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pdoherty

macrumors 65816
Dec 30, 2014
1,341
1,602
Everything is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it, nothing more, and certainly nothing less. That goes for real estate, cars, boat, airplanes, job classifications, movie stars, art work, buildings, and all other needs for human talent from part-time janitors to CEO’s. If you are trying to sell a car for, say, $10,000 and no one is willing to pay that for it, that means it is worth more to you than anyone else. Someone, in Tim’s case the Apple Board of Directors, is clearly willing to pay him this amount for both what they believe his services are worth as well as reward for his accomplishments meeting goals. The value other entities like you and me place on Tim and his compensation are noted, but irrelevant.
Thing is, more than 60% of the people who sit on the corporate compensation committees that set these executive's pay are themselves C-level execs of other companies. They're voting each other raises. So it's literally a good old boy's club and not representative of actual value.
 

SalisburySam

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2019
792
673
Salisbury, North Carolina
Thing is, more than 60% of the people who sit on the corporate compensation committees that set these executive's pay are themselves C-level execs of other companies. They're voting each other raises. So it's literally a good old boy's club and not representative of actual value.
No, no, no. Again, and here I must quote me: “Everything is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it…”. That IS the actual value. That’s how actual value is set and defined. You can grouse about it, disagree with it, doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter who the ”someone’s” are. While that may smack of the “good old boys club” it absolutely represents actual value pretty much by definition. There is no other way of establishing value, none, nada, zippo, goose egg. Pay studies, very au currant today, are comparisons of supposedly similar jobs across companies, industries, geographies, and so on while trying to reflect local situations. That’s very similar to how appraisers and realtors value properties using “comps.” That’s fine unless you’re in, for example, a historic district where no two homes are at all the same size, architecture, or lot area and there are literally no comps to be had. We then go back to my quoted statement above. Artificial values can always be created such as, for example, salary caps, the ever-popular wage grade and step bands in government employment, and so on. Those have no direct correlation to value but are just a pay structure that’s quite easy to administer and automate, eliminating the alternative of renegotiating contacts for every employee every year. Jobs have to fit into those bands, not the reverse unless recruitment efforts turn up nothing and the job gets put into a different band. CEO of Apple is, to me, analogous to one of those historic homes…maybe not completely unique but rare enough for sure (how many trillion dollar companies are there again?) so few CEO ”comps” exist.

At one time not at all long ago, warehouse workers were “valued” at minimum wage-ish jobs below $7.50/hr or so. Then Amazon, Chewy, and lots of others started hiring warehouse workers at $15/hr. That set a buyer “value” of those jobs at $15 and sellers (workers) employed at lower levels jumped to these new “values.” When buyers of labor (Amazon, Chewy) and sellers of labor (warehouse workers) both agree to $15/hr, that job’s value is now $15/hr. If the Apple’s buyers of labor (Board of Directors) and sellers of labor (Tim Cook) both agree to $100million, that job’s value is $100million. It is, it just is. Regardless of who’s on the Board, and who’s providing the labor.

I wonder what valuation will be placed on Tim’s successor.
 
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SalisburySam

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2019
792
673
Salisbury, North Carolina
It's a valid observation. Prices are pieces of information that present a range of interdependent factors in a simple way. If you think $900 is a little expensive for an iPhone compared with similar alternatives but you value it's features and the company behind it, it makes sense for you to buy it. Would you pay $900,000 for it, though? Maybe sometimes the market is wrong.
Ability to pay is always a factor in valuation, but only at the micro level. No, I wouldn’t pay $900,000 for an iPhone, nor would I pay $900 either but that’s me. A smartphone device, for me, represents a device and set of features I value at about $600 and then only every 5-6 years. Obviously I am not keeping Apple in business but many millions of others feel differently. On the other hand as a member of the Board of Directors for a trillion-dollar company with billions sitting all over the world in cash, ability to pay is not really a factor, just the opportunity costs of money usage. As a Director, do I want that money used to reward/retain a CEO who has delivered more products, more investor value, and more overall growth than all but a very few companies on the planet armed with the specific goals and absolute expectations that that CEO will continue to do so? Unlike Tim, there are too many companies that are doing or have done quite poorly in the market with their products/services, limited/no growth, and evaporating investor value who’s C-suite all got enormous comp packages. Again, their respective boards must have thought that worth it, but those are the cases I get agita about, not Apple.

And do we dare speak of Federal politicians, especially members of Congress? Their comp, for crying out loud, is determined by THEMSELVES. I can get really torqued over that. But I have to breathe deeply now…and relax. Is it too early for that martini?
 

colt033

macrumors newbie
Dec 2, 2019
17
17
Japan used to have a thing called a 'maximum ratio' (a few US companies like Ben & Jerry's had it, too). It was a rule that said no executives could have a salary higher than 20 times what the lowest-paid worker made.

I see nothing wrong with some form of that, adapted for today

Tim isn't really delusional. He knows exactly what he's doing and you can be sure he doesn't want any attention focused on his salary.
Ability to pay is always a factor in valuation, but only at the micro level. No, I wouldn’t pay $900,000 for an iPhone, nor would I pay $900 either but that’s me. A smartphone device, for me, represents a device and set of features I value at about $600 and then only every 5-6 years. Obviously I am not keeping Apple in business but many millions of others feel differently. On the other hand as a member of the Board of Directors for a trillion-dollar company with billions sitting all over the world in cash, ability to pay is not really a factor, just the opportunity costs of money usage. As a Director, do I want that money used to reward/retain a CEO who has delivered more products, more investor value, and more overall growth than all but a very few companies on the planet armed with the specific goals and absolute expectations that that CEO will continue to do so? Unlike Tim, there are too many companies that are doing or have done quite poorly in the market with their products/services, limited/no growth, and evaporating investor value who’s C-suite all got enormous comp packages. Again, their respective boards must have thought that worth it, but those are the cases I get agita about, not Apple.

And do we dare speak of Federal politicians, especially members of Congress? Their comp, for crying out loud, is determined by THEMSELVES. I can get really torqued over that. But I have to breathe deeply now…and relax. Is it too early for that martini?
Popular delusions are still delusions. There are laws restricting the abuse of market power (and laws encouraging it). There is a suspect economic argument that Tim deserves this salary. There is no moral argument at all. Tim knows this and you can be sure he doesn’t want anyone looking at his compensation. People should think for themselves rather than just accept the supposed realities of life.
 
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SalisburySam

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2019
792
673
Salisbury, North Carolina
Tim isn't really delusional. He knows exactly what he's doing and you can be sure he doesn't want any attention focused on his salary.
You really aren’t getting it are you. Tim’s salary, and total compensation package as a C-level executive for a public company, is all published material in required SEC documents available to everyone. Whether he wants his comp package known or not is irrelevant. And not wanting attention paid? That ship sails when the SEC docs are published.
Popular delusions are still delusions. There are laws restricting the abuse of market power (and laws encouraging it). There is a suspect economic argument that Tim deserves this salary. There is no moral argument at all. Tim knows this and you can be sure he doesn’t want anyone looking at his compensation. People should think for themselves rather than just accept the supposed realities of life.
Interesting comments of yours:
  1. “…abuse of market power…” Don’t see how that happened in any way. Who was abused?
  2. ”…suspect economic argument…Tim deserves his salary.” There is no argument, suspect or otherwise. A salary isn’t deserved or undeserved, it is an agreement between two parties where each is able to say “no” or “yes.” Why is this so hard to grasp?
  3. “…no moral argument…” Of course not, it is not a moral issue, it’s contract law. Nothing moral nor immoral.
  4. ”People should think for themselves…” Gee, what does that have to do with anything here.
From your post what I see is jealousy, envy, and grousing about another person’s success. That says more about you than Tim. Do you feel the same way about Tom Cruise “earning” $25 million for three months work filming the next Mission Impossible installment? Or Michael Jackson “earning” tens of millions in royalties each year for (a) being dead, and (b) work he accomplished years ago? Oh the moral indignities! Please read this again to yourself slowly: everything is worth exactly what someone else will pay for it. Just not that hard.

I know this comes across more than a little snarky, and let me apologize for that in advance. That said, the basics are the basics, not at all delusions nor moral horrors. Perhaps more importantly, don’t let this employment issue totally unrelated to any of our daily lives keep your knickers twisted.
 
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colt033

macrumors newbie
Dec 2, 2019
17
17
You really aren’t getting it are you. Tim’s salary, and total compensation package as a C-level executive for a public company, is all published material in required SEC documents available to everyone. Whether he wants his comp package known or not is irrelevant. And not wanting attention paid? That ship sails when the SEC docs are published.

Interesting comments of yours:
  1. “…abuse of market power…” Don’t see how that happened in any way. Who was abused?
  2. ”…suspect economic argument…Tim deserves his salary.” There is no argument, suspect or otherwise. A salary isn’t deserved or undeserved, it is an agreement between two parties where each is able to say “no” or “yes.” Why is this so hard to grasp?
  3. “…no moral argument…” Of course not, it is not a moral issue, it’s contract law. Nothing moral nor immoral.
  4. ”People should think for themselves…” Gee, what does that have to do with anything here.
From your post what I see is jealousy, envy, and grousing about another person’s success. That says more about you than Tim. Do you feel the same way about Tom Cruise “earning” $25 million for three months work filming the next Mission Impossible installment? Or Michael Jackson “earning” tens of millions in royalties each year for (a) being dead, and (b) work he accomplished years ago? Oh the moral indignities! Please read this again to yourself slowly: everything is worth exactly what someone else will pay for it. Just not that hard.

I know this comes across more than a little snarky, and let me apologize for that in advance. That said, the basics are the basics, not at all delusions nor moral horrors. Perhaps more importantly, don’t let this employment issue totally unrelated to any of our daily lives keep your knickers twisted.
Also missing the point. I couldn't be less envious of Tim Cook. (Go cry to the moderator about that.)
 

ejin222

macrumors 6502a
Oct 12, 2011
564
432
From your post what I see is jealousy, envy, and grousing about another person’s success. That says more about you than Tim. Do you feel the same way about Tom Cruise “earning” $25 million for three months work filming the next Mission Impossible installment? Or Michael Jackson “earning” tens of millions in royalties each year for (a) being dead, and (b) work he accomplished years ago? Oh the moral indignities! Please read this again to yourself slowly: everything is worth exactly what someone else will pay for it. Just not that hard.
I think you nailed the point well. I don't get why certain actors or musicians or sports players get as much as they do, but that's just me~

Personally, I think the trillions of dollars Cook added to Apple's valuation (and yes, I think he is responsible for it and he wasn't just riding off of Jobs), makes him someone worth keeping. Cook is an Apple guy and has been loyal to the company for YEARS. In this age where people leave companies every 1-2 years to get paid more at a new company, I like that Cook endured under Jobs, learned from him, and applied what he knew best at the company. Was he the tech guy we all wanted? No. But I've liked the products that came under Cook (M1 machines, AirPods Pro, Apple Watch, iPad Pro, etc).

Keeping Cook has been one of the best decisions Apple has made, for me in particular. And I love that he said that he will give most of it away to charity before he passes. I can stand behind that kind of CEO.
 
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pdoherty

macrumors 65816
Dec 30, 2014
1,341
1,602
Comparing a guy running a company with tens of thousands of employees to a single person like an athlete or actor is weird. Tim could disappear for months on end and things will continue as if he was still there. None of the others would see the same results if the individual diasppeared.

Just to demonstrate how NON-critical CEOs are, a study was conducted where the stock price of companies were examined before, during and after the unexpected death of a CEO. There was no impact. If these people were so impactful you'd think there would be a huge disruption or loss of value.

 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,222
23,964
Gotta be in it to win it
Comparing a guy running a company with tens of thousands of employees to a single person like an athlete or actor is weird. Tim could disappear for months on end and things will continue as if he was still there. None of the others would see the same results if the individual diasppeared.

Just to demonstrate how NON-critical CEOs are, a study was conducted where the stock price of companies were examined before, during and after the unexpected death of a CEO. There was no impact. If these people were so impactful you'd think there would be a huge disruption or loss of value.

Study was in 2013 and pre-pandemic. Everything has changed. But in some respects I agree, no one person in the company is indispensable.
 
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