Apple Considering Eliminating Qualcomm Chips From Next Year's iPhones and iPads

[defvphysics]

I'm siding with Qualcomm on this one. The real bully is Apple. Qualcomm vs Apple is like Steve Wozniak vs Steve Jobs.

 

[PizzaBoxStyle]

Apple will sell cheaper phones if the parts are cheaper. Maybe it won't affect it as much, but everyone else also buys from Qualcomm, and it'll affect their pricing more.

That's optimism that I just don't have.

 

[imaginex20]

GSM 3G also uses CDMA. So Qualcomm gets paid royalties anyway.



Exactly, and very much so.

Qualcomm gets paid the same royalties no matter whose chip is used. If Apple doesn't use QComm chips, only users get hurt.

That's because their chip business is more of a sideline, a valuable service to those wanting the best implementation of the standards. (Qualcomm contributed FRAND patents necessary for standards, but not all their optimizations. They can sell the latter for any price.)



There is no double dipping since Intel has not paid for the IP that Qualcomm licenses. No chipmaker does. Chips can be made and sold by anyone, competing on price and features alone. Heck, a lower chip price that's why MediaTek sells so well to Chinese phone makers.

Cellular IP licenses are directly and only paid by the phone makers instead.

And not just to Qualcomm. Don't forget Apple also needs licenses from Nokia, Ericsson, Samsung, LG and many other FRAND contributors... all of whom have royalties based on phone price.

Excuse me but no, CDMA is to totally different technology than 3G GSM. Apple did not use CDMA baseband modems until the iphone 4S which was the first Verizon iPhone. Guess who supplied the baseband until then? Infineon, and guess who owns Infineon now? Intel.

 

[ke-iron]

About time, I can't wait till they file for bankruptcy. Damn crooks.

 

[defvphysics]

Apple will sell cheaper phones if the parts are cheaper.

LOL, Apple sell cheaper phone? you are dreaming. Cheaper components just means profit for Apple, not you.

 

[kdarling]

Excuse me but no, CDMA is totally different technology than 3G GSM.

Nope, not at their base technology.

I'm not talking about the specific CDMA One /2000 standards used by e.g. Verizon for their 2G/3G implementation.

I mean the WCDMA radios used worldwide for GSM 3G.

Both types of 3G systems are based on a type of CDMA radio technology. Most GSM users seem not to know this.

 

[kerrikins]

What other companies have come out in favor of Apple in this matter?

Also, it's ultimately Apple who sets the final price of the iPhone, not Qualcomm. Apple can raise their prices (and they have been) to earn a higher profit on each phone. Apple is setting their price, and so is Qualcomm. I don't blame Qualcomm one bit.

What Apple is saying is that Qualcomm should make less profits so that Apple can make more profits. That's a good way to make enemies... real fast.

Many, actually: http://fortune.com/2017/07/20/apple-qualcomm-google-amazon-microsoft-facebook/

I'm not sure why people back Qualcomm. Royalties are one thing, it's another thing entirely to say that as a company you're somehow entitled to a percentage of another company's profits - profits that by and large have zero to do with Qualcomm and more to do with Apple's decisions. Apple doesn't object to paying them at all, they just object to paying more because they charge higher prices for their devices, and I understand their argument. You say that they should just raise their prices, but that just alienates customers *and* puts more money in Qualcomm's pockets.

South Korea apparently agrees, considering the fine they just levied against them.

 

[Pbrutto]

Can Intel make CDMA capable chips yet? Apple can't release an iPhone that doesn't support CDMA, can it?

Kifflom

 

[BaltimoreMediaBlog]

Qualcomm is going to end up just like Qualcomm Stadium, abandoned and needy for a player.

 

[imaginex20]

Not at their base.

I'm not talking about the specific CDMA One /2000 standards used by e.g. Verizon for their 2G/3G.

I mean the WCDMA radios used worldwide for GSM 3G.

Both types of 3G are based on CDMA radio technology. Most GSM users seem not to know this.

Although W-CDMA is used in a form of CDMA, Qualcomm does not own the proprietary rights to UTMS. Hence why intel/Infineon can make 3G phones in the US but they can’t make 3G CDMA modems. Qualcomm already strongarmed Broadcom, they’re not going to out muscle Apple

 

[defvphysics]

Many, actually: http://fortune.com/2017/07/20/apple-qualcomm-google-amazon-microsoft-facebook/

I'm not sure why people back Qualcomm. Royalties are one thing, it's another thing entirely to say that as a company you're somehow entitled to a percentage of another company's profits - profits that by and large have zero to do with Qualcomm and more to do with Apple's decisions. Apple doesn't object to paying them at all, they just object to paying more because they charge higher prices for their devices, and I understand their argument. You say that they should just raise their prices, but that just alienates customers *and* puts more money in Qualcomm's pockets.

South Korea apparently agrees, considering the fine they just levied against them.

because you only listen to one side of the story from Apple. charging based on % of phone price makes it fair market for the low entry OEMs. They can afford Qualcomm's modem and IP and enter the mobile market to compete.

If Qualcomm's royalty fee is reasonable or not, that's another question.

 

[macbeta]

Can Intel make CDMA capable chips yet? Apple can't release an iPhone that doesn't support CDMA, can it?

Nope, well they can probably make them, however they don't own the Patents.

 

[kdarling]

Although CDMA is used in a form of WCDMA, Qualcomm does not own the proprietary rights to UTMS.

Correct, however Qualcomm is still ultimately paid by those who do.

Hence why intel/Infineon can make 3G phones in the US but they can’t make 3G CDMA modems. Qualcomm already strongarmed Broadcom, they’re not going to out muscle Apple

Intel can make CDMA 2000 modems all they want. And reportedly they will be doing so soon. Anyone can make and sell such.

But they don't come with end user (phone maker) software licenses. Modem chips are just fancy DSPs. They're silicon, not software. They're like CPUs that come without an OS.

 

[imaginex20]

Correct, however Qualcomm is still ultimately paid by those who do.



Intel can make CDMA 2000 modems all they want. And reportedly they will be doing so soon. Anyone can make and sell such.

But they don't come with end user (phone maker) software licenses. Modem chips are just fancy DSPs. They're silicon, not software. They're like CPUs that come without an OS.

You just said what I said. They can make it but can’t sell in the US. Broadcom used to make modems too but Qualcomm took them to the cleaners and left the business...

 

[FFR]

Correct, however Qualcomm is still ultimately paid by those who do.



Intel can make CDMA 2000 modems all they want. And reportedly they will be doing so soon. Anyone can make and sell such.

But they don't come with end user (phone maker) software licenses. Modem chips are just fancy DSPs. They're silicon, not software. They're like CPUs that come without an OS.

CDMA one/cdma2000 is not the same as UMTS.
Royalties are not paid or owed to qualocomm for UMTS.

 

[WolfSnap]

If Verizon and Sprint would quit using CDMA, this would be a non issue

Verizon is 100% LTE. They literally sell Verizon certified GSM only devices with no CDMA ability whatsoever.

Verizon claims to be CDMA so they can sell you a new phone...

 

[kdarling]

You just said what I said. They can make it but can’t sell in the US. Broadcom used to make modems too but Qualcomm took them to the cleaners and left the business...

I never said Intel couldn't sell their chips in the US. That's your claim, and it makes no sense.

As for Broadcom, did you forget back in 2007 when they got Qualcomm equipped phones banned from US import over what, something like two patents? and Verizon ended up having to pay Broadcom a $6 per phone royalty in order to get them released?

 

[69Mustang]

Nope, not at their base technology.

I'm not talking about the specific CDMA One /2000 standards used by e.g. Verizon for their 2G/3G implementation.

I mean the WCDMA radios used worldwide for GSM 3G.

Both types of 3G systems are based on a type of CDMA radio technology. Most GSM users seem not to know this.

Whatcha got on 5G? Word on the street is Qualcomm in knee deep in guiding the next standard and they have a boatload of patents on the wireless front end, along with our good buddies Ericsson, Nokia, and InterDigital. They own "erbody" on modulation, and have a foothold in Core Packet. I don't think Qualcomm is going anywhere, anytime soon.

 

[imaginex20]

Verizon is 100% LTE. They literally sell Verizon certified GSM only devices with no CDMA ability whatsoever.

Verizon claims to be CDMA so they can sell you a new phone...

Did you not see the previous post by me and @kdarling. Stay off the rocks...

 

[CarlJ]

I would prefer Apple to use their own in-house designed modem chips. Imagine every single LTE/5G radio technology and band support!

I would venture a guess they have some people working on this, but the question is, will they be interested enough in it to focus attention (and large quantities of resources) on the problem, to get us a way-better-than-v1.0 chip, on the first try, anytime soon.

The A# series of SoC's, which are fantastic chips now, started as some tweaks on top of fairly stock ARM designs (and have been through, what, 7 generations now?), but I don't know that anyone out there has a great baseband chip design they're willing to license to Apple to iterate upon. And starting from scratch would take a very long time before the design was both as reliable as, and competitive with, Intel/Qualcomm designs.

 

[g000]

because you only listen to one side of the story from Apple. charging based on % of phone price makes it fair market for the low entry OEMs. They can afford Qualcomm's modem and IP and enter the mobile market to compete.

If Qualcomm's royalty fee is reasonable or not, that's another question.

I get that argument by Qualcomm but that in itself is flawed, if I were an automaker and wanted to put a Qualcomm modem into a car I build (hypothetically of course), would it be fair for me to be forced to pay by the same percentage of the car price?

 

[kdarling]

CDMA one/cdma2000 is not the same as UMTS.
Royalties are not paid or owed to qualocomm for UMTS.

Absolutely Qualcomm gets royalties for UMTS 3G using WCDMA.

I think that's one of their bigger revenue makers, if not the biggest.

 

[FFR]

Verizon phone without CDMA... check.

Verizon HTC U11 is one of the first to ditch CDMA support
http://pocketnow.com/2017/06/14/verizon-htc-u11-is-one-of-the-first-to-ditch-cdma-support

Verizon CDMA network EOL

Regarding Verizon’s CDMA 2000 network.
Verizon to shut down 2G CDMA 1X network by the end of 2019
http://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/verizon-to-shut-down-2g-cdma-1x-network-by-end-2019
Verizon Wireless to sunset 2G and 3G CDMA networks by 2021
http://www.fiercewireless.com/wirel...ess-to-sunset-2g-and-3g-cdma-networks-by-2021

 

[xpxp2002]

I have a feeling Apple is just floating rumors to put the pressure on Qualcomm. As said in the post, this could easily change by next summer.

 

[Delgibbons]

Amid an escalating legal battle with Qualcomm, Apple is designing its 2018 iPhones and iPads without Qualcomm LTE chips, reports The Wall Street Journal. Apple is instead considering using only modem chips from Intel and perhaps MediaTek in its next-generation devices.

Qualcomm is allegedly withholding software that Apple needs to test LTE chips in its iPhone and iPad prototypes, necessitating the move.

The Wall Street Journal's sources say Qualcomm stopped sharing the software following the January lawsuit Apple filed against the company, hindering Apple's development efforts, but Qualcomm claims Apple has already tested the chip that would be suitable for the next-generation iPhone.Apple has used Qualcomm modem chips in its devices for many years, but began diversifying last year with the addition of Intel modem chips in the iPhone 7 and the iPhone 7 Plus. The iPhone 8 and the iPhone 8 Plus also use both Intel and Qualcomm chips. In the United States, AT&T and T-Mobile models use chips from Intel, while Verizon and Sprint models use chips from Qualcomm.

According to The Wall Street Journal, Apple's plans to stop using Qualcomm chips in its 2018 devices could still change. Apple could switch suppliers as late as June, three months before the launch of the 2018 iPhone.

Apple and Qualcomm have been embroiled in a legal battle since the beginning of the year after Apple sued Qualcomm for $1 billion, accusing the company of charging unfair royalties for "technologies they have nothing to do with" and failing to pay for quarterly rebates.

Apple stopped paying licensing fees to Qualcomm at that time, as did Apple suppliers. Apple maintains that Qualcomm charges excessive licensing fees by requesting a percentage of an iPhone's entire value, while Qualcomm says its technology is "at the heart of every iPhone."

Qualcomm has since countersued and filed several patent infringement lawsuits against Apple. Qualcomm has also asked the United States International Trade Commission to block imports of some iPhone and iPad models and has requested that China stop manufacturing and selling iPhones.

Article Link: Apple Considering Eliminating Qualcomm Chips From Next Year's iPhones and iPads

Top notch Intel modems with LG quality screens