screwed. I think Martin O'Malley did, but he didn't stand a chance.
As for the rise of expression of racial hatred, anti semitism and misogynistic rhetoric, while I can see that it's definitely at a high level I haven't seen in decades, but I won't lay that at Trump's feet. I have been running into anti semitism for years as the conspiracy theories have been gaining traction. I follow a lot of this stuff and it was all going to come out in the next few years anyway. It was really grassroots stuff and Trump just coasted in on the crest of a wave because he is a consummate opportunist. But he didn't originate it. Oddly enough, there was a lot that Obama did to ignite it all. There were two forces coming from opposite directions peaking into the poopstorm we are living through now.
I think we should just celebrate ourselves and each other. White, black, Asian, male, female, binary, none of the above, whatever. All of us have a finite span of time in which to make this world better than we found it or at the very least, do no harm and leave each other in peace.
Men are awesome, don't believe that us women are trying to tell you otherwise, just because we want a day to celebrate our female awesomeness. Y'all deserve a day, too. Thanks for so much, guys. And I leave you with this...
Ah, it's good to know that nothing that is illegal ever happens.
No, but I got paternity leave, which was pretty nice.
Cool! Are the movies "F-rated" so we know which ones to pick (wink wink)?.
Hah you might want to figure what modern feminism has come to mean before you try to school me. I treat everyone as equal. There's no reasoning with a modern feminist though
Ah so now it's "modern" feminism. As if that were a thing. But sure, go on and entertain further. Hilarious so far.
This is not the 1940s and 50s. I think Western culture, by and large, has changed. You'll always have outliers in every society. That's because we're human beings, not machines. However, if we took a sampling of people from ages 18 to 40 and asked them if they felt "threatened" by the equality of women, I think the vast majority of them would think that was a bizarre question. International Women's Day was started ~1909. Back then, women really DID face inequality -- the likes of which most people born after 1975 have no clue about.
Unfortunately, International Women's Day has devolved for some people (particularly millennials) into nothing more than another excuse to stand up against being "oppressed". Many of these vocal millennials come from middle and middle upper class families. They had a nice, cozy childhood in the suburbs where mom and dad catered to them. Most of these kids have no idea what it means to be oppressed; but they act like they're on some sort of crusade because they, and a bunch of people they know, have been slighted by society.
A good number of them are upset because they can't land jobs straight out of college that pay $70,000/year and they have a mountain of student loan debt to pay. They grew up feeling entitled and now they feel that society owes them a decent paying job straight out of college and they're upset that, as most of us who are a little older know, it doesn't usually work that way.
Well, they did cheer Hitler into power with massive Trump-esque hate filled rallies. Those who opposed the horrors against the Jews were not able to stop him, even though they could have early on. Pick up a book and read.
The problem is the a certain percentage of men still act this way and cause the majority of the problems. Just like there is a fringe group of women who cause issues being "man haters." If there is anything at all that I've learned in the past few years that has had the biggest impact on me, it's this: Just because I haven't seen something happen doesn't mean that it's not happening. My world view is based entirely around my experience, and my experience is that of a straight, white, Christian male in his early 30s that grew up lower middle class. I don't experience the inappropriate comments because I'm not a target. I can't experience the subtle gestures, the uncomfortable stares, the suggestive phrases, the being passed over for a promotion by the "guy with a penis" who shows up to work late every day and has lower performance scores than I do. There is so much arbitrary B.S. that I never experience because I was born lucky. When I was walking home from class in college I didn't have townie's calling me the "N word" throwing beer bottles at me. I'm accepted because I'm the average. It's not about knowing you're equal, it's about being treated equal. Therein lies the rub.
There are a lot of men in here who have anecdotal evidence about the women in their lives not complaining about inequality. To these men, I posit this: YOU ARE THE TYPE OF PERSON THEY WOULD NOT TALK TO ABOUT THIS SORT OF THING. It is quite likely that they are actively avoid talking to you about issues like this because they know how you would react and fear retribution and condemnation. You are part of the problem.
42% of what?
That part of history is long gone. Being German myself, I don't need any education about our past. But I also don't need anybody pretending it's 1933. That's 84 years ago. Pick up a book and learn about what happened since then.
Besides, generalisations about entire countries are pointless, feed stereotypes and sweep all those under the carpet that don't fit your idea of history.
In some ways, life would be a whole lot easier if people were machines and they could simply be reprogrammed to behave in certain ways and not behave in other ways; but that's just not the way it works. There will always be ******s among us who don't treat people well.
As I said, though, I think there has been a cultural shift over the last several decades in Western culture; and the vast majority of people moving up through the workforce and management today are not afraid of women being in power. I've worked under two women in my career thus far and they were both excellent. Conversely, I've worked under a few men who were absolutely awful and I found another job within a year and a half. If someone is working under an ****** who doesn't treat people with even basic respect and dignity, they need to find another place to work where they are appreciated and treated with respect. These days, there are plenty of companies that go out of their way to hire qualified women and promote qualified women.
The really sad thing is that too many people allow their circumstances (many of which they cannot change because those circumstances were inherited by birth) define them and use those things as excuses for why they can't do whatever it is they want to do. They have an external locus of control. Those people live their lives such that they see themselves as defined primarily by external forces acting upon them that they have no control over (their family, gender, race, disability, the SES they were born into, the school they attended, etc.)
That is why we almost universally celebrate people who have an internal locus of control -- those people that rise above their circumstances they cannot change, persevere through difficulties, and succeed. I wish people guided by an internal locus of control were the clear majority in this world; but unfortunately, that does not appear to be the case. Or, perhaps it is the case and the external locus of control folks are just one hell of a vocal minority.
We all have aspects of ourselves and our lives that we wish we could change, but we can't. Even straight, white, Christian males like yourself have some aspects of themselves that they wish they could change. Some people will spend their entire lives either trying to change who they are or making excuses for themselves because of circumstances they have no control over instead of accepting who they are, the circumstances they have that they can't change, and then using their talents and abilities to make this world a better place while they're here. That's very unfortunate.
You do know that feminism happened in waves? Generally speaking, the consensus is...
"1st wave" = "suffragettes", which had the added benefit of giving men the right to vote in many countries, though they frequently opposed giving the poor any people of color the vote in areas
"2nd wave" = Legal rights (circa 50s-70s), right to equal pay and treatment before the law (a needed movement IMO if not without its own heavy baggage)
"3rd wave" = Far more complicated. With the legal rights won (where it benefits women, at least), it's more about societal norms and expectations, which are difficult to change for obvious reasons -- and nobody can agree on what changes need to be done. Hence, as many different "types" of feminism as there are people who claim to be feminists. Promoting the ideas through academia and the media seems to have been the most effective way of going about it.
That's easy to say from a place of privilege because for many people it's not that easy. Especially people just starting out in their careers—they're lucky to find a place to work at all. It's a huge problem for young people right now. It's no longer the 90s. There is a ton of competition just to get a foot in the door. The republicans sent a lot of the skilled labor overseas, the democrats let in a lot of the foreigners to take what was left, and everybody across the board has been automating jobs and utilizing technology to downsize. Even some law firms have started using AIs to do research on cases. All the jobs are being eaten from the bottom up, meaning people are stuck and the companies know they're stuck so they can get away with being worse than ever. And corporate interests are only going to be empowered through the current administration, while our rights continue to erode. People have to put up with a lot of garbage nowadays to make ends meet. I'm one of the lucky ones.
How sad that this discussion had to get put under the "political" part of the forums. And even more so that the comments demonstrate why it had to happen.