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Apple CEO Tim Cook: 'I Don't Think a Four-Year Degree is Necessary to Be Proficient at Coding'
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if you can't comprehend software development, but somehow got through with your degree, it doesn't mean you're a good developer.
I know many developers with a high degree who put out trash code - and many with less, who are better developers, who have been developing their whole life.
Most non-technical well functioning ceo's knows this. It's common knowledge in the industry, unless your company is behind times.
I know many developers with a high degree who put out trash code - and many with less, who are better developers, who have been developing their whole life.
Most non-technical well functioning ceo's knows this. It's common knowledge in the industry, unless your company is behind times.
As a senior-level software developer pulling in a proper salary and involved in the hiring process, he's absolutely correct. I started coding as a child and learned almost everything I know from working. Competent development team managers are more concerned with what your portfolio looks like than what certifications you hold. Unfortunately, as can be seen from the countless snide comments from software "engineers" here, there is a strong institutionalized bias against people who have not attended indoctrination camp. Candidates without degrees are unlikely to survive the HR screening. Furthermore, even candidates with degrees from less prestigious institutions will face significant resistance. Make no mistake: degrees are a social tool designed to maintain the current social hierarchy, not hire based on skill.
Timmy's extent of caring about his laborers is if they can hit the suicide nets so they can be put back on the assembly line.
A coder is essentially the equivalent of a technician in engineering terms.
Sorry but a coder just like a technician needs direction.
An engineer or a computer scientist does not.
A simple example is the H.264 or H.265 algorithm for encoding or decoding video.
The engineer or computer scientist will have had the mat required to understand the algorithm and will be able to directly design hardware or write software to implement the algorithm.
The coder or technician will not have had the math and will need someone to digest the math and give direction on how to code up the algorithm.
Let's not be naive and think that a coding boot camp makes you a computer scientist.
I personally think it dangerous to think that someone that doesn't understand the operation of a computer can effectively write code for applications. It leads to bloated and buggy code.
Understanding data structures, hardware, etc. is necessary to write efficient and functional code.
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I disagree.
Understanding computer architecture and math are important.
As I stated before, if I give a person a complicated algorithm with summations and matrix math, I don't want to have to hold his/her hand. That is what distinguishes and coder from a software engineer or computer scientist.
You say "engineers".
Engineers graduate from ABET accredited schools that have requirements for overall technical abilities.
An "engineer would have had at least some chemistry, advanced math, physics and engineering courses.
For a software engineer or computer scientist, they will have more than a basic understanding logic design and computer architecture, etc.
Do you need that to crank code? Nope.
Do you need and understanding of computers and operating systems to write effective and efficient code? I think you do.
Once again, if I hand a person a piece of paper with a Sobel edge detection algorithm on it, I expect them to understand the math. That is the difference.
Sorry but a coder just like a technician needs direction.
An engineer or a computer scientist does not.
A simple example is the H.264 or H.265 algorithm for encoding or decoding video.
The engineer or computer scientist will have had the mat required to understand the algorithm and will be able to directly design hardware or write software to implement the algorithm.
The coder or technician will not have had the math and will need someone to digest the math and give direction on how to code up the algorithm.
Let's not be naive and think that a coding boot camp makes you a computer scientist.
I personally think it dangerous to think that someone that doesn't understand the operation of a computer can effectively write code for applications. It leads to bloated and buggy code.
Understanding data structures, hardware, etc. is necessary to write efficient and functional code.
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I disagree.
Understanding computer architecture and math are important.
As I stated before, if I give a person a complicated algorithm with summations and matrix math, I don't want to have to hold his/her hand. That is what distinguishes and coder from a software engineer or computer scientist.
You say "engineers".
Engineers graduate from ABET accredited schools that have requirements for overall technical abilities.
An "engineer would have had at least some chemistry, advanced math, physics and engineering courses.
For a software engineer or computer scientist, they will have more than a basic understanding logic design and computer architecture, etc.
Do you need that to crank code? Nope.
Do you need and understanding of computers and operating systems to write effective and efficient code? I think you do.
Once again, if I hand a person a piece of paper with a Sobel edge detection algorithm on it, I expect them to understand the math. That is the difference.
Very topical especially today. Exactly right that they are not listening to anyone. See how well it will be working out for them now that the trade war with China is on, and Tim Cook has not moved manufacturing out of China even though he had a 2.5 year warning from Trump.
By the way, Tim Cook never coded a damn thing.
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Zuk created a monster also known as the worst invention of the 21st century.
Bill dropped out when colleges didn’t yet teach computer science.
You make it seem like Apple is the only company affected here, by the tariffs. Trade wars hurt everybody including non-Apple products sold in the US.
Btw, do you have a citation that Cook never coded anything? Or is that your opinion?
Cook has a simple point here people: you don't NEED a college degree to be a great coder or make a living at it for that matter...he also makes an excellent point, that you could build this teaching into the elementary classrooms and in the future coding can become, well, elementary! Common Knowledge! This would be progress. He never said he was against a college degree.
And for all of you complaining about profit...who the hell doesn't want to make a profit? Have you noticed that Apple uses so much of their profit to expand? and create more jobs? I for one, am grateful.
And for all of you complaining about profit...who the hell doesn't want to make a profit? Have you noticed that Apple uses so much of their profit to expand? and create more jobs? I for one, am grateful.
Nobody is arguing that there aren't subsets of CS that require more specialized skills than others. Specialist career tracks are relatively uncommon though and bachelor's degrees aren't even advanced educational programs. You still need to be able to teach yourself advanced concepts to acquire advanced skills. I've aced multiple engineering courses at the top university in my state. I'm not magically qualified to write H.265 implementations now. Anyone going around acting like they are hot stuff for having a bachelor's is just delusional.
Timmy the Cook needs to define 'proficient' - given the declining quality of Apple software since iOS 8.
This is also a dubious statement from the CEO of a hardware company. Remember Apple has NEVER demonstrated making a profit on any single software product - EVER! Apple is NOT a software company.
His comment only demonstrates his own hubris and ignorance.
This is also a dubious statement from the CEO of a hardware company. Remember Apple has NEVER demonstrated making a profit on any single software product - EVER! Apple is NOT a software company.
His comment only demonstrates his own hubris and ignorance.
I'm a computer engineering student and in my school they teach broad subjects from the ground up. You'll get to learn basic programming, engineering methodology, operating systems, embedded systems, networks and the whole OSI stack, assembly programming (close to the metal), advanced programming, functional programming, databases, distributed systems and on top of that a whole bit of math, linear algebra, calculus in one and several variables, mathematical statistics and probability. Some other courses include software development, network security, ethical hacking etc.
My point being that I certainly would have a really hard time learning all of that by myself or earlier in school. I probably won't need a lot of it but if you're in to technology like I am and I bet a lot of you are, then it's a lot of fun to learn how things work.
To do coding can mean a lot of things. A lot of frameworks, libraries and IDEs make it super simple to get started by abstracting away a ton of really nitty gritty details. If you ever need to open the hood to customize anything and have no knowledge of how it does that, then you're going to have a really difficult time.
If by "coding" Tim means creating basic structure with basic UI elements and just calling already created methods by merely gluing them together then that is super simple. If however you need to customize some things, worry about concurrency, or do anything logically challenging then it really helps to have been trained to think logically as school helps you to.
My point being that I certainly would have a really hard time learning all of that by myself or earlier in school. I probably won't need a lot of it but if you're in to technology like I am and I bet a lot of you are, then it's a lot of fun to learn how things work.
To do coding can mean a lot of things. A lot of frameworks, libraries and IDEs make it super simple to get started by abstracting away a ton of really nitty gritty details. If you ever need to open the hood to customize anything and have no knowledge of how it does that, then you're going to have a really difficult time.
If by "coding" Tim means creating basic structure with basic UI elements and just calling already created methods by merely gluing them together then that is super simple. If however you need to customize some things, worry about concurrency, or do anything logically challenging then it really helps to have been trained to think logically as school helps you to.
That’s your anecdotal opinion.
The latest earnings call discussed revenue from the services sector. Are you saying they haven’t made a profit in the services sector?
In fact record revenues from services.
You completely miss my point.
An education in CS or Software Engineering teaches things you are not going to get in a coding boot camp.
Understanding the math under the hood for most things. Even something simple like a time value of money calculation can be extremely difficult if you haven't taken a higher level math class.
You might be able to code an interface with a cool IDE, etc., but you won't be able to code the engine.
The engine s where the real challenges are.
You might not be able to write an H.264 implementation, but if you took the math classes required for engineers, you could. The math for H.264 isn't that complicated falls into the range of math that just about any engineering student should understand.
But I digress. A 12 to 16 week coding boot camp does not make you a software engineer or computer scientist.
Is there a place for "coders"? Yes, but I would prefer to have someone that understands engineering.
A prime example is that of debug. Almost everyone that as taken college level science classes knows you only change a single variable when trying to analyze a problem. Someone that just codes may not have the analytic skill needed for debug.
Apple has never made a profit from developing a software product.
Your statement proves you don't understand the difference between software and services - AND - that selling software and "two minute diddies" created by other parties is not developing anything beyond an e-commerce service.
Yes, iOS and MacOS are operating systems software, but their primary purpose is to run Apple hardware.
But, the mention of services exposes additional proof Apple is tanking. As commodity hardware has improved to the point where Apple's can no longer differentiate their "High End" hardware in the market (to charge higher prices), services have become an increasingly important revenue stream. It has been perfectly acceptable (legal) for Apple to charge higher prices for its own hardware because obviously its THEIR hardware, but because software apps are developed by 3rd parties, Apple is in a pickle (legally) because they are forcing 3rd parties to sell through their store. The difference between dictating terms for your own product vs. other parties products is where Apple will run afoul of anti-trust law. Apple will try to use the "We provide a higher quality 'experience'" defense" (Apple's standard hardware 'schtick'), but it will fail because it is impossible to know if other stores can do better when Apple prevents such competition. BOOM! Apple looses the anti-trust ruling.
Mark my word: Whether an anti-trust case ultimately proceeds by the current customer class, or a developer (Apple, you cannot intimidate us forever), this is how Apple will eventually loose the anti-trust battle. Then they will go back to the dust bin they came from - which can't happen soon enough. Remember, the bigger you are (or your head is), the bigger the fall. We (small developers) were there for you when you needed us and it was a good time, but then you had to go and screw us. Now you can P1ZZ OFF!
You're playing pedantic word games. Services = software.
Now the "bigger they fall", you're right. Look at Samsung.
As far as who loses and who wins this trial. Didn't expect apple to win the facetime lawsuit. So we will see.
Incredible. Supposedly so educated but can't seem to grasp the endless possible ways one could learn math and other skills. It's just either code bootcamp or college to you. Never heard of tutoring? Libraries? Online courses? Night classes? And no, taking general engineering courses does not automatically make you qualified to professionally implement video codecs. Full stop. That's an oddly specific claim that obviously does not hold weight if you look at the coursework that universities generally have students do. Going to engineering school also doesn't make you qualified to do those coding tasks that you are acting snobbish about. I've seen a lot of bad code written by people with CS doctorates. There is a big difference between being able to write a killer scientific paper and being able to architect a maintainable software application that's to spec.
So the 16 year old goes to work for Apple at a decent salary but nothing like what they could make with a degree.
A lot of companies are doing this same thing. For example I do not have a degree but I have a lot of (useless) Microsoft, CompTIA, Cisco, etc. certifications and a lot of experience in network administration. I make a good salary but have been told that if I had a degree that I would have to go to work elsewhere as they wouldn't be able to pay me the kind of salary a degree plus certs and experience would bring.
So it's kind of a catch 22. You end up at a company for so long you don't really want to leave and "start over" again. Plus I really don't want to give up 5 weeks vacation.
A lot of companies are doing this same thing. For example I do not have a degree but I have a lot of (useless) Microsoft, CompTIA, Cisco, etc. certifications and a lot of experience in network administration. I make a good salary but have been told that if I had a degree that I would have to go to work elsewhere as they wouldn't be able to pay me the kind of salary a degree plus certs and experience would bring.
So it's kind of a catch 22. You end up at a company for so long you don't really want to leave and "start over" again. Plus I really don't want to give up 5 weeks vacation.
Excuse me, so deft that you don't know that education includes all of what you claim I missed.
Education is a general term and does not exclude tutoring, online or night courses.
All of those things fall under formal education. All of those things can forward a degree.
There are great schools that offer online coursework.
There is also on the job training, with most folks get anyway.
Also let's be real calculus and differential equations are challenging to those even in classes; so it would be a very, very small percentage of people that would be able to teach themselves the topics.
The same thing applies to most topics in chemistry physics and engineering.
Unless you can do the math, the actual subject is impossible.
Are there people that can educate themselves? Yes.
This is off topic. The topic was, do you need a degree to be a coder?
No you don't need a degree to be a coder.
You do need some additional education to be more than a coder.
If you want to call yourself a computer scientist of software engineer, you need the ancillary classes and degree.
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So the 16 year old goes to work for Apple at a decent salary but nothing like what they could make with a degree.
A lot of companies are doing this same thing. For example I do not have a degree but I have a lot of (useless) Microsoft, CompTIA, Cisco, etc. certifications and a lot of experience in network administration. I make a good salary but have been told that if I had a degree that I would have to go to work elsewhere as they wouldn't be able to pay me the kind of salary a degree plus certs and experience would bring.
So it's kind of a catch 22. You end up at a company for so long you don't really want to leave and "start over" again. Plus I really don't want to give up 5 weeks vacation.
THat's exactly what happens.
You hit a ceiling. It even happens with a degree.
There are titles at companies and you can never get without the paper.
At most companies, I've worked at you don't make Principal Engineer without a MS or Phd.
I got the advanced degree, because I knew the limitations without it.
Did I learn anything while getting it? Some, but I was working in industry on more advanced topics than were being taught in the classes.
There is the "Catch 22".
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If you believe Software == Services, then that belief exemplifies your narrow viewpoint of software.
But in your defense, Apple is trying to brain wash people into believing Software == Services. They need this belief to become pervasive because it will be more difficult to win the looming anti-trust action if Apple is seen to be harming competition in the market of 3rd party tangible products. The key point is 'tangible'. Apple needs people to believe the App Store is just a service that provides access to a set of functionalities 'accessed' via their platform. This why they so desperately are pushing subscription app pricing, and have never implemented paid upgrades for apps. This also why Timmy the Crook gave Uber a pass on its flagrant violations of App Store privacy policy. Uber is a service, their app makes cars show up to drive you somewhere - so users loose sight of the fact that the app itself is a tangible item (and it really isn't compared to the driving service). This perception then ends up skewing viewpoints (such as your own) of all apps. This creates problems for apps that do not merely support some service. The best example of a pure software apps are apps like photoshop. Where would Adobe be if Apple had control over how they sold Photoshop (and all their other products) from version 1.0 onward?
Yes, this may seem to be nuance, but now that we're this far along I can see Apple's strategy was deliberate all along. Their only mistake is believing non-service industry apps could be viable using the idiotic revenue models Apple has forced in the App Store. Maybe (probably) they've known all along their revenue models wouldn't work for non-service apps, but if so they've either followed the course they've taken out of protecting a monopoly, or just plain ignorance of creating profitable software products. I'm guessing both.
Totally get it. You’re “opinion”, which is a rant is right and others’ opinions are wrong.
Yup, you're wrong. I can't bring my 2010 MacBook Pro into an Apple store and walk out with a 2018 MacBook Pro for no cost.
Yet that's the pricing model Apple forces on Software vendors.
One thing you cannot deny: The anti-trust action is proceeding.
Sure, it’s processing but one never knows what the judicial system will decide. I would be surprised if Apple loses...but you never know.