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According to some estimates the royalties are around $50. Would you be happy to pay that much?

Not sure where you got such a number.

Qualcomm asks 3.25% of the factory price, so they'd get about $7-8 per top iPhone. Minus the billions in rebates they were giving Apple until recently. So possibly around $3-4 net.

And what is the real world benefit?

The billions in R&D each year that Qualcomm (and the other license holders) spend to bring us 4G and soon, 5G. Apple ain't doing that for us. All they care about is more profit for themselves.
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Definitely not the only one but maybe just one in a few.
If Qualcomm is charging Apple same as it is charging other companies, I see no issue. If they are charging Apple more, just because Apple have deeper pockets...... **** them.

If anything, Apple is paying less than some others.

Remember, Apple has no Qualcomm license of their own. Foxconn and the other assemblers use their own license (Foxconn's long predates the iPhone) instead, and their rate did not change when they added Apple to their list of assembly clients. Nor does it change with different modem chips.

That's about as fair as you can get. And yet Apple also managed to get kickbacks, as well.
 
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No problems with my intel modem on my 7 plus:

b7b0ee5fa6d87a10579760e285f0f3a7.jpg


Or 8 plus
df0cf3209da68450afbe6f87f0fdf587.jpg

If you run that test with 1 bar you’ll see the difference apparently. I’d need both modems in the same iPhone to test it in the UK, however we use GSM and LTE, not CDMA.
 
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Tit for tat, shoot yourself in the foot, tie your own hands behind your back, spite your face.

Take your pick
 
Bad example. It wouldn't be based off the car it's in, but on the radio unit in the car. Also, there's a pretty low royalty cap.

You guys need to remember that charging by price is a common practice for things that add value. It allows higher profit makers to subsidize lower profit makers. Same as what's done for say, the Apple App Store. Everyone pays 30%. If your price is lower, you pay less. And vice versa.

Heck, Apple's own initial royalty rate for MFi (Made for iPod/iPhone/iPad) devices was 10% of their retail price, with a $10 minimum. Much higher than Qualcomm's 3.25% rate Apple complains about.

Like Qualcomm, Apple is no stranger to the idea of charging by percentage, or wanting high royalties.

It's not a false analogy. If the royalty rate were based solely on the value of the car's radio, you'd have exactly what Apple would like to have - a rate isolated to the immediate component/subsystem. Sure, the royalty would be higher if Ford sold a deluxe radio radio than the standard radio, but the royalty rate wouldn't (and shouldn't) go up if they put premium tires on the vehicle, or added heated, hand-stitched leather seats, air conditioning, supercharged V-8 engine, etc.

To be fair, the radios in a smartphone have a value that goes beyond simple telephone calls. The cameras in a smart phone are more compelling because the radios make it easy to share those photos with others. The value of having a pocket-sized portable computer is enhanced by its ability to connect to the office (and office servers) when away from a wifi/ethernet network. Gaming on smartphones is more compelling because of its multi-player capabilities. And so on.

However, that argument is a two-way street - None of those features are useless in the absence of a radio. It's a case of the sum being greater than the parts. In such a situation, does any one contributor have a superior claim? If those capabilities were not popularized by Apple, everyone would still have a $50 flip phone, and Qualcomm would be the poorer for it. There's a case to be made for a lower royalty rate for those "value-added" uses, as they depend on other patented technologies and hardware in order to be practical.

This isn't about social justice. High profit margin vs. low profit margin is a business strategy, not a social welfare system. The low cost/low profit margin maker expects to sell far more units, therefore making as much or more profit in the long run. While a lower price certainly benefits those of poorer means, it also benefits those of greater means. Royalty rates are not set with the end user's well-being in mind; they are limited by the price the manufacturers can reasonably expect to get for the products they sell. That price is always going to be higher than the price the customer would prefer to spend.

Qualcomm's preferred royalty system doesn't exist for the benefit of the customer, it's for the benefit of the patent-holder - if every device was sold at a very low price, the patent-holder makes less money. The patent-holder depends on the existence of higher-priced makers to maintain their desired level of revenue. If lower-priced makers force all prices lower, the villain for Qualcomm becomes the low-priced makers. Apple's remarkable ability to maintain or even increase premium device prices defies the conventional Wall St. wisdom - commoditization has yet to come to mobile devices, to Qualcomm's benefit.

While Qualcomm is certainly within its rights to try to make as much money as it can, they're taking quite a gamble. Not only do they risk being paid the same royalty for high-priced phones as they receive for low-priced phones, they also give the competition incentive to cut them from the loop altogether - receiving only standards-essential patent royalties, while other makers walk away with the chip revenues. There's no point tossing accusations of greed around - everyone in this game is doing it for the money.

One way to look at this battle is that Qualcomm claims it's all about the cell phone, while Apple claims it's all about the portable computer. That's not surprising, considering each company's history. My personal bias is in Apple's favor - Steve Jobs certainly didn't set out to put a telephone in everyone's pocket, he set out to put a computer in every pocket - a truly personal computer.

From Apple's perspective, just as ethernet and wifi enhanced the usefulness of the desktop computer, wifi and cellular enhance the usefulness of the pocket computer. Qualcomm, of course, would prefer to say that the cell phone makes the pocket computer possible. Somewhere in the middle... For years I carried pocket computers that had no connection to the outside world - originally, it was an HP 41-C pocket programmable calculator; later, a succession of Palm devices. For a time, I wore a pager on my belt; by the time the Age of Palm came along, I also had a cell phone in my pocket. So it was nice to have all of those rolled into one nice, neat package. It's not chicken-or-egg, it's the more clear-cut evolution from single-cell organisms to symbiotic, multi-cellular organisms.
 
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If you run that test with 1 bar you’ll see the difference apparently. I’d need both modems in the same iPhone to test it in the UK, however we use GSM and LTE, not CDMA.
I have 7 Plus with Intel modem and it works just fine. There is no difference in real world usage. 10 Mbps +/- makes no difference and if the signal is weak it will suck on both regardless of the modem.
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Wouldn’t surprise me if Apple produce a SOC which includes a modem in the future.
They probably could, but they can't escape the patents unfortunately.
 
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According to some estimates the royalties are around $50. Would you be happy to pay that much? And what is the real world benefit?

The best LTE modems are gigabit now and as far as I know nobody is selling a phone that can do that – it's only available in LTE modems you plug into a PC.

We already don't have the "best" modems available, and I honestly don't care wether my modem is 50Mbps or 200Mbps or 1000Mbps.

I want a no compromise phone with the best technology. If that means paying an extra $50, then fine. Especially if it means the difference between having a signal or no signal. I'm not willing to buy an Intel modem AT ANY PRICE. It's either Qualcomm or I don't buy the device.
 
Backpedaling??
You didn’t even know spiro handed over managing the wcdma patent portfolio to via group until you googled it.

Via I know about for other CDMA reasons. Spiro was a minor player.

Shouldn’t you start backpedaling right about now.
Oh wait these are what you claim to be “minor patents”

They are.

The important info that you're missing is that the "WCDMA license" referred to in those websites, is just a license to some WCDMA patents, not all of them nor even the major ones.

The major WCDMA patents are owned by companies not on that list. Specifically, Qualcomm, Huawei, Nokia and Ericsson. See this research paper:

Review of Patents Declared Essential to WCDMA

Ok I was wrong Qualcomm does get royalty from wcdma patents

As I said. Qualcomm and Ericsson came to an agreement in 1999. It was a big deal at the time, because without that deal, nobidy could begin to seriously deploy 3G.

It's not a false analogy.

Using the car is a false analogy. That's like including the house a phone sits in. Using the radio set is correct.

If those capabilities were not popularized by Apple, everyone would still have a $50 flip phone, and Qualcomm would be the poorer for it.

We were already at 100 million smartphone sales a year in 2006 and accelerating. Not to mention all the cellular data uses most people don't consider, from wireless gas meters to remote ATMs.

Qualcomm's preferred royalty system doesn't exist for the benefit of the customer, it's for the benefit of the patent-holder - if every device was sold at a very low price, the patent-holder makes less money.

First off, must I repeat that every major cellular patent holder does the same?

The method has indeed benefited both users and high profit phone makers.

People in third world countries can buy smartphones for as little as $40, from which the maker profits maybe $4. No way can the maker afford paying $4 in royalties. But a maker taking in hundreds can.

And the reason there's even a market for Apple to profit from, is because of all the cheaper handsets. So it's quite fair that they share a tiny bit in making those and the worldwide network possible.

Steve Jobs certainly didn't set out to put a telephone in everyone's pocket, he set out to put a computer in every pocket - a truly personal computer.

Actually, in his first iPhone interviews, Jobs soecifically said he did NOT want the iPhone thought of as a portable computer. That's a later fan conceit.

For years I carried pocket computers that had no connection to the outside world - originally, it was an HP 41-C pocket programmable calculator; later, a succession of Palm devices. For a time, I wore a pager on my belt; by the time the Age of Palm came along, I also had a cell phone in my pocket. So it was nice to have all of those rolled into one nice, neat package. It's not chicken-or-egg, it's the more clear-cut evolution from single-cell organisms to symbiotic, multi-cellular organisms.

Yep, I carried an HP Jornada clamshell starting around 2000 with a CDPD cell card. It ran Win CE and had full IE 4 on it, so I had a portable computer and a nice browser with 640 wide screen even back then.
 
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How about 4G and 5G?

Good point. Qualcomm (and others) also get paid royalties for using LTE on anyone's chip. Even Qualcomm's chips need licenses from other companies.

Qualcomm is just one piece of the whole cellular puzzle. For instance, here are the main LTE players:

image.png

So they're not the sole target of Apple's desire for lower rates. Heck...

Prior to this, Apple tried the exact same rate arguments against Nokia, Ericsson, Samsung and Motorola. Apple simply hopes they'll get a foot in the royalties door somewhere with a sympathetic judge. So far, their attempts have failed. But sooner or later...
 
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and we end up with the ****** intel modems... smh....


We haven't even seen extensive tests and comparisons between the new Qualcomm X16 aka MDM9655 and the Intel XMM 7480 modems and still people complain like there is no tomorrow?

This is the whole TSMC 16nm vs Samsung 14nm story all over again.
 
Not sure where you got such a number.

Qualcomm asks 3.25% of the factory price, so they'd get about $7-8 per top iPhone. Minus the billions in rebates they were giving Apple until recently. So possibly around $3-4 net.



The billions in R&D each year that Qualcomm (and the other license holders) spend to bring us 4G and soon, 5G. Apple ain't doing that for us. All they care about is more profit for themselves.
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If anything, Apple is paying less than some others.

Remember, Apple has no Qualcomm license of their own. Foxconn and the other assemblers use their own license (Foxconn's long predates the iPhone) instead, and their rate did not change when they added Apple to their list of assembly clients. Nor does it change with different modem chips.

That's about as fair as you can get. And yet Apple also managed to get kickbacks, as well.

So in your opinion Apple is just a big bad plain *** bully, trying to muscle everyone out of the market just for their own personal greed and profit. And there is no ounce of truth of what they say about Qualcomm?

So when the case goes in front of the judge, it is going to be thrown out of court and they will ask Apple to pay every single money Qualcomm is asking for?

Is this what you are driving at from the beginning?
 
So in your opinion Apple is just a big bad plain a** bully, trying to muscle everyone out of the market just for their own personal greed and profit. And there is no ounce of truth of what they say about Qualcomm?

No, I've even said (if not here, in previous threads) that Qualcomm does things other companies and governments have chastised them for.

However, their rate method is not one. Even China, who does what they want, and who fined them over other practices, recently reaffirmed Qualcomm's pricing method.

So when the case goes in front of the judge, it is going to be thrown out of court and they will ask Apple to pay every single money Qualcomm is asking for?

Your words, not mine. Like I said, depends on the judge. Apple clearly wants a trial in friendly California.

Previously they faced jury trials in neutral states like Delaware, and they settled out of court before a jury could see the evidence.

The ITC said such rate methods were normal and Apple had simply refused to negotiate.

In other cases before non-California District judges, Apple refused to let the judge set a rate unless it was below $1.

And as mentioned, China just approved Qualcomm's rate for phones sold there.

Is this what you are driving at from the beginning?

I haven't even had a chance to get into such details, because so much time has been wasted correcting misinformation.
 
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and we end up with the ****** intel modems... smh....

It would be nice if people would actually spend time educating themselves about Intel's offering, specifically, the XMM 7560 which is a huge leap over the XMM 7480 which is currently shipping with the iPhone 8 and iPhone X. We have the Internet, spend sometime educating yourself before going on a screed about how Intel sucks, how Apple is doomed and so on and son.
 
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True, Apple apparently thinks they're the only ones who deserve high profits on their work :)

Hey, it's all just business.

Oh, are they, really? Sounds like Qualcomm is doing the opposite. Oh wait ...


From all the info available publicly Apple has a point.
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It would be nice if people would actually spend time educating themselves about Intel's offering, specifically, the XMM 7560 which is a huge leap over the XMM 7480 which is currently shipping with the iPhone 8 and iPhone X. We have the Internet, spend sometime educating yourself before going on a screed about how Intel sucks, how Apple is doomed and so on and son.
There is nothing wrong with the one in 7 Plus too. I had one for the last 11 months and there wasn't a day that i had to specifically blame the modem. It's fine.
 
Oh, are they, really? Sounds like Qualcomm is doing the opposite. Oh wait ...

Eh? Qualcomm clearly thinks everyone should make a profit. In return for theirs, they invent around 3,000 mobile and chip related patents a year, many of which will be used in future communication generations.
 
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The examples I give are:

- A tire literally makes a car move. Do you buy new tires based on the price of the car?
- A toilet literally is needed in every house. Do you buy replacement toilets based on the value of your home?

The modem is a tool like RAM, a CPU, flash storage, etc. No way should there be double dipping for the “privlege” of using the modem.
 
There is nothing wrong with the one in 7 Plus too. I had one for the last 11 months and there wasn't a day that i had to specifically blame the modem. It's fine.

Agreed - there is nothing wrong with the one in the iPhone 7 Plus or the iPhone 8 Plus. I've got the iPhone 8 here in New Zealand with Spark, the signal is rock solid, the battery life is great, the voice quality is superb and the data speeds are exactly what I expect from a phone of this calibre. I'm sure we'll get more people doing benchmarks and comparing numbers but the reality is that for the vast, vast, vast majority of people they'll never get even close to what Qualcomm promises and their experience with Intel will be just as reliable as an iPhone with a Qualcomm modem.

Definitely no complaints on my intel modem iPhone 8 here either.

Remember to turn off your wifi or otherwise it will take advantage of your wifi along with the mobile connection thus giving skewed results. Btw, you might want to edit your image to remove your location. I turned off the wifi connection and got this:

IMG_0005.png


No complaints here, does everything I need - but that won't stop people from uploading thousand word essays on how they're smarter than the engineers in Apple and how they, as the arm chair CEO could run Apple better.
 
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You clearly don't have a clue how engineering works.
Nor you
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I'm siding with Qualcomm on this one. The real bully is Apple. Qualcomm vs Apple is like Steve Wozniak vs Steve Jobs.
Yeah, the engineer getting by by trading on his name vs the genius actually being successful. Because you missed the point Steve Jobs is Apple
 
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