"Dodgy." You're cracking people up this morning. LOL. That's exactly what Apple did that people don't understand. Apple paid taxes on the 13 billion, in fact at a higher rate than they would have in the EU, because the revenue was primarily earned in the US. Your Apple jealousy is blinding you; even the EU Commission just recently acknowledged that if Apple paid taxes on it in the US they would now have to take that into account. LOL.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple CFO Luca Maestri to Lead Challenge Against Irish Tax Ruling in Luxembourg Court This Week
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
"Dodgy." You're cracking people up this morning. LOL. That's exactly what Apple did that people don't understand. Apple paid taxes on the 13 billion, in fact at a higher rate than they would have in the EU, because the revenue was primarily earned in the US. Your Apple jealousy is blinding you; even the EU Commission just recently acknowledged that if Apple paid taxes on it in the US they would now have to take that into account. LOL.
Citation for what part of my post, that Apple already transferred money to an escrow or Ireland getting less subsidies/money?
Just 1 store? Lol. So apple wants us to believe those 6000 employees and that one store is producing enough revenue to owe $15 billion in back taxes.
You've got it all backwards. It's not Apple that believes it owes billions in back taxes, it's the elites running the EU. You're making the same points Apple has.
Where did you get the figure of 12.5%? Estonian companies pay 0% tax on profit, the Hungarian CIT rate is 9%, etc.
This really isn't difficult if you understand how the EU operates. There is a budget set each year and each member state pays into it according to its means. Ireland is a net beneficiary in that it receives more Euros in EU subsidies and benefits than it pays into the EU pot. By agreeing a special tax rate with Apple not available to other companies (the nub of the EU complaint), Ireland has seen fit to understate its reported income by the €14bn or so in the full knowledge that that particular shortfall would be made good by EU subsidies. In other words, taxpayers in net contributory countries like France, Germany, NL, the UK etc have been subsidising Apple shareholders. Whatever Apple doesn't pay into the Irish state coffers is paid by the rest of the EU, so no wonder Ireland is "happy" with its own tax arrangements.
Just for the record, these are the 2018 reported GDPs per capita:
Ireland-----€65,500
Germany---€40,900
France------€35,500
NL----------€44,800
UK----------€36,000
So much for poor little countries struggling beside bigger neighbours.
I think you’ll find that Ireland since 2016 is a net contributor to the EU rather than a beneficiary. Not bad for an island with a population less than half of Paris and its suburbs.
Problem is that this wasn't over a company-specific deal hidden from the EU, but instead it was over something in the public Belgian tax code and available to every company that operated out of the country.
In other words; When you're a state in the EU you have to treat every company equally tax-wise. Company specific deals like the one Apple got, knowing full well that it was illegal, are not legal unless pre-approved by the EU because they qualify as market-skewing state aid to said company.
But hey, let's not let little pesky things like facts get in the way of worshiping a multi-billion dollar multinational that relies on companies that treat their employees so badly they have to set up suicide nets to stop their employees from killing themselves.
Last edited:
I think you will find that this action goes back to when Ireland was dipping its hand in the EU coffers. Suddenly after it tore up this dodgy deal with Apple it moved (just) into the net payers' league. Funny how that works.
‘follows the law’ is not the same as looking for loopholes or settling disputes outside a courtroom. If you are not convicted it does not mean it’s legal.
E.g. google used the same (tax)evasion scheme in Ireland, has been charged and recently settled outside court.
Apple will follow.
Apple has an Irish holding company with no operations or employees at the top of its foreign operations. This company also serves as a group finance company. Apple Inc., the U.S. parent of the whole group, pays U.S. tax on the investment earnings of this company. Otherwise, the holding company pays no tax to any government, and has not paid tax for five years. It claims tax residence nowhere.
Sorry to exhume this - just back from work trip - but this above is nonsense.
There was a good reason Ireland was “dipping its hand” back then that has absolutely nothing to do with the Apple arrangement...namely the 2008 global financial meltdown that ripped the so-called Celtic Tiger economy to shreds. The turnaround into growth in less than a decade is notable, whilst the likes of Greece and Spain are still on their knees.
Not only is it not nonsense, it is a fact. Ireland was a net recipient throughout the whole tax scandal until it finally closed that loophole. You will also note that the global meltdown hit just about every industrialised nation hard except Australia, which had taken sensible precautions beforehand, so I am not sure what point you think you are making there.
I mean there are various levels of nonsense in the thread. But if by Ireland 'dipping its hand in the EU coffers' you are referring to the EU bailout of Irish banks after the 2008 crash you are so far the mark its not funny. The ECB forced this bailout on Ireland to prevent contagion to other countries https://www.businessinsider.com/her...ced-ireland-to-ask-for-a-bailout-2014-11?IR=T. They shafted the Irish public with private debt in the process - something which the Irish public is still laboured with and they estimate the cost to the Irish publci by the end of 2018 was €41billion and climbing: https://www.independent.ie/business...to-bailout-aib-new-report-warns-38547803.html
So basically the Irish tax payer took one for the team and continues to do so for all of Europe on the bailout topic. Sometimes I wonder is this why the EU is so firmly backing Ireland in Brexit negotiations - but thats a topic for another day.
As to the Apple thing. This is quite complicated. Ireland has got stick unfairly at times as a 'tax haven' because various companies seemd to be paying little tax in Ireland. It seems to be grossly ignored that the same thing was happening in other European countries like Luxembourg and the Netherlands to name 2, and it also seems to be ignored that these schemes were cooked up by highly paid tax accountants who found ways to play the rules of different countries off each other. But thats a side point. The reason the EU has come after Apple/Ireland for the 13 billion stand apart from this. They aledge that Ireland gave Apple special examptions from Irish tax laws outside of the schemes the clever accountants came up with that other companeis in Ireland didn't receive. Did they? Nobody actually knows for sure because dealings between companies and the Irish tax authorities are kept secret. So there is not real proof either way. Personally however, I do think the numbers are fairly suspicious and Ireland should collect the 13billion from Apple - it might help with the €41billion debt Ireland incurred on Europes behalf for one thing. But I think most Irish people would like to see the international companies paying the same taxes as smaller companies that can't get up to these shenanigans - but the government in Ireland is probably close to the US republicans in terms of being 'pro-business' (definitely not in other ways!) so thats unlikely to happen short of a change in government.
For the last time, I meant Ireland was a net recipient of the annual EU pot that every member contributes to. And yes, the EU forced Ireland to don sackcloth and ashes over its banking fiasco. Pretty harshly, too. Iceland had the right idea. It jailed those bank bosses.
If you look at the total taxes that Ireland had waived under that sweetheart scheme between Apple and the Irish govt. (and made good by taxpayers in the rest of the EU) then the 6,000-odd jobs that came out of it seem to be pretty poor value for money. It would have been cheaper for the EU to have paid those employees to stay at home on full pay.
Greece, Italy etc have other serious issues apart from the global market crash that Ireland didn't share.
Ok what do you mean 'made good by taxpayers in the rest of the EU' ?
Edit: If you mean other EU countries some how compensated for the 13billion Ireland didn't take from Apple - thats not how it works. That money would never have been collected in the other 27 countries anyhow. Its purely a loss to Irish finances. And like I don't agree with personally. I know of Irish tech firms that closed down during the relevant time periods because they could not compete with the internationals - now we know why I guess?
Last edited:
You are correct but you need to finish that trail to its ultimate conclusion. What Ireland doesn't collect, shows up in its state finances. That shortfall was a significant part of its budget and therefore Ireland ended up being a net recipient from the annual EU budget. When the loophole was closed in 2015, Ireland moved towards being a net payer. It's as simple as that. Not only were the other EU countries deprived of that that tax revenue but so was Ireland, which meant the other EU taxpayers were subsidising Apple shareholders and that is why there was international anger towards this very dodgy deal.
Whether Ireland received those revenues from Apple or the EU was immaterial to Ireland. It got paid. However, it meant other EU countries were paying for Ireland's largesse.
Ehhh no its nothing like that. There were many reasons why Ireland moved from net receiver to net payer. Ireland was bascially a second world country well into the 80's. The country only started to change significantly in the mid 1990s. There was a widespread economic boom from about 1995 to 2008, arguably another one since 2012 onwards. THere was peace established in Northern Ireland in the mid 1990s leading to further widespread changes. All of these things had economnic impacts. Your assertion that Ireland only became a net contributor after closing a tax loophoole in 2015 is utternyl bogus. It had been planned for some years that IReland would become a net congtributor then - closing that tax law was not planned similarly and only done under more recent (at the time) pressure. Correlation does not equal causation my friend.
This is a very misquoted stat that even Ireland knows distorts the appeared income per person in Ireland. This number is heavily inflated due to the amount of companies declaring income in Ireland and in reality this is not paid to individuals. The average person in Ireland sits around the middle of income in Europe.