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You started off on overvolting the G4 to produce higher clockspeeds. Which only really applied on the Power Mac G4 variants and not the mobile ones. I'm looking at you 667/733 Power Mac G4 Digital Audio.

The PowerPC 750CX, CXe, and FX met with die/process shrinks and voltage drops with the improvement in the wafer processing.

Then you're talking about computational output per clock cycle? Do you see the confusion here?

First of all I was talking about the G3 not the G4...secondly that is an entirely different argument from the one we're having right now.

I was talking about this:

The Core i7 runs cooler by design than a CoreDuo, which you cannot refute.

Suppose we ran a benchmark and made it so both processors were running at 65C and the CoreDuo could do 1 instruction per second, but the Core i7 can do 10 instructions per second....that makes the Core i7 ten times cooler per computing power. (BTW just so you don't flame me on my benchmark numbers I was using them to make the math simple).

Now do you see where I'm coming from or do you need it simpler than that?

This thread did get kind of off track anyways...to return to my original beef with motorola, yes I blame them....they promised apple they would make mobile procs that would fit the design of the computer.....but they failed and the procs got too hot...there by creating the logic board problem. The laptop was designed before the proc not the other way around, and if motorola was going to have a problem with heat under extended heavy loads which my iBook was under most of the time for development they should have said "Hey maybe you should make a better heatsink Apple."
 
The i7 dissipates more heat on average than the core 2 line. This is due to the integrated memory controller being absorbed onto the cpu die along with a few other features. Both lines are on the 45 nm processing node...and while you can reduce power to come extent by the chip transistor layout...as of present...both use the same 45nm gates on the same high-k process.


The entire i7 design requires 130W of thermal dissipation, and this is do to that fact that chips are binned by what amount of leakage, IE heat generation, as per clock speed. The silicon is binned such that the entire core i7 line has a 130W dissipation requirement, ala intel's spec sheet, but is because of characters of the individual chips.
 
First of all I was talking about the G3 not the G4...secondly that is an entirely different argument from the one we're having right now.
The G3 never had any cooling problems. It's a ridiculously energy efficient design that lived on for years and benefited from die and process shrinks while Apple used it. The iMac G3 even went passive later on in its life.

I was talking about this:

The Core i7 runs cooler by design than a CoreDuo, which you cannot refute.

Suppose we ran a benchmark and made it so both processors were running at 65C and the CoreDuo could do 1 instruction per second, but the Core i7 can do 10 instructions per second....that makes the Core i7 ten times cooler per computing power. (BTW just so you don't flame me on my benchmark numbers I was using them to make the math simple).

Now do you see where I'm coming from or do you need it simpler than that?
Have you even taken into account the volume and surface area differences for the coolers for a 31W TDP processor and a 130W TDP one?

Like I said before try putting a Bloomfield Core i7 into an inch thick notebook and compare that against a Core Duo.
 
This thread did get kind of off track anyways...to return to my original beef with motorola, yes I blame them....they promised apple they would make mobile procs that would fit the design of the computer.....but they failed and the procs got too hot...there by creating the logic board problem. The laptop was designed before the proc not the other way around, and if motorola was going to have a problem with heat under extended heavy loads which my iBook was under most of the time for development they should have said "Hey maybe you should make a better heatsink Apple."
I'm sure it wasn't the solder on the BGA package, case flexing from pressure, or thermal cycling.
 
This thread did get kind of off track anyways...to return to my original beef with motorola, yes I blame them....they promised apple they would make mobile procs that would fit the design of the computer.....but they failed and the procs got too hot...there by creating the logic board problem. The laptop was designed before the proc not the other way around, and if motorola was going to have a problem with heat under extended heavy loads which my iBook was under most of the time for development they should have said "Hey maybe you should make a better heatsink Apple."
Just....wow.

I didn't think it would be possible for anyone to turn what is clearly and unquestionably a laptop design issue into a component vendor problem, but you've actually managed to convince yourself it's true - and in the same discussion that you're insisting Apple always has the best hardware, as well !

Bravo. That's some serious fanboyism you've got there.
 
This is a mind-bogglingly wrong way to compare. It's like comparing the fuel consumption of two vehicles by looking at the highest number on their speedometers.

No, it is merely a simple way to compare as a ROM. And the appropriate automotive analogy would be to estimate MPG based on Horsepower ratings. There aren't too many Dodge RAM 2500 pickup trucks with the Hemi engine that honestly get 40mpg.

Your "estimation" that the average PC has a power-sucking video card rather than an integrated one, further reinforces this point.

Incorrect. Apparently, you failed to fully read this thread tangent and skimmed over the key point as to why it was originally mentioned. For now, I'll excuse you from any purposeful maliciousness.


A fair way of gauging the average PC's power supply - which you obviously aren't interested in - would be to have a look at a few PCs that fit into the ~$600 price range most people buy at. If you did that, you'd find that 250W is a more reasonable assumption.

First off, I see that you've already agreed later in this thread that your suggestion of using 250W is too low.

Second, the iMac has been the perennial punching bag for being 'wimpy' because of its low power components, and the rallying point of the enthusiasts for apple to sell a headless iMac ... aka xMac. For the past year, the new i7 CPU has been the poster child for what Apple should be building this xMac around, and for a point of reference, Dell's Studio XPS has a 360w PSU.

Third, please note ... as has been stated before ... that the generic desktop PC's PSU doesn't also drive the display, whereas for the iMac it does. This system architecture difference should be resolved and IIRC, a 24" LCD burns around 75W of power, so a value of roughly this magnitude would need to be added to the ratings in order to make a fair comparison of equals.

Thus, for whatever your now agreed upon PSU revision is (300w, or perhaps 360w for the Dell i7), add to that a budget for the external display (eg, ~75w for a 24" LCD) and see if you've now reached the conclusion of being in the same ballpark as the original 400W value.


I don't need to be "wary" ... I know when someone is making reasonable guesstimates and when someone is spewing ********, and your posts are the ones reeking to high heaven.

YMMV how reasonable is a guesstimate when it uses utility rates that are 40% lower than their local actual, even before we see that their peak utilization rate was assumed to be a mere 3%. Dare I say "LowBall"?


Your assumptions and calculations regarding power use are both wrong, and dishonest. It is unlikely that the average modern PC pulls over 100W, even in "peak times" and is likely around 75W during "typical usage".

The fallacy with this approach is that it is claiming that the OEM's 300W (and larger) PSUs are technically unnecessary overkill. But given the cutthroat competition in the PC marketplace, then why haven't the OEMs figured this out on their own and cut their costs by going to a non-oversized PSU?

I don't see how it would make sense for the OEMs to so grossly oversize a component and subsequently lose an opportunity to improve their razor-thin profit margins...so please enlighten us.


-hh
 
The G3 never had any cooling problems. It's a ridiculously energy efficient design that lived on for years and benefited from die and process shrinks while Apple used it. The iMac G3 even went passive later on in its life.

Then why does my wooden coffee table still have a mark on it from my ibook g3 from when it was overheating? Also why was the fan on constantly? Also why did the solder melt on the logic board? The chip was simply too hot...either by being defective or by design.
 
I don't see how it would make sense for the OEMs to so grossly oversize a component and subsequently lose an opportunity to improve their razor-thin profit margins...so please enlighten us.

Possibly because the cost of a few extra watts is minor - especially at the low end, judging by Newegg's PS prices.

More likely because running a power supply near its rated power can dramatically shorten its lifetime. It's expensive for an OEM to have to replace parts, so a slightly more expensive power supply can be cheaper in the long run.

There's also the issue of the power on surge, when disks spin up, fans spin up, and all the capacitors charge.

And, while it would seem very unusual to an Apple buyer, these systems are upgradeable. If the mini-tower has a couple of empty disk slots, it would be bad form not to include a power supply that can handle spinning up the extra disks.

You still haven't told us why you are ignoring the Dell power consumption calculator which shows that a Dell office PC + LCD uses $37/year in electricity - although you claim that it uses $250 more per year than an Imac? Why continue to push the flawed estimate based on max power supply capacity used 24/7 when a more scientific model gives very different results?

By the way, that $37/year Dell has a 305 watt power supply ( ;) to Eidorian). Dell calculates $19/year in power (mini-tower only), where you'd get $401. Only different by a factor of 21.
 
Thus, for whatever your now agreed upon PSU revision is (300w, or perhaps 360w for the Dell i7), add to that a budget for the external display (eg, ~75w for a 24" LCD) and see if you've now reached the conclusion of being in the same ballpark as the original 400W value.
100% full load 24/7 to pop the PSU unlike the iMac am I right ?

The fallacy with this approach is that it is claiming that the OEM's 300W (and larger) PSUs are technically unnecessary overkill. But given the cutthroat competition in the PC marketplace, then why haven't the OEMs figured this out on their own and cut their costs by going to a non-oversized PSU?

I don't see how it would make sense for the OEMs to so grossly oversize a component and subsequently lose an opportunity to improve their razor-thin profit margins...so please enlighten us.


-hh
300W is unnecessary overkill for an average desktop minitower?

Then why does my wooden coffee table still have a mark on it from my ibook g3 from when it was overheating? Also why was the fan on constantly? Also why did the solder melt on the logic board? The chip was simply too hot...either by being defective or by design.
You're still going to blame IBM/Motorola for that? Should I blame Intel for 85 - 100° C MacBooks? :rolleyes:

Hey, you did a good job. I would have given up much earlier.
I'm pretty close.
 
100% full load 24/7 to pop the PSU unlike the iMac am I right ?

I'm surprised he's not calculating it at 110% to 120% to include the power supply inefficiencies. :D

Note that Apple's Imac spec sheet lists the power draw of the 24" Imac as 280 watts, even though it has a 250 watt PS.
 
I'm surprised he's not calculating it at 110% to 120% to include the power supply inefficiencies. :D

Note that Apple's Imac spec sheet lists the power draw of the 24" Imac as 280 watts, even though it has a 250 watt PS.
That would be peak wattage at 300W as well. You're looking at ~220 watts continuous and around 180-200W for maximum system load to stay on the safe side.

That would be a Q8200/8300 Core 2 Quad, 4 GB of RAM, a single hard drive, an optical drive, and a HD4670.

You might find this data sheet interesting.
50 more watts at higher temperatures? Sure isn't PC Power & Cooling around here.
 
100% full load 24/7 to pop the PSU unlike the iMac am I right ?

Pop the PSU?

No, there is no "unlike". The ROM duty cycle baseline for both was 24/7.

The only difference at this point was to make sure that the external display of the beige box PC didn't get inadvertantly overlooked. To make the two into system equals, you can either remove the display's energy costs from the iMac, or add it to the PC...your call as to which is easier to do



300W is unnecessary overkill for an average desktop minitower?

I don't think so.

The context of that "overkill" was in critiquing a claim that systems are only using a total of 100w at peak power.

As per Occam's razor, the simplest answer is that the highly competitive PC OEMs wouldn't waste money (reduce profits) by so significantly oversizing a component.

Since the OEMs are spending the money to use 300W PSUs, this suggests that the 100W claim is probably wrong.


-hh
 
The context of that "overkill" was in critiquing a claim that systems are only using a total of 100w at peak power.

As per Occam's razor, the simplest answer is that the highly competitive PC OEMs wouldn't waste money (reduce profits) by so significantly oversizing a component.

Since the OEMs are spending the money to use 300W PSUs, this suggests that the 100W claim is probably wrong.

Please point out the "100w at peak power" claim...

I can see:

How do you account for sleep and low power states where the systems spend much of their time? (My recording watt-meter shows that my Q6600 system with 6 disk drives spends most of its time at 100w to 120w.)

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/8147099/


I think that it's BS, simply because I'm looking at the screen of my "watt's up?" and it's showing that my Studio XPS (with 12 GiB of RAM and the 2.93 GHz Core i7-940) is averaging about 94 watts with 5 windows open and 6 gadgets running.

That's actual system power draw, counting NICs, graphics card, memory, CPUs, disk, keyboard, mouse, WiFi, ....

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/8148334/

The 100 watt figure is accurate for my systems when they're not cranking away at some CPU or graphics intensive task. Most systems in typical use are mostly idle. Lengthy periods of 100% CPU usage on any core are rare for most users.

Never did I claim that 100 watts was peak.

I'll see how high I can push the power draw later.
 
No, it is merely a simple way to compare as a ROM.

No. It's flat-out wrong. The PSU does not dictate how much a system does draw, it simply sets an approximate upper bound on how much it can draw.

Hence my very deliberate choice of not using horsepower as an analogy.

Second, the iMac has been the perennial punching bag for being 'wimpy' because of its low power components, and the rallying point of the enthusiasts for apple to sell a headless iMac ... aka xMac. For the past year, the new i7 CPU has been the poster child for what Apple should be building this xMac around, and for a point of reference, Dell's Studio XPS has a 360w PSU.
You are comparing apples to oranges. An i7 machine is more properly compared to a Mac Pro. It's ridiculous to compare its power supply to an iMac.

Third, please note ... as has been stated before ... that the generic desktop PC's PSU doesn't also drive the display, whereas for the iMac it does. This system architecture difference should be resolved and IIRC, a 24" LCD burns around 75W of power, so a value of roughly this magnitude would need to be added to the ratings in order to make a fair comparison of equals.

Which is utterly irrelevant to my estimates, because I'm estimating how much the whole system draws, rather than reading some maximum numbers of spec sheet and making wholly incorrect assumptions about usage.

To say nothing of the further dishonesty of assuming a typical PC has a 24" LCD connected to it.

Thus, for whatever your now agreed upon PSU revision is (300w, or perhaps 360w for the Dell i7), add to that a budget for the external display (eg, ~75w for a 24" LCD) and see if you've now reached the conclusion of being in the same ballpark as the original 400W value.
Except the original conclusion is completely wrong, because the maximum rating of the power supplies does not dictate how much power the system draws - it merely sets an upper bound of how much it can draw.

YMMV how reasonable is a guesstimate when it uses utility rates that are 40% lower than their local actual, even before we see that their peak utilization rate was assumed to be a mere 3%. Dare I say "LowBall"?
It has nothing to do with utility rates and everything to do with your ridiculous assumptions about power draw and usage patterns.

The fallacy with this approach is that it is claiming that the OEM's 300W (and larger) PSUs are technically unnecessary overkill. But given the cutthroat competition in the PC marketplace, then why haven't the OEMs figured this out on their own and cut their costs by going to a non-oversized PSU?
There is no such claim. OEMs spec their power supplies for the maximum possible power draw that system could pull with all options added. For a maxed-out configuration - even on an entry-level machine - that could be 2-3 hard or optical drives, a beefy video card, 8GB+ RAM and a quad-core CPU.

I don't see how it would make sense for the OEMs to so grossly oversize a component and subsequently lose an opportunity to improve their razor-thin profit margins...so please enlighten us.

Because it's (obviously) cheaper to have a single standard PSU across the dozens of different configurations the typical PC can be bought in, than try to exactly match a given configuration to a specific PSU. To say nothing of having vastly more physical space to work with.

All of your assumptions in this comparison are ridiculous. From the PSU running at 100%, through 24/7 operation at that load, to the hardware configurations. Added to which, you are arguing with people who a) actually understand the technology, and b) have actually taken measurements. You are wrong. A typical PC (plus monitor) will draw something in the range of 75-100W, depending on its use. Marginally more than an iMac ? Probably. Significantly more than an iMac ? Not a chance. Even a relatively high-end gaming machine, under peak load, will only draw around 250-300W. Only the highest-end machines, with dual quad-core CPUs, multiple SLIed video cards, four or more hard disks and 16GB+ RAM might start to push over the 500-600W mark, and even then only under heavy load (in typical usage they'll be down around the 100W mark, like other machines).

Your fundamental mistake is assuming that the capacity of the PSU is a reliable indicator of how much power a system actually draws. You've made some other bad assumptions as well, but they mostly stem from that initial error.
 
I think that it's BS, simply because I'm looking at the screen of my "watt's up?" and it's showing that my Studio XPS (with 12 GiB of RAM and the 2.93 GHz Core i7-940) is averaging about 94 watts with 5 windows open and 6 gadgets running.

For interest's sake, can you load up Prime95 or something similar, and see what the power draw is with the CPU maxed out ?

Bonus points for throwing in a 3D Mark run at the same time to load up the GPU. That should give pretty close to a worse-case power draw scenario for that system.
 
The context of that "overkill" was in critiquing a claim that systems are only using a total of 100w at peak power.


No-one suggested that 100W was the maximum that system (or other based on the same chassis) would draw under an extreme load. That was an estimation of the maximum draw for typical usage (web browsing, etc).

As per Occam's razor, the simplest answer is that the highly competitive PC OEMs wouldn't waste money (reduce profits) by so significantly oversizing a component.

Unlike Apple, PC OEMs sell systems whose configurations can vary significantly in the same chassis. Clearly the miniscule additional costs in "overspeccing" PSUs at the low end are more than made up for by savings in inventory management.

The difference in potential power draw between a base level and top-end iMac is relatively small, due to their minimal configuration and component differences. The same cannot be said for even a basic PC, which in the same chassis could range from something equivalent to a Mac Mini, to something with 3-4x the specs of a top-end iMac.
 
YMMV how reasonable is a guesstimate when it uses utility rates that are 40% lower than their local actual, even before we see that their peak utilization rate was assumed to be a mere 3%. Dare I say "LowBall"?

Can you please explain where these "lowball" utility rates were used?

I've used $0.15/kwh in every one of my calculations (and if not, it was a simple mistake that I will correct).
 
drsmithy, Prime95 + 3DMark or Folding@Home sounds like a good idea. It's nice to see someone else that knows something about power consumption across various systems as well. 600W peak doesn't turn out to be 600W 24/7. :rolleyes:

Can you please explain where these "lowball" utility rates were used?

I've used $0.15/kwh in every one of my calculations (and if not, it was a simple mistake that I will correct).
I can get 9 to 12 cents/kwh here. 15 is being generous. :p

It depends on how you've set your preferences for "posts per page". ;)
40 posts per page is the only way to roll.
 
Bravo. That's some serious fanboyism you've got there.

Actually I prefer PCs for their broader range of hardware and software. I'm a linux fanboy not a Mac fanboy...all I was saying is that the chip was at fault for the melted solder/warped logic board not the design of the whole computer. Overall I think that Apple makes better bleeding edge products than pc manufacturers...i.e. the PC laptop running a Core i7...horrible design given that there are 4 freaking fans on the damn thing just to keep it cool...a better design would incorporate a slower/cooler running proc for better portability and to make it quieter.
 
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