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The reality is that the USA isn't really a major contributor to the alleged human involvement in global warming, countries like China are far worse, but even they are trying to improve.

And yes, global temperatures may be rising, but really there is A LOT of room for debate as to how much is caused by us humans and how much is cyclic in nature. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to treat our planet better, we absolutely should. But trying to say we need to limit to a certain temperature rise is not the best way to go about it and I would imagine that is why Trump is considering pulling out of it. Instead we should focus on all of the other economic and environmental benefits of switching to renewable energy and what we can do to reduce or eliminate our use of fossil fuels because there will be a point where we WILL run out of them, as they are nonrenewable.
I agree that it's hard to tell how much of an impact man is having vs. a natural cycle, but I do know that we aren't helping matters. As for your other points, a lot of businesses thought it would help America by pushing us not only to more renewable resources, but also natural gas which is cleaner (although I have some issues with how some of it is obtained through fracking and the impacts to local water supplies and related earthquakes). Even companies like Exxon and Conoco have said numerous times that they support it. For those reasons and more it seems crazy to me that Trump would suddenly break the agreement and make America look so awful when literally the rest of the world is also signed on. Nobody will trust us again to keep our word.
 
It was a choice between bad and worse. Some chose bad, and the others chose worse. As a matter of who won, heck, they both did. She got more popular votes, and he got more electoral ones.
Popular vote doesn't matter. People as a whole vote for teams and that's all it's ever been. It's not a high school election. Trump won, like it or not.

You are right though, people chose the lesser of 2 evils. Still evil, regardless.
 
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The Ozarks is my stomping grounds; the University of Oklahoma is school. And thank you!

Never been chasing in the Ozarks...I'm more than a little afraid to. It's dangerous even by chasing standards.
Yeah, just don't do it, lol. The storms usually come later in the day when it's getting dark, too many visibility obstructions, and it seems like they're often rain wrapped. It was a really dumb thing to do. I do web and app design, web development and photography at Mizzou and work next to the atmospheric sciences department, which is why I was asking. Oklahoma is a good choice there. In high school I wanted to do meteorology but wasn't confident in my ability to handle the higher level math courses. At the time I was deciding between Norman and Penn State. Ended up going to community college for a bit and then Missouri State for design, photography and marketing, lol. Good luck! I've considered adding a meteorology degree since I get 75% of tuition at work, so that might be in my future.
 
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What do you mean by give you back your share of the Wall Street bailout?

I'm pretty sure I know what you're (generally) referring to when you refer to the Wall Street bailout, a bit of a misnomer though that reference is. But it sounds as though you think those programs ended up contributing to our debt, i.e. costing taxpayer money?

If that's what you mean, then that's not really correct. TARP as a whole will likely end up costing a relatively small amount of money (considering the original size of the program) - $10 or 20 billion. But that won't come from the programs that might be thought of as the Wall Street bailout. Taxpayers have come out ahead on the bank programs. There were some small loses from assistance provided to smaller banks, but those losses were more than offset by gains from the larger banks. We're around $25 billion in the black when it comes to the latter. We're even in the black with regard to AIG if you include the money we received for the non-TARP AIG shares we got in connection with the assistance provided to it by the Federal Reserve.

Where we've taken losses is from the auto industry program (mostly from the GM/UAW assistance) and the programs which provided assistance to homeowners (e.g. HAMP). Basically, the gains we made through the bank programs (and the AIG assistance) covered all of what we lost through the auto industry program and around half of what we lost through the homeowners assistance programs.
You are correct, but I would still like my Iraq War money back.
 
1. Define the “correct” temperature range for the planet.

2. Define the “correct” humidity range for the planet.

3. Define the “correct” mean sea level for the planet.

4. Define the “correct” amount of precipitation for the planet.

5. Define the “correct” makeup of the atmosphere.

6. Define the “correct” amount of sea ice at the N/S poles.

7. Define/explain past glaciation and subsequent warming without any input from humans.
 
Um.. You have no idea what you're talking about do you? None of those are 100 percent subsidized by the government. They ALSO paid the LOAN they were given by the government back, and not only paid it BACK but also paid it back early. That doesn't fit your agenda though, does it?

these profitless companies are MORE then 100% financed by the government:
billions of dollars of tax incentives, billions of dollars in government contracts, billions of dollars of grants from the Treasury Department, billions of dollars of environmental credits, billions of dollars in property taxes, billions of dollars of economic subsidies and billions of dollars in federal and state tax breaks and credits.

your love Elon milks the USA taxpayers to the bone to finance profitless companies to sell $100k cars to millionaires and rebranded solar panels imported from china

he is standing straight only due to the United States taxpayer money

after figuring out he could not outsmart the current president into stupid deals he left

thank you leach Elon, don't let the door hit you on your way out !!!!

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html
 
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Also, the universe is anything but "total order and harmony."
I know, right? Have you ever met a democrat? :)

After Kyoto there was a group of 31,000 scientist who did not agree that there was any real concrete data supporting man made global warming.

http://www.petitionproject.org/gw_article/Review_Article_HTML.php
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1. Define the “correct” temperature range for the planet.

2. Define the “correct” humidity range for the planet.

3. Define the “correct” mean sea level for the planet.

4. Define the “correct” amount of precipitation for the planet.

5. Define the “correct” makeup of the atmosphere.

6. Define the “correct” amount of sea ice at the N/S poles.

7. Define/explain past glaciation and subsequent warming without any input from humans.
We know hay no one will answer these. I love the list though.
 
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I argue, you follow science religiously, it's a belief system based on the notion that God and consciousness does not exist. All modern "science" rest on this fundamental concept and studies and concepts that challenge this are by default shunned and thrown on the garbage heap. Along with the heretics that dare to propound them.

I argue, the universe is designed, design implicate consciousness or a designer, I say that is a more rational standpoint than stating that something came from almost nothing, for the sake of argument. It doesn't make the _model_ less silly.
It is literally impossible to follow science "religiously", that would defy the basic tenants of the scientific method. There are, however, no standards for religious belief, which is probably why hundreds of religions all disparage each other as "Heresy".

It is not a belief system based on the notion that "God and consciousness" do not exist, where did you hear that? Science should have nothing to do with religion, it is based on the scientific method. By definition, you cannot draw a "supernatural" conclusion from "natural" premises. "Faith-based" is just that, it means you have no evidence, but you're good with that. You "believe" the universe is "designed", yet you have no objective, empirical evidence to support this belief. Is your argument "more rational"?, of course not, all rational arguments place the burden of proof on the positive, and as well as having no evidence, you dismiss, out if hand, established, evidence-based scientific conclusions, you may "Say" it is "more rational", but that does not make it so.

If your argument is "I don't know where things came from, it must be a God/Designer" than you haven't really explained anything, have you? That's not even really a coherent argument. Why would you find a singularity (please review the definition of a 'singularity' when you have an opportunity, it is not "almost nothing") less plausible than a being, ostensibly humanoid in form (a form which has only existed for roughly the most recent 200,000 years, which is a little bit late to the party), with the ability to create that singularity, or at least its purported results? it is an order of magnitude less plausible than the singularity. You're just reiterating the "First Cause" argument which the Greeks came up with. See any Greek Gods around these days?

Even the Vatican Science Office acknowledges the Big Bang these days, are you any more devout or informed than they are?

I respect your First amendment right to believe anything you want to, and I applaud your welcoming this discussion. It's when public policy is shaped by irrational beliefs, that I become concerned, because that is the same thinking which brought us the Inquisition, placed Galileo under house arrest for 300 years because he posited that the earth revolved around the Sun, and any other number of atrocities.

If you feel so strongly that "Science" is bad, feel free to renounce and discontinue using everything it has provided to you: your phone, computer and telecommunications for a start, modern medicine, your car, your genome, etc., because these things were brought about by people asking questions, not dogmatically assuming they, or their surrogate deities had all the answers.
 
these profitless companies are MORE then 100% financed by the government:
billions of dollars of tax incentives, billions of dollars in government contracts, billions of dollars of grants from the Treasury Department, billions of dollars of environmental credits, billions of dollars in property taxes, billions of dollars of economic subsidies and billions of dollars in federal and state tax breaks and credits.

your love Elon milks the USA taxpayers to the bone to finance profitless companies to sell $100k cars to millionaires and rebranded solar panels imported from china

he is standing straight only due to the United States taxpayer money

after figuring out he could not outsmart the current president into stupid deals he left

thank you leach Elon, don't let the door hit you on your way out !!!!

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

Bingo. Elon musk is just a frontman for the "agenda". Tesla cars are pure garbage and the company makes no money at all. They are completely propped up by the US taxpayers. I have to give them credit though. It's quite ballsy to create a fake company and use that as a vehicle to push your agenda. Very ballsy. Not working though, the scam is well known and Tesla cars are a pure joke.
 
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Bingo. Elon musk is just a frontman for the "agenda". Tesla cars are pure garbage and the company makes no money at all. They are completely propped up by the US taxpayers. I have to give them credit though. It's quite ballsy to create a fake company and use that as a vehicle to push your agenda. Very ballsy. Not working though, the scam is well known and Tesla cars are a pure joke.

Have you driven one? Faster to 60 than any production car in the world.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/new-tesla-model-s-now-quickest-production-car-world


I have an original Model S and it is 5 years old and has 60K miles. I've haven't spent a penny on maintenance expect for tires and wipers and have saved thousands of dollars that I would have spent on gas.

As for tax credits, they are offered to all manufacturers and is a credit to the buyer and not Tesla. GM Bolt and Nissan Leaf buyers also happily take advantage of the same credit.

https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-ins-and-outs-of-electric-vehicle-tax-credits.html

As for any government (DOE) loans, Tesla paid it back in 2010 while Ford, which was a much larger loan, still hasn't paid it back.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannm...ment-loan-before-moving-small-cars-to-mexico/

If you're against any government subsidies in general, the electric vehicle industry gets a fraction of what the fossil fuel industry gets ($5T worth) today in subsidies.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...cost-5-trillion-annually-and-worsen-pollution

Tesla cars are expensive but so were HDTVs and other technologies when the first came out. The initial models usually are targeted at high end buyers to build volume so they can be offered to mid range and eventually low end buyers. This is exactly how the iPhone market expanded.

Tesla will start selling a $35K 200+ mile EV next month to make it more affordable to a larger market.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/13/...release-date-unveiling-elon-musk-electric-car

They have received 400k deposits for it so the demand is there.

http://fortune.com/2016/04/15/tesla-model-3-reservations-400000/
 
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these profitless companies are MORE then 100% financed by the government:
billions of dollars of tax incentives, billions of dollars in government contracts, billions of dollars of grants from the Treasury Department, billions of dollars of environmental credits, billions of dollars in property taxes, billions of dollars of economic subsidies and billions of dollars in federal and state tax breaks and credits.

your love Elon milks the USA taxpayers to the bone to finance profitless companies to sell $100k cars to millionaires and rebranded solar panels imported from china

he is standing straight only due to the United States taxpayer money

after figuring out he could not outsmart the current president into stupid deals he left

thank you leach Elon, don't let the door hit you on your way out !!!!

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html
"your" Elon Musk? He isn't "mine" and I have already explained to you, that he's already paid back the LOAN they were given, and not only paid it back, they paid it back EARLY, several years in fact. I don't know how you consider that 100 percent subsidized. That's just....odd.
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Land doesn't vote, except in the Senate.
[doublepost=1496414852][/doublepost]
Jesus.
??
 
Can you explain why your "creator" did it in the first place?

For the same reason you do things, out of free will.
We don't know, and people far above our pay grade will always be trying to find out. Until then, they're not going to listen to what a book says happened without evidence.

You don't know? Explain to me how belief in the big bang _theory_ is different from belief in God? The _theory_ is unprovable and thus on the same level as religious dogma.

Judging from the answers you and fellow commenters didn't listen to the TED talk by Rupert Sheldrake where he addresses this exact logical fallacy in the scientific community. Here it is again:

It is literally impossible to follow science "religiously", that would defy the basic tenants of the scientific method. There are, however, no standards for religious belief, which is probably why hundreds of religions all disparage each other as "Heresy".

Same answer there as above. As explained in the vid above, science don't follow the basic tenants of the scientific method and thus both the so-called scientists and their followers end up staunch believers in a mechanistic cosmological model that excludes God and consciousness. I'd say that is the purpose the model was created in the first place.
By definition, you cannot draw a "supernatural" conclusion from "natural" premises..

And yet, that is exactly what "science" do by saying there is no such thing as "supernatural" in the creation at all. We are all biological machines with no other purpose than enjoying our sense of sight, smell, touch, hearing and taste until the machine falls apart.
If your argument is "I don't know where things came from, it must be a God/Designer" than you haven't really explained anything, have you?

Well, it isn't.
That's not even really a coherent argument. Why would you find a singularity (please review the definition of a 'singularity' when you have an opportunity, it is not "almost nothing") less plausible than a being, ostensibly humanoid in form.

That is my point, it all boils down to exchanging God for a singularity. You have blind faith in a, in my opinion, bad theory.
Even the Vatican Science Office acknowledges the Big Bang these days, are you any more devout or informed than they are?

Don't put your trust in a gang of pedofiles, it never ends well.
I respect your First amendment right to believe anything you want to, and I applaud your welcoming this discussion. It's when public policy is shaped by irrational beliefs, that I become concerned, because that is the same thinking which brought us...

I respect yours and your conclusions as well. Now, your blind faith in scientists brings you Globalism. The end result will be the same.
If you feel so strongly that "Science" is bad, feel free to renounce and discontinue using everything it has provided to you.

If you feel strongly that God is bad, feel free to stop using the body, mind and soul that He gave you and renounce the Creation and everything it provides you.

You see. Your are no less religious than me. However, you cannot explain consciousness, in fact your science religion denounces its existence completely, yet the fact that you are conscious makes you very different from dead matter. Without it you couldn't even have this discussion.

God bless.
 
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If you feel strongly that God is bad, feel free to stop using the body, mind and soul that He gave you and renounce the Creation and everything it provides you.

There's no good god or bad god in my life - there's no such thing as a god period. There are several nations such as Nigeria or Somalia on the brink of famine as we speak. What does your god provide them? Does he have a preference for western countries? After giving them body, mind and soul, perhaps he got tired and thought ahh the hell with them!...

You see. Your are no less religious than me. However, you cannot explain consciousness, in fact your science religion denounces its existence completely, yet the fact that you are conscious makes you very different from dead matter. Without it you couldn't even have this discussion.

You keep referring to science as a form of religion. You don't have "faith" in science. You don't "believe" in science - despite your continous attemps at debunking what science really is. Science accepts mistakes, trial and error, until proof is made. You keep looking until you find the answer. That's the complete opposite of "faith". Faith is the easy way out for people who desperately need an answer to "why?".
 
You don't know? Explain to me how belief in the big bang _theory_ is different from belief in God? The _theory_ is unprovable and thus on the same level as religious dogma.
In science, theory means something that’s solidly true but not (yet, sometimes) solid enough to be a law. The Big Bang will likely never be a law because there are many other possibilities for how we came to be, including many we haven’t yet thought of, let alone examined, that could also be true or partially true. Likewise, the Big Bang may be partially false (though it’s provably on the right track).

Provably: We know there was a singularity containing all the mass and energy in the Universe over 13 billion years ago. We also know that the Universe expanded from that singularity, and we know it’s still expanding today (albeit far more slowly).

As for where the singularity came from and what caused the expansion? We don’t know. We might never know. We just admit that.
 
God bless.
The problem seems to be, that you have no idea of how to construct a sentence, let alone an argument. Peppering your response with "Glittering Generalities" does not make your response any more compelling.

You might educate yourself on rational arguments and how they are constructed.

You also might explore how science, not "science" is actually done. Keep in mind that scientific understanding is always changing as new evidence becomes known, it is not fixed canon as religion is.

I've never used any of the "god-made" parts of my body, because there aren't any.

Oh, and thanks for the blessing from the non-existent being, the Singularity says "Hi".
 
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In science, theory means something that’s solidly true but not (yet, sometimes) solid enough to be a law. The Big Bang will likely never be a law because there are many other possibilities for how we came to be, including many we haven’t yet thought of, let alone examined, that could also be true or partially true. Likewise, the Big Bang may be partially false (though it’s provably on the right track).

Provably: We know there was a singularity containing all the mass and energy in the Universe over 13 billion years ago. We also know that the Universe expanded from that singularity, and we know it’s still expanding today (albeit far more slowly).

As for where the singularity came from and what caused the expansion? We don’t know. We might never know. We just admit that.
We do not KNOW that all the mass existed in a singularity.
 
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Provably: We know there was a singularity containing all the mass and energy in the Universe over 13 billion years ago. We also know that the Universe expanded from that singularity, and we know it’s still expanding today (albeit far more slowly).
I believe it has been observed to be accelerating.
 
I believe it has been observed to be accelerating.
Accelerating, yes, but still far more slowly than at first.

We do not KNOW that all the mass existed in a singularity.
Yes, we do. The entire universe was in the singularity. The universe is an isolated thermodynamic system (the only isolated system to exist), which means mass can’t enter or leave the universe.
 
Please provide proof of this. Real proof.
The entire Universe, ignoring the multiverse idea, encompasses all that is and ever was and will be and therefore has no boundary through which energy and matter can pass. Therefore, it’s an isolated system since nothing can enter or leave something without a boundary. This is the current prevailing understanding of our universe as a thermodynamic system.

If there is somehow definitive proof of another universe—proof of the “multiverse”—we will have to reconsider the boundaries of our own universe, where ours ends and where another begins.

If our universe is an isolated system among multiple universes, we will never find out if there’s another universe since we’ll have absolutely no known physical way to tell. This question likely won’t be answered until long after we’re all long gone.
 
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I think we all have made our positions in this matter clear. I respect yours and thank you for allowing me to express mine. Here is some soft non-commercial music for ya'll to relax to.

 
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