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Great solution for those trouble users. I don't see why you should waste anymore time.

Which is unfortunately why I've chosen to killfile a very select few unreasonable individuals on MacRumors. Anyone interested in the basis as to why are invited to go do an Advanced Search and read the archives.

I've been putting off getting a basic Kill-a-Watt meter for sometime. With an efficient power supply and plenty of vendors going cool and "green" you're not going to sacrifice much performance if any to use less power. Tighter power management, hybrid sleep, and idle performance modes are found all across the board.

Agreed, although these factors' contributions can often still include some power management shortcomings when it comes to external peripherals...its a generic advantage to the iMac in that it is more fully integrated, even before we consider contributions from 'laptop' CPUs and the like.

For example, as per cnet listings, LCD displays typically consume around 0.3w/inch^2, so a generic 24" LCD is going to consume around 75W, which if it isn't well integrated into the green management system - - or if one simply enjoys watching your screen saver - - adds to the bill. On non-integrated systems where there's more than one power plug, one has to remember to measure all the plugs (via Kill-a-watt instrumentation or whatever else). Its a simple enough concept, but easily overlooked even by the well-intentioned.

In any event, because of all of these moving parts and variation potentials in duty cycles, the effort to do a full-blown analysis down through all of the 2nd & 3rd order of magnitude contributors is rarely worth the effort for the cost of a single computer. Instead, a simple ROM seeking to see if there's potentially an order of magnitude difference between computer X or computer Y is generally sufficient, which is all that I did. IIRC, I got a number around $266, which I conservatively rounded down to $250.

This simple ROM approach is to just compare the relative magnitudes of the Power Supply Unit (PSU) ratings and then assume a 24/7 at one's current local electrical rates, whereupon one would then look through the 2nd order variables to see how profoundly they might affect this simple chop, higher or lower.

For example, for readers here who are running apps such as Boinc , then the machine is indeed working closer to the assumed "24/7", which lends credence to the 24/7 baseline value. Similarly, since this is a future expenses calcuation where there will invariablly be growth in utility rates...using the present rate is an under-estimation which serves as an offset an otherwise high assumption on utilization rates. Also, differences in the form factor of the computers can play a role: since an iMac lacks expansion bays, it discourages the home user from perpetuating the operation of legacy hard drives, so the risks of power consumption growth over the hardware's lifecycle are different: its a lower risk for the iMac, and the beige box PC gets under-estimated, since each additional legacy 3.5" HD kept around running adds another 10W at idle (and 20W when spinning). Plus there is as mentioned above the budgeting to compare at the system level to make sure that the 2nd plug that's using up 75W to drive the PC's non-integrated 24" LCD isn't accidentally overlooked...its another source of potential under-estimation of the beige box PC that influences the overall lifecycle costs.

Overall, it is reasonable to conclude that the iMac consumes roughly half as much power of a beige box PC.

And that's before we delve into other factors. For example, current popular gamer PC Video cards include the Radeon HD 4890 or GeForce GTX 285 which consume around 50W at idle and 75W-150W when running full tilt on top of all of the other power loads. Thus, it hardly becomes a surprise to find that home "gamer" PCs are running 600W-850W sized PSUs.

In the meantime, Apple lists their base 20" iMac as having an idle power consumption of ~60w, and ~100W at max, which includes driving the LCD display. Granted, many enthusiats will probably opt for the 24" iMac which is does consume more power, but per Apple, it tops out at essentially only ~200W.

So one can choose to develop your own model with whatever degree of complexity and utilization values you want to assume and so forth, but the bottom line is that the question isn't if the iMac isn't a substantially lower power consumer...the question is merely how large of a difference is present for one's specific duty cycle application...and for that, we are all always going to be different.

Because of the wide amount of varation in desktop PCs, its effectively impossible to pick a generic instance, let alone a utilization ratio. For example, a PC could arguably be an 850W PSU-rated gamer system, which is roughly 8x the power of the 20" iMac ... which means that a 20" iMac running full blast 24/7 (no idle or green power savings) will consume roughly the same amount of energy as the former in only 3 hours (and 21 hours off). If we then try to model power savings as a simple 50% idle savings on the iMac, then a (8+16)/7 utilization turns out to be roughly equal to this gamer PC box at a (2+0)/7 utilization...

...yet even this is incomplete, since we're ignoring the gamer PC's external LCD monitor's energy costs (drives its power consumption higher) as well as that we're comparing based on a rating instead of actual (drives its power consumption lower). At least these two ignored-fators offset each other, which minimizes the overall net contribution of these not being included in this version of a model.

And so on and so on and so on. Feel free to put as many variables into play as you wish, and decide for yourself if there's really a "garage sized" hole in my very simple first order ROM or not.

In any event, the next step from here would be overall lifecycle cost difference, which would be done by multiplying whatever differential you decided to go with by whatever expected system lifespan. YMMV, but for generic households which include "trickle-down" through familymembers, its undoubtedly going be more than a mere 3 years. IMO, its going to be at least 5 years and not uncommon to see 7 years.

And knowledgable readers will notice that these 5 & 7 year values happen to allign with Apple's current published definitions of "vintage" and "obsolete" hardware.

Gosh, that makes them sound so unreasonable to use, doesn't it? ;)

If we assume a 5 year lifespan, if the per-year energy differentials are $100-$250, then we're looking at a TCO offset factor of $500-$1250. Similarly, for a 7 year, its $700 - $1750. Regardless of which number you want to use, it is a non-trivial percentage of the original cost of the hardware, so it is hard to justify ignoring it totally.

But some readers will insist on doing so anyway...its their choice, but it undermines their credibility as soon as they mention the word "Value".


-hh
 
Speaking of ignorant, try reading that line again. They were taking out the netbooks to help make the Windows notebooks look better at $569 instead of $520. It had nothing to do with making Apple's numbers look better.

The word "nasty" was likely a very minor reference. More like a nasty paper cut, the low price of the netbooks were lowering the overall average price Windows notebooks...

No, I don't think it was all Wilcox (and Slivka quoting him) was trying to convey. IMO, there were less revealing, non-biased ways to indicate the effect on Windows notebook sales by Netbooks - without being "nasty".
 
No Apple's ability make big profits on a small amount of items sold is impressive, but they are still very small player in the market. Smaller than Dell, HP & Acer.

Profit is more important than market share. I would rather have a company sell less but make more than a company that sells a lot and makes virtually nothing.
 
Profit is more important than market share. I would rather have a company sell less but make more than a company that sells a lot and makes virtually nothing.

Like I said Apple's ability make big profits on a small amount of items sold is impressive. But to say you have 91% of the +1000 pc market is a spin, because that market is extremely small & insignificant. Most of the total market is below 1000 dollars...
 
Like I said Apple's ability make big profits on a small amount of items sold is impressive. But to say you have 91% of the +1000 pc market is a spin, because that market is extremely small & insignificant. Most of the total market is below 1000 dollars...

Well I guess we define insignificant differently. Usually when a market is insignificant, the companies selling in those markets can't make much money. But Apple is making a lot of money from those insignificant market buyers. Crazy.
 
No Apple's ability make big profits on a small amount of items sold is impressive, but they are still very small player in the market. Smaller than Dell, HP & Acer.

Apple is a bigger company the Dell, HP, or Acer when it comes to market cap!

It would take a very limited definition to consider Apple a "very small player" in the personal computer market.

Like I said Apple's ability make big profits on a small amount of items sold is impressive. But to say you have 91% of the +1000 pc market is a spin, because that market is extremely small & insignificant. Most of the total market is below 1000 dollars...

Over $1.5 billion in retail store quarterly revenue is not insignificant by most definitions.
 
Overall, it is reasonable to conclude that the iMac consumes roughly half as much power of a beige box PC.

Except that the assumptions in your first order estimate are completely contradicted by the facts shown by connecting an accurate watt meter to the black box PC.

Some reasons for this discrepancy that I can see:

  • You mention running grid apps (Boinc/folding/SETI/WCG/...) as adding to the cost of the PC. I'd suggest, first of all, that anyone concerned about electrical bills won't be running these apps! Just about anyone can figure out that since Folding makes the system hot and the fans run constantly - it must be chewing up power.
  • You suggest that the GTX 285 graphics card adds to the PC power use. How interesting, to assume that you need to compare the integrated graphics of the Imac with one of the top gaming cards. Why not use integrated graphics in the PC, or at least a mainstream card. (BTW, there's a 512 MiB HD4670 in my 95 watt Core i7-940 system)
  • "...approach is to just compare the relative magnitudes of the Power Supply Unit (PSU) ratings and then assume a 24/7..." - This approach is absurd, IMO, unless you're going to be using the system for multi-threaded video encoding 365 days a year. Modern systems have power fluctuations in components on the order of 20 to 1. Power supplies are sized for worst case loads with a comfortable cushion.
  • The reality is that systems (unless they're folding or encoding) spend most of their time in lower power states (my 2.93 GHz Core i7 seldom goes above 1 GHz for any length of time during normal use). Windows 7 even includes "core parking" in power management - idle cores can essentially be turned off to save power.
  • "Apple lists their base 20" iMac as having an idle power consumption of ~60w, and ~100W at max, which includes driving the LCD display. Granted, many enthusiats will probably opt for the 24" iMac which is does consume more power, but per Apple, it tops out at essentially only ~200W" Apple says "Maximum continuous power: 200W (20-inch model); 280W (24-inch models)" here
  • I hope that you're using Apple's power supply rating numbers and not Apple's measured consumption in your ROM.
  • Also, since the Imac only has space for one disk, I assume that you're adding the consumption of all those power bricks for the externals that most Imacs seem to have.
  • New systems are set to sleep after periods of inactivity, and to instant-on when touched. My systems at home sleep most of the time - even the Windows Home Server backups are set to use WOL to wake systems up in the middle of the night for backups, then put them back into hybrid sleep.

All the talk comparing the laptop-on-a-stick Imac with a high end gamer PC is silly - at least compare the Mac Pro quad with the gamer PC, or the Imac with an average mini-tower. If you downgrade the PC to match the Imac performance, you can save power too.

Connecting a power meter and using actual data isn't hard, and is a far better estimate.

Taking the worst case for the PC and measured data for the Imac, and assuming 24x7x52 full tilt is nonsense.

I think that it's a garage-door sized hole - perhaps a double-car garage door.
 
Microsoft's earnings announcement is after close of markets today.

We'll see if their "bleeding" matches the $4.4 billion in income on $13.6 billion in revenue last quarter.

So coming back to your post above, Aiden...any comments? :rolleyes:

Please feel free to come up with any excuses such as "Windows 7 is gonna save the next quarter" or "nobody is gonna buy Macs after the launch of Windows 7"...but do that only after you finish your daily plate of crow, ok? :rolleyes:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/23/technology/microsoft_earnings/index.htm?postversion=2009072318

A few wonderful excerpts about the moribund company's results:

"Microsoft Corp. blamed weakness in the global PC and server markets for a sharp drop in quarterly revenue that badly missed Wall Street's forecasts."

"Sales fell 17% to $13.1 billion in the company's fourth quarter ended June 30, far short of analysts' forecasts of $14.4 billion. It was the second consecutive quarter in which sales fell from year-ago levels. In the company's previous quarter, sales fell for the first time in Microsoft's 23-year history as a public company."

"The Redmond, Wash.-based software giant said its fourth-quarter net income fell 29% to $3.1 billion, or 34 cents per share."

You may also summon any of your fellow PC-loving friends that infest this forum. Hopefully you, together, will be able to present even more creative excuses against these facts.

MS IS DEAD. AND BURIED.
 
Hm, well when you work doing system maintenance like I do feel free to comment. Otherwise you have no idea what you are talking about. 100% of the systems we have had to service at work are PC's since I started working here almost 2 years ago. 100%. Yeah, we have probably 15 PC's for every 1 Mac, but still, 100% PC fixing, 0% Mac fixing. The amount of money that goes to me and my co-workers to remove viruses, re-image systems, fix Windows when it decides to do stupid things like get stuck on updates or delete user profiles, etc, is mind blowing. So much money gets invested into servicing the Windows operating system and fixing shoddy PC hardware.

Like I have said before, thank you Microsoft and PC makers for designing such problematic contraptions because if every company designed like Apple, I would be out of a job.

Should the world be adopting Apple's model then? One set of hardware and one set of software? Imagine the virus headache you would have then.

I have 15 years experience supporting PCs and most of the errors I encountered were user ones. User not updating anti-virus, users not updating Windows, users installing smilies which happened to include spyware.

If Apple had to support the same range of circumstances that PCs do, you can bet there would be more support calls for them. But while they hide behind their tiny marketshare and cater only to those with money to burn they can make all the claims they like about reliability.
 
Should the world be adopting Apple's model then? One set of hardware and one set of software? Imagine the virus headache you would have then.

I have 15 years experience supporting PCs and most of the errors I encountered were user ones. User not updating anti-virus, users not updating Windows, users installing smilies which happened to include spyware.

If Apple had to support the same range of circumstances that PCs do, you can bet there would be more support calls for them. But while they hide behind their tiny marketshare and cater only to those with money to burn they can make all the claims they like about reliability.

Well its nice to know your crystal ball is working.
 
I have 15 years experience supporting PCs

I'm sorry... :(

(And believe me, as a Windows user since 1993, I'm truly sorry.)

Should the world be adopting Apple's model then?

Oh, and the answer to this question is, of course, no.

Let the mindless Windows masses deal with the viruses and spyware. I don't need the hassle. My chosen platform's "tiny marketshare" has turned out to be a blessing in disguise in the Internet age.

Who woulda thunk...
 
It's simple. Apple knows what people will pay for. They are obviously doing well and so they see no need to change anything. As much as we would all like cheaper Apple computers, they won't do it because they obviuosly have worked out what works for them.

If you think that a Mac is too expensive... than don't buy one! It's that simple. When I buy a mac I keep in mind that although hardware costs seem more, I am also getting an OS that I like better, the whole iLife suite which rocks. (don't even bother comparing Windows Movie Maker to iMovie... it's like comparing a pair of sissors to a lawnmower when it comes to cutting grass. one is a joke)and a computer that, dare I say, is gorgeous. I will pay more for a product that I am proud to have on my desk or carry around. People do it all the time.

Again. If you think they are too expensive than don't by one. But stop complaining.
If the price dropps than sweet. If not than I don't care, I will still buy them.
 
Oh, and the answer to this question is, of course, no.

Let the mindless Windows masses deal with the viruses and spyware. I don't need the hassle. My chosen platform's "tiny marketshare" has turned out to be a blessing in disguise in the Internet age.

Who woulda thunk...

And there we have the typical Mac snob in all his ignorance.
 
And there we have the typical Mac snob in all his ignorance.

Well its true. Sorry, but it is. I love the small market share OS X and Linux have because it means we don't need to deal with that crap like Windows does. However I strongly believe both Linux and OS X would handle a larger audience better than Windows.
 
Well its true. Sorry, but it is. I love the small market share OS X and Linux have because it means we don't need to deal with that crap like Windows does. However I strongly believe both Linux and OS X would handle a larger audience better than Windows.
Are you against an increase in Apple's marketshare?
 
Well its true. Sorry, but it is. I love the small market share OS X and Linux have because it means we don't need to deal with that crap like Windows does. However I strongly believe both Linux and OS X would handle a larger audience better than Windows.

But Apple aren't even willing to test that theory. So in the end its just elitism, keeping all the goodies to themselves and charging extra for the privileges. Thats not an argument thats manipulation of the facts.
 
Some reasons for this discrepancy that I can see:

And here's where you are ... once again ... grasping at straws:

[*]You mention running grid apps (Boinc/folding/SETI/WCG/...) as adding to the cost of the PC.

Incorrect - its a factor for both.

The objective was to reality-check how realistic it was to baseline the ROM by a 24/7 utilization assumption. Grid apps undoubtedly increase utilization and aren't uncommon, so this factor makes the 24/7 ROM assumption less unreasonable.

Performing overnight backups (as you mention later on) is another utilization example that similarlly makes the 24/7 ROM less unreasonable.

Overnight software udpate checks does too.

Ditto each other 'housekeeping' script that is set to run overnight.

Each such instance contributes its incremental part to the overall average utilization, which results in a value that is clearly greater than the overt measure of how many hours that one personally sits behind the keyboard.

As I said previously, if you want to use a model with different assumptions, then go have at it. The challenge isn't in making it more representatively 'accurate', but that the model results in a profoundly different conclusion than a KISS ROM.


[*]You suggest that the GTX 285 graphics card adds to the PC power use.

Also an incorrect interpretation.

The gamer card is a common enough PC expansion and was merely used as an illustration as to how highly variable the power consumption of a generic PC can be: the two cards mentioned consume ~50W at idle all by themselves, so if you were to figuratively add them to anyone's system, your home electric bill will have just shot up by ~$65/year.


[*]"...approach is to just compare the relative magnitudes of the Power Supply Unit (PSU) ratings and then assume a 24/7..." - This approach is absurd, IMO ...

Absurd, unless something like a grid application is running, as was already discussed above...or data backup operations, software update checks, etc. The more one looks, the longer the list becomes.

Plus, as was mentioned...but you deleted reference to...was that the cost of energy isn't going to remain unchanged across the multi-year lifecycle. Very simplistically, this can be modeled through substitution as another increase in utilization. For example, 12 hours at $0.30kWhr = 24 hours at $0.15kWhr.


Power supplies are sized for worst case loads with a comfortable cushion.

Sure, but regardless of what design cushion you choose, the PSU ratio stays the same. For example, 200W PSU : 400W PSU is a 1:2 ratio, and (80%)(200W):(80%)(400W) is a 1:2 ratio too.


[*]The reality is that systems (unless they're folding or encoding) spend most of their time in lower power states...

Which can be addressed if you really want to, and was already discusssed. The challenge isn't in making a more 'accurate' model, but if that that model results in a profoundly different conclusion than a KISS ROM.


(my 2.93 GHz Core i7 seldom goes above 1 GHz for any length of time during normal use).

That you bought too much machine for what you actually use it for is an interesting tangential point, since it counters the common argument that the iMac is underpowered and suggests that such "overbuying" may be a common behavior within the PC community.


[*]I hope that you're using Apple's power supply rating numbers and not Apple's measured consumption in your ROM.

Yes, the ROM was a simple comparison of PSU ratings, and subject to all of the limitations therein. While this clearly does over-estimate, there are also factors that compensate by under-estimating which have been previously mentioned.

Apple's measured iMac consumption of 60w was mentioned as a counterpoint to your claim of 100w-110w idle power consumption for your personal system. YMMV if 60w is roughly half of 100-110w.


[*]Also, since the Imac only has space for one disk, I assume that you're adding the consumption of all those power bricks for the externals that most Imacs seem to have.

That is a consideration and risk...as was already discussed. Your Q6600 system with 6 disk drives serves as a poster child that illustrates my point.


I think that it's a garage-door sized hole - perhaps a double-car garage door.

Merely your opinion. The rest of the MR readership can judge for themselves.


-hh
 
Also an incorrect interpretation.

The gamer card is a common enough PC expansion and was merely used as an illustration as to how highly variable the power consumption of a generic PC can be: the two cards mentioned consume ~50W at idle all by themselves, so if you were to figuratively add them to anyone's system, your home electric bill will have just shot up by ~$65/year.
You're going to need to change your baseline for a gamer card. The GTX285 isn't a gold standard that you can slap down and say everyone and their dog has one. You're going to need to hit the 8800GT G92 and its derivatives as being a proliferate base or a Radeon 4850. Even then the 2D idle or 3D performance states are set by the vendor's BIOS and can be modified by the user. My 4830 idles at 160/250 MHz which is lower than the base 500/700 MHz of other cards.

You're trying to exaggerate the power consumption. At least it wasn't something as far out as a GTX295 or 4870X2.

That you bought too much machine for what you actually use it for is an interesting tangential point, since it counters the common argument that the iMac is underpowered and suggests that such "overbuying" may be a common behavior within the PC community.
You can buy too much machine for much less than an iMac.

I'm sure most iMacs are in their idle states just as much as someone sporting a Core i7. Twice the money to idle just as much and less performance when you do need it. How does that work? How about the time spent to complete task on a Core 2 Duo vs. a Core i7 or dare I say Core 2 Quad?
 
I smell a lot of jealous in this thread.

yeah, i am sure PC's have 90% market share envy...:eek: At the end of the day, windows dominates the business space and until apple even scratches that, this just speaks to their refusal to move off their absurd margins.
 
Some graphics card stats

These are from the Steam Hardware Survey, so these are primarily gaming systems where power consumption is not as important as power output:

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

The 8800 is pretty common on there, so the below post is quite correct:

You're going to need to change your baseline for a gamer card. The GTX285 isn't a gold standard that you can slap down and say everyone and their dog has one. You're going to need to hit the 8800GT G92 and its derivatives as being a proliferate base or a Radeon 4850.
 
yeah, i am sure PC's have 90% market share envy...:eek: At the end of the day, windows dominates the business space and until apple even scratches that, this just speaks to their refusal to move off their absurd margins.

Which PC company has 90 percent share? :rolleyes:
 
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