Apple Console...when??

[diamond.g]

I don't think Apple will ever do a TV based gaming system again.

Why? Need games. To everyone that points to how the iPhone could spur that I would like them to revisit how well the Gamecube did even though the Gameboy/Advance/SP were available. Just cause the handheld is doing well doesn't mean the TV console will too.

The only other thing that I wonder about is multiplayer. How is Apple going to handle that? That is one place that Microsoft did a very good job. Sony is still playing catchup.

I do think Apple will do fine with iPhone gaming. We wont see gran turismo, or gears of war, or assassins creed. But we should see puzzle games and things like super monkey ball. Controls are the biggest problem. It has been a really recent thing for peripherals to sell well. And usually that is due to them being bundled with the game (see rock band and guitar hero). iPhone won't get that luxury. So developers wont ever be able to rely on that form of input. So games that need it (think FPS/TPS) and cannot work without it just wont be made.

The final thing that concerns me is the current iTunes process. You buy stuff and that is it. Sure Apple keeps a record of what you buy, but if you ever lose it you are pretty much SOL (yes there are times they will bend the rules but don't always count on it). Some cite, backing up your computer and you wont have to worry about that, this is true. But Apple could also work the licenses to allow continual downloads of stuff that you have already purchased. That way if something were to happen during a download you could just go back and redownload the affected stuff. Or you wouldn't have to worry about backing up the software cause Apple will always host it (we hope).

 

[nagromme]

I don't think Apple will ever do a TV based gaming system again.

Why? Need games. To everyone that points to how the iPhone could spur that I would like them to revisit how well the Gamecube did even though the Gameboy/Advance/SP were available. Just cause the handheld is doing well doesn't mean the TV console will too.

Not the same situation at all. This would be a NEW situation, not seen before. (Besides, just because a handheld is doing well doesn't mean the console will FAIL, either.)

Two things in particular:

1. Xcode. A GREAT--and FREE--dev environment (unlike Nintendo's) and it would be the SAME environment for building both iPhone and AppleTV (or whatever) apps. All Apple devices run a form of OS X and all use Xcode. Developers love Xcode, and the leap from one Xcode platform to another is small.

2. AppleTV already sells without games, so it bypasses the chicken-and-egg console problem. A console with no games is a doorstop. An AppleTV with no games is a home movie and photo viewer Then add games when and if the time is right.

Just as the iPhone is not sold AS a game machine, an AppleTV isn't either--yet both could take off as game platforms in one possible future.

You're right that casual games would be more important than hard-core, and I think that would be true of AppleTV games just as it is for iPhone.

I do think Apple will do fine with iPhone gaming. We wont see gran turismo, or gears of war, or assassins creed.

But we will, apparently, see some warped version of BioShock

http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/iPhone/BioShock/news.asp?c=7016

 

[GFLPraxis]

2. AppleTV already sells without games, so it bypasses the chicken-and-egg console problem. A console with no games is a doorstop. An AppleTV with no games is a home movie and photo viewer Then add games when and if the time is right.

PS3 sells as a Blu-ray player and media streamer as well.

You're right that casual games would be more important than hard-core, and I think that would be true of AppleTV games just as it is for iPhone.

You're mistaken as far as market share goes. Casual games are more important for the extra profit after the fact, but no one buys gaming hardware for the casual games. They buy it for the triple A titles, then after they've played them they buy casual games to keep them occupied and the casual devs rake in tons of money.


But we will, apparently, see some warped version of BioShock

http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/iPhone/BioShock/news.asp?c=7016[/QUOTE]


To your previous post:

* iPhone/iPod Touch platform takes off (done deal)

* Lots of game developers learn Xcode as a result (happening already)

* iPhone GAMING takes off (inevitable)

Great up till here. What do you consider gaming? Mom and pop downloading Bejewelled, or big name franchises from SEGA, Id, EA, Hudson, Natsume, Square Enix, etc.?

Because the latter is not inevitable, and the former will not give the platform any attention, just make some profit silently.

* AppleTV's hardware specs will improve (a matter of time)

* Apple TV gains a new input device, maybe touch-based and/or tilt-based, but at the very least offering pointing, unlike the current remote (easily done--might happen)

Requires that the new model have Bluetooth, and alienates the entire existing market base. People who bought an AppleTV as a media streamer are NOT going to rebuy the AppleTV for gaming capabilities as an extra unless there's strong developer...which there won't be unless the market is proven. Chicken and egg.

* More emphasis on casual games--which are the biggest market. Hard core games cost a lot to make and risk failure if sales are disappointing. But those can certainly be made as well. Look at Wii to prove that having the top hardware specs isn't vital.

Problem is that casual games don't attract buyers. People buy casual games after they own the hardware, but its the hardcore games that attract the initial purchase.

* Gaming is ONE thing it does, not the MAIN thing. Chicken-end-egg problem solved! People already own them--the market is there, so making games is no big risk. Therefore, all kinds of different people will have AppleTVs who are not "gamers" in their own minds but will buy games all the same.

Chicken and egg problem NOT solved, since you're requiring everyone buy a new model AppleTV with bluetooth and better GPU in this scenario.

 

[Ja Di ksw]

This thread should not exist.

 

[nagromme]

PS3 sells as a Blu-ray player and media streamer as well.

But it's a game machine FIRST, primarily marketed and bought as such. AppleTV is a media player first.

You're mistaken as far as market share goes. Casual games are more important for the extra profit after the fact, but no one buys gaming hardware for the casual games.

I'm not mistaken--I have involvement with the games industry, and casual games offer the most profit and least risk... but not on closed platforms like the traditional consoles, where the barrier to becoming a developer is high. Note the emphasis I added to your quote: AppleTV (or its descendent) would not, I predict, be "gaming hardware" first. So buying habits you learn from consoles don't apply. As I've said, if Apple does this, it won't be just "another console," it will be a whole different situation.

Great up till here. What do you consider gaming? Mom and pop downloading Bejewelled, or big name franchises from SEGA, Id, EA, Hudson, Natsume, Square Enix, etc.?

Because the latter is not inevitable, and the former will not give the platform any attention, just make some profit silently.

Ah--I see you're coming from a narrow, traditonal console viewpoint. The latter is what game magazines focus on. Stuff that sells to young males who are the most critical group and the most likely to pirate and cheat! But big money is in the former, and more people buy the former. Both, obviously, are considered "gaming." The former is what is an inevitable success on iPhone. And there's even a common ground in the middle--look at Wii titles, (and even World of Warcraft which has a huge segment of middle-age and female customers). In that same middle ground on iPhone (and someday maybe AppleTV) you have 3D titles like Super Monkey Ball and Cro-Mag Rally. They're not Sudoku, but they're not Crysis either. Casual gamers will play them, but others will too.

I'd also say that innovation happens a lot faster in smaller or casual titles. There are a ton of copycats, but that's not all there is. Because the risk of building a small title is lower than building a AAA title, and because one person or a small team can make their game happen.

Requires that the new model have Bluetooth, and alienates the entire existing market base. People who bought an AppleTV as a media streamer are NOT going to rebuy the AppleTV for gaming capabilities as an extra unless there's strong developer...which there won't be unless the market is proven. Chicken and egg.

None of this is going to happen this summer, or any time in the near future. It's the kind of thing that could happen (I never said will, I said COULD) in the years ahead. New models of AppleTV WILL come. Previous users may feel "alienated" but it will come. It COULD, at some point, include a better controller. Which, if you fear for existing users, could be sold to them with a USB bluetooth dongle. But I see AppleTV 2 (or whatever) not being games-compatible with old AppleTV (because it will have a better GPU), and I see games NOT arriving en masse at launch, but after Apple TV 2 (or whatever) has established itself further. (That establishment in itself is not a sure bet--and I don't claim it to be.)

Meanwhile, the developers will already exist--on Xcode for iPhone.

Problem is that casual games don't attract buyers. People buy casual games after they own the hardware, but its the hardcore games that attract the initial purchase.

Now we are on the same page Except with AppleTV, it wouldn't be hardcore games attracting purchasers, it would be movies. Casual games would come second--just like with the iPhone where phone calls and Internet come first.

Chicken and egg problem NOT solved, since you're requiring everyone buy a new model AppleTV with bluetooth and better GPU in this scenario.

No, not any more than every iPod owner is required to get an iPhone. Yet some will--new models WILL come along--and the platform can take off with time. Not, as I say, this summer, but in the years ahead it is very possible.

People discussing the potential for an Apple console and assuming that means the PS3/Wii/Xbox business model are looking in the wrong direction, I feel.

I see it as very possible that the "casual games" that a tiny segment of the public look down on may take off on AppleTV. That doesn't mean "beating" any other console--I doubt that will happen nor that Apple would care. It means adding a successful new direction to what AppleTV already is.

 

[diamond.g]

So it if it isn't taking the Wii/PS3/360 route then why even call it a console in the gaming sense? I mean we don't call computers consoles.

The casual gamers market is huge. Nintendo has proved that. But Nintendo only does games. Their systems don't do anything else. Apple needs some kick butt titles to show up on the OS X platform (iPhone/AppleTV). Nintendo is freaking Nintendo, they don't need 3rd party devs to be successful. If you notice all of the mainstream game machines have 1st party games that they rely on to get people interested (initially) in their systems. Apple will probably need that in order to attract people, otherwise you will just get ports of existing games with "waggle" just tacked on. <-- Wii syndrome...

 

[whooleytoo]

Problem is that casual games don't attract buyers. People buy casual games after they own the hardware, but its the hardcore games that attract the initial purchase.

That's hardly the case with the Wii & DS - aren't Nintendo sales pretty much driven now by casual gaming?

 

[0098386]

That's hardly the case with the Wii & DS - aren't Nintendo sales pretty much driven now by casual gaming?

Going off Brawl being top of the UK sales charts and Mario Kart still in there, and above MGS4 - I'm going to say "no".

 

[nagromme]

So it if it isn't taking the Wii/PS3/360 route then why even call it a console in the gaming sense? I mean we don't call computers consoles.

Call it whatever you like But an AppleTV hooks to a TV, is used from the living room couch and--potentially--make come to play games. I think if there's an answer to the OP's question, AppleTV (in some future incarnation) will be it.

(You don't have to call an iPhone a gaming handheld, or a PDA, or a GPS, or a media player, but it still serves those functions in addition to being a phone.)

 

[whooleytoo]

Going off Brawl being top of the UK sales charts and Mario Kart still in there, and above MGS4 - I'm going to say "no".

I think you and I have EXTREMELY different ideas of what constitutes hardcore gaming, my friend.

I can easily picture a few friends at a party picking up Mario Kart, or Brawl for a laugh, even if they're not really into gaming at all. But MGS4? Err... no.

 

[0098386]

So you're now saying Brawl is a casual game?

 

[nagromme]

A lot of Wii games fall into that middle zone between casual and Halo. Just as the Wii didn't follow the same path as other consoles, Apple's presence in the console market, if any, will be even LESS traditional.

 

[whooleytoo]

So you're now saying Brawl is a casual game?

Not sure, I haven't played it. But if it is a "pick up and play" game, then yes, I'd consider it a casual game. If not, no.

Overall, I think it's telling that the Wii and DS, the two gaming platforms with the greatest appeal to 'softcore'/casual gamers, are the two leading in sales.

 

[pcypert]

Different people mean different things with hardcore. For me Brawl and Mario Kart aren't hardcore but are deep games. They're accessible to a very large population of players and people with widely different wants from gaming. A "hardcore" game for me is one that is complex, and possibly has a story or some other element that might turn off most players. Also one where you'd need to spend a lot of time to feel you've accomplished things...

Anyways, I wouldn't call either of those games hardcore. They're not party games, but not hardcore either. There are some "kiddie" looking hardcore games too, so it's not just about space marines here For me some of the scrolling shooters are the best example of hard core.

 

[liquidh2o]

iphone/ipod touch work nicely for games... then there's Apple's line of desktops/laptops for other games. That covers a pretty large spectrum of games, don't see how an Apple console would gain a large following.

 

[GFLPraxis]

I think you and I have EXTREMELY different ideas of what constitutes hardcore gaming, my friend.

I can easily picture a few friends at a party picking up Mario Kart, or Brawl for a laugh, even if they're not really into gaming at all. But MGS4? Err... no.

0_o

Have you SEEN Brawl's tournament scene in the US? It's gigantic. There's tournaments held in almost every major city in the US, the game has a complex and very deep metagame with all kinds of intricacies that only the advantaced players know, etc. I went to a tournament earlier this week here in WA and I'm going to another tournament in California this Saturday. There's a large tournament with over $1000 in payouts being hosted at a lodge in Oregon on July 19th.

If you think Brawl is not a deep game, you are simply ignorant of it and its enormous community.

Overall, I think it's telling that the Wii and DS, the two gaming platforms with the greatest appeal to 'softcore'/casual gamers, are the two leading in sales.

It's entirely true that the Wii and DS are selling more and do have an emphasis on casuals, but they are also being heavily driven by the existing fanbase who purchases the major titles.

 

[GFLPraxis]

Now we are on the same page Except with AppleTV, it wouldn't be hardcore games attracting purchasers, it would be movies. Casual games would come second--just like with the iPhone where phone calls and Internet come first.

...

No, not any more than every iPod owner is required to get an iPhone. Yet some will--new models WILL come along--and the platform can take off with time. Not, as I say, this summer, but in the years ahead it is very possible.

People discussing the potential for an Apple console and assuming that means the PS3/Wii/Xbox business model are looking in the wrong direction, I feel.

I see it as very possible that the "casual games" that a tiny segment of the public look down on may take off on AppleTV. That doesn't mean "beating" any other console--I doubt that will happen nor that Apple would care. It means adding a successful new direction to what AppleTV already is.

Okay, so I see what you're coming from. See, the idea behind the OP in this thread was the idea of Apple releasing a gaming console with big name titles and big name developers.

What you are suggesting is that Apple will, in three or four years, start selling little casual minigames on the AppleTV, but will never have AAA titles like Halo, and might actually attract a sizable developer base with small apps in that vein, and would make a notable profit off of such microtransactions.

I entirely agree with that assessment, in that case. Seems like we were simply misunderstanding each other

 

[nagromme]

Yeah, I was following up on a post in the middle where I talked about AppleTV. A traditional-style AAA console? You're right--ain't happening!