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I agree. Having just graduated with a BS Degree, I felt the first two years of programming courses were just review for me and most of my classmates...Still, I'm glad I have this piece of paper for when I'm looking for work.

That’s my experience in almost every field. It’s been a long-running punchline amongst management and the willfully uneducated that a college degree often isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on and there are loads of people with PhDs flipping burgers (though the rest of the sentiment usually missing is, good luck even getting a job flipping burgers without one). As an employer, I’ve seen 25 years of top of their class designers and architects interview who don’t know the first thing about how buildings are constructed, how to use CAD, how building approval processes work, or how a business makes money and limits risk. And when we do hire one, they’re frustrated in six weeks, because they realize they’ll never do anything that resembles what they did in school. It’s an industry-wide problem.

...It’s a nationwide problem that post-war, the US retooled education itself as job-skills training programs, and thus set an expectation. Consider the sizable and continual investments made by decent companies in their employees worker training programs 2 generations ago, which has all but disappeared. ...employers were able to cheap out and rely on colleges to train their employers, so that’s what we now expect.

I’m back at the university now, pursuing another degree, and every time I ask about getting into anything beyond the most basic skill set, it’s explained that an undergrad degree doesn’t qualify or prepare you for professional work like that. You have to continue to grad school if you want to get into anything serious. It’s a convenient way of upselling your students, but I sat down with the program counselor and looked ahead through the degree’s courses, and they’re right. A few years ago, I went to a 2yr tech school to learn a rare discipline, and we learned and practiced more (& held to a much higher standard) in one semester than I will even touch on in all 4 years at this state university. And yet the 2yr degree is considered not worth mentioning, and 4 year degree is considered essential. I don’t know where these perceptions in HR departments is coming from at this point, but it’s pure nonsense. Universities are cranking out a fresh batch of graduates every year with essentially long high-school level educations, and their employers aren’t spending squat on their further training, & just replacing them as fast as we can. Meanwhile, tech colleges are actually offering in-depth quality education people should be getting, but it’s minimized to specialties.

It’s pure dysfunction.
 
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A lot of companies you can't even get your resume past HR without a degree for any IT area let alone middle management.

- Degree
- Diversity
- Experience

I have been on the hiring team with 3 different companies and each provided very similar guidelines.
 
If one can operate a nuclear power plant and make over 6 figures without any college degree, why would a degree be needed to write code? And one doesn’t just get magically proficient by getting a degree or getting a license to operate a reactor either.
 
If one can operate a nuclear power plant and make over 6 figures without any college degree, why would a degree be needed to write code? And one doesn’t just get magically proficient by getting a degree or getting a license to operate a reactor either.
You need a license to operate a nuclear reactor but one is normally not needed to work as a software developer.
 
Why not? That’s how I learned. I’ve taught 8 year old girls to code in swift. It’s not rocket science.

No, it is not rocket science. But it does require some amount of intellect as well as the drive to learn (especially if one is self-teaching).

All I can say is, check out the achievement levels of the average high school grad. Back in the day, we would say "they cannot even figure out how to balance a checkbook." Whatever the equivalent is today, it holds true.
 
- Degree
- Diversity
- Experience

I have been on the hiring team with 3 different companies and each provided very similar guidelines.


How do they quantify diversity? Is that essentially anyone who is non-white male or different variations of race and sex?
 
No, it is not rocket science. But it does require some amount of intellect as well as the drive to learn (especially if one is self-teaching).

All I can say is, check out the achievement levels of the average high school grad. Back in the day, we would say "they cannot even figure out how to balance a checkbook." Whatever the equivalent is today, it holds true.

I see lots of smart high school kids. Not sure what you are trying to prove, but whatever.
 
It's true, I dropped out during my second semester of computer science but after I was fortunate enough to get my first job with an employer who was willing to give me the chance to prove myself, I've only ever had a single potential employer dismiss me based on my lack of formal education. No other employer or recruiter has ever cared about that, even when my work experience was shorter than a formal education would've been.

Tim should maybe tell his HR department that, since Apple still requires at least a 4 year degree for programming jobs.

"BS / MS / Ph.D in EE or CS is required"

https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/details/200028677/software-engineer-embedded-and-low-level-programming

Well, that's a pretty advanced software engineering job you cherry-picked. Cook simply said "coding". Here they're looking for a coder where the requirement is "BS in Computer Science or equivalent industry experience": https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/detail...-angular-css3-apple-media-products?team=SFTWR

I guess you could think of being a music artist in the same way

Anyone can learn to play the guitar and sing with practice, but to write lyrics and compose music takes more knowledge

Yeah, and that's why every successful song writer in the history of popular music has a minimum of 4 years of education in literature or music production...... Oh, wait...
 
I guess you could think of being a music artist in the same way

Anyone can learn to play the guitar and sing with practice, but to write lyrics and compose music takes more knowledge
Actually, it takes more than just knowledge. It also takes talent!
 
Right mr cook, so where are your programs/components/modules so we can see them?
 
Why not? That’s how I learned. I’ve taught 8 year old girls to code in swift. It’s not rocket science.
Coding may mean many things. Simple coding is simple but I think you will agree that there is a huge difference between what these 8 year old girls and experienced software developers can do. Besides, very often "coding" requires decent knowledge of the specific area(for example, CAD, VLSI etc.). I am not sure what Cook's point was but I do not think he was arguing that college education is not useful for software designers.
 
Please learn the history of Steve Jobs... he could actually code and put hardware together, certainly far more than Tim Apple ever can or will.
"He did not know technology. He’d never designed anything as a hardware engineer, and he didn’t know software."
https://www.i-programmer.info/news/...wozniak-on-education-engineering-a-apple.html

In 1973, Steve Wozniak designed his own version of the classic video game Pong. After finishing it, Wozniak gave the board to Jobs, who then took the game down to Atari, Inc. in Los Gatos, California. Atari thought that Jobs had built it and gave him a job as a technician.​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Pre-Apple

When Jobs worked for Atari and was assigned the Breakout design, he talked Woz into doing it-- even though Woz was actually working for HP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakout_(video_game)
 
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Please learn the history of Steve Jobs... he could actually code and put hardware together, certainly far more than Tim Apple ever can or will.
You don’t know that or if you do please cite that fact.

An engineer should be able to code and put hardware together. But it’s not about comparing two ceos with different qualities. It’s about what each brought/brings to the table.
 
You need a license to operate a nuclear reactor but one is normally not needed to work as a software developer.

I agree. But you’d don’t need a 4 year degree to get a reactor operator license. A lot more responsibility operating a nuclear reactor vs doing code. And it doesn’t take a 4 year degree to get a operators license. I got mine with zero college credits.
 
Coding may mean many things. Simple coding is simple but I think you will agree that there is a huge difference between what these 8 year old girls and experienced software developers can do. Besides, very often "coding" requires decent knowledge of the specific area(for example, CAD, VLSI etc.). I am not sure what Cook's point was but I do not think he was arguing that college education is not useful for software designers.

Yes, there is a big difference, but by the time the 8 year olds are done with high school, they will be very good coders, with a strong fundamental understanding of computational theory, algorithms, and data structures, strong proficiency in whatever the language of the day is, and the ability to learn new languages easily.
 
I think he's right, but it doesn't mean getting a degree in computer science is useless.
When I started my degree in CS I was already able to code, I started for fun with Basic while I was 12 and went on with VB and some C as well.
I remember only a couple of courses about coding, one about assembly I loved and helped me a lot understanding how stuff works under the hood, but I wouldn't say it should be mandatory for a good developer.
What CS taught me was about algorithms, operating systems, maths and a lot of theory that sometimes helps me in my job.
I met some really good developers without a CS degree, and some folks, even with good marks, got their degree and are not really able to code or to use a shell etc., they're good at theory but not at using a PC.
Experience is more important than a degree in this field, especially when most of the stuff you work on doesn't require you to have knowledge of maths or physics.
My advice is to get a degree if possible, but to build apps or websites on your own while you study so you get to code a lot and you're more prepared for your future assignments.
 
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