Apple.com blocked in China?

[Traveler]

Responses

All of this speculation is pretty funny. You guys will grasp at just about any straw to find a reason for something that happens in the world of Apple.

I both agree and disagree. While this thread started off with some pretty lame (and humorous) conjecturing about the causes of Apple's blockage, it switched tracks midway and then moved well beyond Apple. While I generally read this board for Apple related news my comments this time had nothing to do with Mac. Rather, I saw an opportunity to engage in thoughtful conversation with several participants who clearly held reasoned global viewpoints.

Incidentally, while your theory is far more sound than most of the others it is not necessarily correct. As some have mentioned, the logic behind the firewall is often lacking. Moreover, the bamboo is not nationally effective. Therefore, your imperious and condescending tone is both unwarranted and ironic.

I am constantly amazed by companies that ignore or accept the political risk of doing business in China. Apple could build computers just as cheaply in India, Thailand or the Philippines without the political risks to business involved with dealing with a totalitarian government. If the Chinese government interferes with your business, you lose money. It doesn't make sense to ignore the large and rapidly growing Chinese market but you can reduce risk and improve productivity by concentrating on other parts of Asia and transporting products to China by truck, train, or ship.

India suffers from dreadful infrastructure. Roads, electricity grids, ports and plumbing are at least 30 years behind China. So, while the labor costs of producing computers in the Sub-Continent might be on par with the PRC, Apple would either have to lay down serious upfront cash to build a decent facility with reliable supply lines or put up with subpar operating conditions with even more instability than it currently experiences in Taiwan.

Thailand isn't really set up to manufacture hi-tech equipment. They are a center for textiles and clothing manufacturing but essentially it is a small environmentally sensitive country whose potential (and actual) eco-tourism value is much higher than it would be to strip its rainforests only to play industry catch-up with already established neighbors. Taiwan is, afterall, fairly buffered from the political instabilities of the mainland.

You may have a point with the Philipines. Although, I believe it shares many of the same traits and concerns that I described for India and Thailand.

On a slight tangent... the Apple site being down in China is really no big deal at all. Most people don't speak English there (Trust me, I know from experience dude) and couldn't give two hoots if the English website isn't up. As long as apple.com.cn is still running the only people affected are obsessive weiguoren who should probably be focusing on making the most of their cultural experiences rather than surfing apple's website. Apple's major problem in the region is its relative expense. In a country where even U.S. beige boxes can't compete with the beige-er than beige Chinese knock-offs, an apple computer selling at $1000 or more is a ludicrous expense affordable to very few.

I do somewhat agree with your point about corporate responsibility though. You weren't really arguing this but I strongly believe U.S. companies have an obligation to export not only their products but also the ideals that allowed them to exist in the first place. And I'm not just talking about cut-through meritocracy.

 

[ClimbingTheLog]

Thailand isn't really set up to manufacture hi-tech equipment.

It was reported that the hard drives in the iPod Mini are being made in Bangkok.

I strongly believe U.S. companies have an obligation to export not only their products but also the ideals that allowed them to exist in the first place. And I'm not just talking about cut-through meritocracy.

Hey, we're not treating people in third world countries worse than we treated our slaves pre-civil-war, we're giving them opportunity. If it wasn't for us they'd just be gathering mud all day long.

 

[herrmill]

Apple.com blocked in China

I think what the earlier posting basically referred to was that China has a better overall infrastructure for high tech companies than India, Thailand, etc.. Another consideration be the relationship Apple has with companies that they have used in the past for OEM work. Components are made all over Asia & have been for years, but most of the companies Apple subcontract their box & notebooks manufacturing to are Taiwanese-based companies & logically most of these have factories in China to take advantage of the lower labor costs. G5s & iPods are currently made here; notebooks in Taiwan.

Let's just hope Apple's quality standards for China-made product is higher than what Sony Ericsson allows on their mobile phones - my Chinese-made T68 is a piece of crap compared to the original model I use in the States!

 

[taos_ranch]

On a slight tangent... the Apple site being down in China is really no big deal at all. Most people don't speak English there (Trust me, I know from experience dude) and couldn't give two hoots if the English website isn't up.

Very true. If the site's currently being blocked, my suspicion is that (as mentioned above) the reason is either some IP business conflict or, more likely, similarity of the URL to that of the HK Apple Daily. Taiwan/Tibet/Hong Kong/Falungong are the hot-button areas that seem fair game for censorship and Apple Daily is one of the most anti-mainland in tone.

At the same time, many of the comments in this thread about "totalitarianism" in China strike me as so oversimplified as to be silly. China is a vast place, with different regions having greatly differing languages, cultures, governmental practices, and local customs. The central government tries to pretend it's in charge, but for the most part that's far from clear. And judging from my anectdoctal experience traveling around and speaking with people, many average Chinese welcome central government intrusion--they're seen as the *good guys*, protecting the working people from abuses by local authorities. Compared with a generation ago there's much more freedom of speech, with extensive private criticism of all manner of formerly forbidden topics. China's internet policy and it's clumsy use of firewalls (built by Sun and Cisco, word has it) are as much part of a struggle within the bureaucracy to create new fiefdoms and gain power as they are about squelching ideas. In short, the situation is far messier and more complex than it seems from 1000s of miles away.

 

[herrmill]

Very true. If the site's currently being blocked, my suspicion is that (as mentioned above) the reason is either some IP business conflict or, more likely, similarity of the URL to that of the HK Apple Daily. Taiwan/Tibet/Hong Kong/Falungong are the hot-button areas that seem fair game for censorship and Apple Daily is one of the most anti-mainland in tone...

...China's internet policy and it's clumsy use of firewalls (built by Sun and Cisco, word has it) are as much part of a struggle within the bureaucracy to create new fiefdoms and gain power as they are about squelching ideas. In short, the situation is far messier and more complex than it seems from 1000s of miles away.

Very correct you are - the situation is far messier & harder to quantify that some of what has been suggested as a cabel of red communists running a "great firewall" office in Beijing. I live & work in Shanghai & can't access many sites that we use for our sourcing business half of the time. We just called China Telecom asking why UL's www.ul.com website is blocked at my office yet I can access at my apartment from 3km away! Same goes for the NY Times website. Go figure!

 

[meta-ghost]

At the same time, many of the comments in this thread about "totalitarianism" in China strike me as so oversimplified as to be silly. China is a vast place, with different regions having greatly differing languages, cultures, governmental practices, and local customs.

i'm with you. why can't americans understand that accidents of history can lead another land on a different road. china has problems no other nation faces. nearly 20% of the world's population. it has, existing simultaneously, every type of economy imaginable (the village, the industrial revolution, the high tech, and everything in between). somehow, someway, we demand they mimic us now.

american's were recently aghast at the fact the government shut down "internet cafes" within a certain distance of schools. looked like censorship straight and clear. well i can tell you something about it. i lived in beijing and used those cafes. and the typical visit was as follows: enter thru doors to a room with about 40 large computer screens. one young girl would be in the back typing an email to a friend and the other 39 screens with young men in front of would have nothing but the worst pornographic material you've ever seen.

was the government wrong? maybe. but there are a few fcc restrictions i'd like to talk about.

i don't mean to go easy on what are most certainly repressive elemants in the chinese government. awful things do happen. but the government is also full of people who do genuinely care about china.

 

[ClimbingTheLog]

it has, existing simultaneously, every type of economy imaginable (the village, the industrial revolution, the high tech, and everything in between). somehow, someway, we demand they mimic us now.

Are you suggesting liberal democracies don't scale past a certain number of citizens?

Most of the great western democracies were founded in an agrarian society and progressed through all of those stages. Some states such as India are very much in all of those stages now as well. Yet we find from those examples that Stalinist human rights abuse is not a necessary condition for a state in those various stages of development.

 

[mustang_dvs]

Great catch, Good Citizen! Here's the link for those behind the Great Firewall: http://www.mammals.org/education/ilifeawards/

Mustang_dvs, you have way too much time. Or you are obssessed driven by a complex.

Hmm... well, 1) I'm stuck at home with a nasty cold, 2) perhaps you noticed that I'm in D.C. -- did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, I work in something related to foreign/national security policy? (In fact, my principal focus has traditionally been on former-Soviet and Chinese issues, though since early 2000, I've been focused almost exclusively on violent fundamentalist islam.), 3) I read newspapers, news magazines, books and occasionally watch the news and PBS's Nova -- perhaps if you did you'd be aware of a few of these things, too...

 

[iMan]

Hmm... well, 1) I'm stuck at home with a nasty cold, 2) perhaps you noticed that I'm in D.C. -- did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, I work in something related to foreign/national security policy? (In fact, my principal focus has traditionally been on former-Soviet and Chinese issues, though since early 2000, I've been focused almost exclusively on violent fundamentalist islam.), 3) I read newspapers, news magazines, books and occasionally watch the news and PBS's Nova -- perhaps if you did you'd be aware of a few of these things, too...

He he, you gotta be joking... no?

 

[meta-ghost]

Are you suggesting liberal democracies don't scale past a certain number of citizens?

Most of the great western democracies were founded in an agrarian society and progressed through all of those stages. Some states such as India are very much in all of those stages now as well. Yet we find from those examples that Stalinist human rights abuse is not a necessary condition for a state in those various stages of development.

i'm not at all suggesting that. what i am saying is that there are no other examples (past or present) that work as a model for china. it has all of the "stages" of world history(since the village) exist simultaneously in 20% of the worlds population. this isn't a small point. it's a huge burden.

having lived in china, i'm perfectly comfortable that a liberal democracy can exist there. i'm expecting it. it's just not going to happen overnight no matter how much we want it to.

 

[KingJobs]

Apple might be trying to save their Chinese presence now with the whole Apple-Founder deal regarding iTunes.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/may/18founder.html

 

[mustang_dvs]

He he, you gotta be joking... no?

No, I'm not kidding. What makes you think that I am?

I don't work for the Bush Administration, but I do work for a think tank that serves more or less in an advisory role for the White House and Pentagon -- however, my recommendations and warnings fell on deaf ears from December 2000 until September 11 and during most of the planning and execution of the 'liberation' of Iraq and the subsequent occupation.

And yes, my formal education was in Soviet/former-Soviet and Chinese affairs and strategic/tactical military analysis, but since early 2000 a vast majority of my work has involved researching, assessing the threats posed by and advising courses of action regarding violent radical islamic groups.

And yes, I have an unusually persistent head cold and feel like a$$.

 

[qubex]

i'm not at all suggesting that. what i am saying is that there are no other examples (past or present) that work as a model for china. it has all of the "stages" of world history(since the village) exist simultaneously in 20% of the worlds population. this isn't a small point. it's a huge burden.

having lived in china, i'm perfectly comfortable that a liberal democracy can exist there. i'm expecting it. it's just not going to happen overnight no matter how much we want it to.

I've been living and working in Southern China for more than six months now, and from what I can ascertain, these people are not ready for liberal democracy. Much as I admire their culture and social resilience, I don't see the Chinese population as an aggregate whole possessing the necessary forebearance, altruism, education and civic sense to institute self-governance.

At the moment, as far as I can see it, the PRC Central Government is pretty much the glue holding the country together, rather than the Universal Subjugator some here have mentioned. I'm not a fan of many of their policies - far from it - but running a country such as China is a truly hapless task.

Note: I am not an anthropologist nor a sociologist, and I'm not yet a political analyst - but I am an economist. So take my comments or leave them.

 

[meta-ghost]

And yes, my formal education was in Soviet/former-Soviet and Chinese affairs and strategic/tactical military analysis,

say 'stang, how much time have you spent in china? how is your hanyu/guoyu?

 

[mustang_dvs]

say 'stang, how much time have you spent in china? how is your hanyu/guoyu?

I studied tactics and policies, not literature and culture, so I have very little hands-on experience with the Chinese. Since you weren't specific about "which" China - I've never been in the PRC, spent a couple of weeks in the ROC and my Mandarin is extremely basic - which could prove embarrassing in two weeks when my boss and I have dinner with Ambassador Yang at his residence.

 

[meta-ghost]

I studied tactics and policies, not literature and culture, so I have very little hands-on experience with the Chinese. Since you weren't specific about "which" China - I've never been in the PRC, spent a couple of weeks in the ROC and my Mandarin is extremely basic .

sorry 'stang but i have a problem with what you've done in this thread. you've presented one of the longer analysis on why and how china is a totalitarian state and you've never even been there. while this isn't necessarily always a pre-requisite, it's usually best to lay your cards on the table early. people will then know where your coming from.

china is a funny place. the more you spend time there and think you understand it, the more it surprises you. people who travel to only beijing come away with the idea of an incredibly controlled place. it just so happens that everywhere else is complete chaos. i've lived, studied, travelled and worked in china for 16 years. speak a bit as well. in between reading this thread, i'm actually working on a project in guilin and was there 4 weeks ago.

needless to say, studying military tactics and policies without the benefit of fieldwork can leave one subject to outdated ideological thinking and political gamesmanship. spending time there, on the other hand, will blow away all preconceived notions.

one of the things that struck me about this thread was the strong reaction when someone suggested we in the u.s. get our own act together certain issues. in my youth, i once spent an evening with mairead corrigan (who had won the nobel peace prize in 1976) and i was eager to talk about what we as americans can do to get rid of totalitarian states and fix human rights abuses around the world. she let me know in no uncertain terms that the most useful thing i could do would to fix the problems here, not somewhere else. the words were of course more poetic but time has lost them. the point being, people would do better to focus on (and bring into every discussion) our own problems with economic differences, unequal schools, the death penalty, handguns....

 

[mustang_dvs]

Well, meta-ghost I'm truly sorry that I don't yet have the life experience that you do... but I've only just turned 25. (Or 26 for those living in either of the two Chinas.)

I never stated that I was all-knowing or superbly experienced. And I never said that this country is perfect. I simply stated verifiable facts about the systematic repression of personal freedoms (including access to information and the ability to share opinions) and the continuing decline of the environment within mainland China, which could have severe humanitarian and economic consequences within a decade, not to mention the global repercussions.

But at least I realize that I am young and that I have much to learn and experience and that my opinion is not carved in stone. If only national security work paid better (no one ever said non-profit work was glamorous -- if I'd wanted to make money, rather than a difference, in D.C., I'd have gone to law school or become a lobbyist), I'd travel the world.

 

[qubex]

Well, meta-ghost I'm truly sorry that I don't yet have the life experience that you do... but I've only just turned 25. (Or 26 for those living in either of the two Chinas.)

I hate to point this out, but the "time since conception" thing really is an anachronism. I've never encountered anybody here in China who really does that.

So, without puttinig too harsh a point on it, perhaps a little insight into the underlying cultural subtext would be in order. It's not that I don't respect academia and so forth, but knowledge deprived of context is a very dangerous thing indeed.

"Knowledge is a powerful thing to have underhand,
But I'd gladly give it up if I could only understand."

 

[pawn]

snap shot of apple.com

here ya go screenshot of apple.com
the snap shot was taken on the 19th of may

 

[PTM]

More from China

You know, I have read this message board from time to time, but never had the desire to contribute until now.

Mustang_DVS: I envy your job, but you are full of it. Close your textbook and experience the world outside of acedemia and the beltway. China is in no way comparable to the DPRK. The way you preach the gospel, you'd think you'd been to hell and personally met the devil. But anyway, enjoy the Koolaid.

I've only been here a while, and I realize that I've only been to a few cities, but I have to say, China is not such a bad place to be. The people are great, society is remarkably open, and most people here are well aware of what is and is not real. You can buy the Economist, read almost any website you want, order any book, CD or DVD that Amazon carries, buy ANY movie on the street for $1.00 (not that I am in favor of piracy - but access is not controlled).

Yes the news can be full of mild propoganda, but at least here (as opposed to the US) people know it and don't care. Fox "Fair and Balanced?" That's not only propoganda, but a lie.

It is true that some websites are blocked. For example, I can get to bbc.com, but not the news page. I am quite sure that I visited apple.com within the last week or two. I downloaded ITunes yesterday, though at a whopping 564 bps. It took 6 hours.

On the upside, I have a 2 MBit dsl at home for 1500RMB per year. That's less than $200, and anyone can get it - I don't live in special "Laowei" housing.

As far as a border guard asking if a laptop had iMovie? That's crazy. I can believe it, but it is in no way the norm. At PuDong airport, you can watch thousands of people stream off airplanes from all corners of the globe. They have like one customs guy, and I have never seen them stop anyone. On the other hand, they screen everyone with thermal cameras to see if you have SARS. (Humorous sidenote - Shanghai, a city of 18 Million, had 8 cases of SARS. Toronto had 400 or 500. But because of the scare, they clean elevator buttons here every two hours. Yes - I know that Beijing had a lot of cases and that the government initially hid them from the WHO.)

Anyway, back to the good. There are great restaurants, great shopping, amazing history, and people here love to have fun. It is commonplace to see people dancing on the bars singing at the top of their lungs on any given Wednesday. Image isn't everything here, people can just be. There is almost no crime of any sort. Shanghai is far safer than any American city, with very few violent crimes. Theft is not much of a problem. There are pickpockets, but many of my friends (Chinese and Expat) don't lock their doors - even when they are not there. (I think people are afraid of the punishment.)

Okay, yes, there is a lot of bad. It can be very badly polluted, especially in Winter. It is crowded. There are a lot of poor people. Healthcare is a bit sketchy, though there are Western Clinics. The government does target and harass certain groups and people, often without cause. When Beijing was bidding for the Olympics, I heard they actually painted the grass green when the IOC cam to visit.

Anyway, I digress. My point is - all sorts of rumors fly around the expat circles here. The cab drivers are trained to listen to foreigners, hotel rooms are bugged, blah blah blah. Don't talk about Taiwan or Hong Kong or Tibet. Big Brother is watching and listening and if you slip up, you are gone to a labor camp for life.

It simply is not a significant factor in daily life. The quality of life is great, the people are wonderful and friendly, love their kids, pet their dogs, want to live the "American Dream" of owning a car and a flat and occasionally vacationing by the beach. And they are starting to.

So instead of talking about how horrible life is in "Communist China," come and visit.


P.S. - Allow me to preempt. No I am not Chinese. I do not work for their government or any agency or contractor of their government. I am not an apologist. I have not consumed and Koolaid since arriving in the PRC. I am not trying to minimize human rights abuses or the plight of those people and groups persecuted by the government. It concerns me as much as it concerns you. Are you doing anything about it...?

 

[qubex]

Censorship or no censorship, we're still able to post here, right?
This place is not North Korea. Unpleasant sometimes, but we're a trillion parsecs from that kind of lunacy.

It may have been that way back in the day, but not now. Not anymore.

 

[iMan]

No, I'm not kidding. What makes you think that I am?

Because:
1. You speak as you've seen the worlds come and go - and yet you say you are only 25 years old and sit put in a country with merely 200 years of history with your brains full of ancient theories
2. China is a vast and complex society - largely agricultural/early industrial - finally moving to open up to the world, something which has not been done - nor been needed - for thousands of years (!) (remember this country was an empire of proportions you americans will never obtain thousand years before USA even existed - that actually gives people some kind of heritage - you should experience it).
3. USA is a highly complex societey - largely high-tech - decidedly closing themselves to the outside world. This actually based on one (in historic perspective minor) incident. The US government is increasingly controlling its own people, censoring the news - all for the "best of the people" - this should sound familiar to you...
4. Within the next 50 years EU, India and China (+ maybe some other areas) will all have passed the US as the major forces in the world; economically, industrially and technologically - one thing you might actually still have is the military - and frankly; it scares me a lot!

I just hope Apple is still there making great experiences for me then

 

[Jerry@Beijing]

A Chinese Opinion

As a 100% Chinese and a huge Apple fan, I often visited this site, as well as other major English apple sites, looking for interesting information about Apple and its stories. I never wanted to post anything, maybe because there are very few China related threads here. This is the first China related rumor and I have to say I hate it.

Before I get off the topic, let me say that I did notice that apple.com was sometimes, not always, inaccessible recently, because I visit apple.com more than ten times a day. I have no problem visiting apple.com at work (maybe because I work for an American company, but this is off the topic.) I called Apple China office and they said I was not the first one who called them for this issue. They have sent their employees to various Internet Cafes on the streets but found out Apple.com worked just fine. Their local site, by the way, has been up all the time. One interesting fact I would like to point out is that when I visit apple.com at home, it was much much slower than other English apple sites, such as macworld.com.

Local Chinese apple fan sites, such as www.macfans.com.cn, also reported this problem and offered links to some proxy servers that can help connect. Nobody made a big deal of it, by the way. Chinese mac fans, in general, care more about where to buy the cheapest mac computers and how to use them, as they are so expensive to us and not 100% localized. (There are Chinese mac fans, however, who spend their six or even 12+ months income on their macs.)


Now please forgive me to get off the topic to say a few words about my country. As many people pointed out in this thread already, China is a big, diversified country with 20% of the world's population and a history of more than 5000 years to deal with. We have a lot of problems, some of the ones stated earlier in this thread are not included though, and there are a lot Chinese people, in power or not, are trying their best to make China a better place, for our 1.3 billion folks, for foreigners who choose to visit and spend their time here, for the rest of the world. We are the ones that care about this land most, more than anybody else in the world. Moreover, we understand this land and the people living here the best. Sometimes, we do make mistakes, but we are the first victims of those mistakes, and we are the first ones to take actions to correct those mistakes. We welcome and take suggestions from other cultures whenever and wherever we see appropriate, but we do not see that the United States, or any other country, is a "city upon the hill" for us to look up and follow. We also respect other nations and their values, and we don’t try to impose our values upon them.

When people asked me why I don't move to the United States and make 10 times or even more than what I am making now, I said I don’t agree with a lot of American values, and above all, I love China, because of and despite of a lot of things. As we say in Chinese “A child should not be shamed of his/her not-good-looking mother.” Interestingly, this thinking is somewhat shared by the American culture. I was told that many Americans think the United States is the best place in the world, despite its many problems. The difference might be China does not intent to make the rest of world Chinese, but the United States goes out of the way to do so.

Finally I would like to share a short story that I read as a little child but only understand its meaning until a couple years ago.

A little horse is stopped by a monkey before he is about to go across a river. "The river is very deep," said the monkey, "a friend of mine got drowned in it and died yesterday." The little horse hesitated but thinks he needs a second opinion. So he asks an OX nearby, "is the water deep?" "Not at all, it just got to my ankles," answered the OX. Confused and puzzled, the little horse goes back to see his Mom, who says to him, "why don't you try it out by yourself?" So he did. The water is not as deep as the monkey said, nor is it as shallow as the OX told him.

Welcome to China everyone. Sometimes you love it, other times you may hate it. It is a real world.

------------------------------------------------------
I am sure that one day I can afford a mac in China.

 

[paulbarton]

China

For what it's worth, I don't think many countries look up to America.
Most people in the UK are becoming aware of Americas dreadful foreign policies that have angered so many people around the world. I just wish I was exposed to less US culture (it's hard to avoid) and more from other places (such as China).

Do we really want perfect hollywood smiles masking poor educational standards?.. and as for the fast food!

 

[qubex]

Not to swerve off on a complete tangent, but I for one have grown completely disillusioned with the concept of America. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Quite frankly, noble as the concepts may be, all I see issuing forth from American officialdom is a neverending stream of hypocrisy and crass injudiciousness. </rant>

I shall not pursue this line unless provoked.

"Hell hath no fury as an idealist scorned."