Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Yes, if one has a bit of understanding of philosophy, or especially philosophy of mind, the problem is quickly recognized. It isn't even about superiority, the two aren't in the same category. That doesn't mean the technology is useless, but I'd limit it to assistive capacities (and even then, it could be dangerous).

Exactly. The tech has its place ... (e.g. maintaining speed, warning of possible collisions), so let's put it to use for those tasks, but still keep the human in the driver's seat overseeing everything that's going on.

What scares me is that people who don't understand technology have an unshakeable (over)confidence in technology ... and such people are often shocked when tech f***s up. Tech is not infallible, and people need to realize that. If we give tech the drivers seat in a car, I'm sure a lot of people would be perfectly happy with their reduced responsibilities and not realize the dangers. It is up to those who do understand the limitations of tech to ensure that that overconfidence doesn't take over.
 
Exactly. The tech has its place ... (e.g. maintaining speed, maintaining throttle position, warning of huge object 100m ahead in road at night), so let's put it to use for those tasks, but still keep the human in the driver's seat overseeing everything that's going on.

What scares me is that people who don't understand technology have an unshakeable (over)confidence in technology ... and such people are often shocked when tech f***s up. Tech is not infallible, and people need to realize that. If we give tech the drivers seat in a car, I'm sure a lot of people would be perfectly happy with their reduced responsibilities and not realize the dangers. It is up to those who do understand the limitations of tech to ensure that that overconfidence doesn't take over.

Yea. I was a data operations IT person for a Fortune 100 for a number of years, and my motto that keep things from falling apart was to never trust automation/technology. :)

There are a lot of people seeing lots of $$$ right now. They couch this in saving lives, but that isn't really the main emphasis. If we really cared about saving lives, we would get more serious about vetting and training (ongoing) drivers, with more harsh penalties for doing many of the things that will obviously lead to accidents and death.
 
Yea. I was a data operations IT person for a Fortune 100 for a number of years, and my motto that keep things from falling apart was to never trust automation/technology. :)

There are a lot of people seeing lots of $$$ right now. They couch this in saving lives, but that isn't really the main emphasis. If we really cared about saving lives, we would get more serious about vetting and training (ongoing) drivers, with more harsh penalties for doing many of the things that will obviously lead to accidents and death.

Yeah, $$$ is definitely at the root of a lot of evils. The whole "saving lives" thing is a nice cover story as there is in a lot of financially/politically motivated farces.

I worked as a software engineer for 8 years. To me, it's a given that tech f***s up, all the time. If it didn't, a lot of people would be jobless :)

I listen to a spiritual teacher who once talked about self-driving cars ... "Even the most powerful computer in the world cannot yet drive a car from point A to B. However, a human being, apparently doesn't need to be all that intelligent to be able to do so quite easily." :)
 
That sums it up for me. That is reason enough not to allow this self-driving cars farce.

Personally, I believe that one form of intelligence (human brain) can never create another more advanced form of intelligence. In other words, whatever the human brain creates will always have a subset of the intelligence of the human brain. We cannot create something smarter than us.

Even in the field of aviation, where traffic collisions are much more improbable (due to much lower traffic density and vertical separation provided by ATCs), they have done numerous studies on human behavior vs machine behavior. Airbus believes more strongly in giving computers control in emergency cases vs humans (and this has backfired countless times). Boeing believes more in giving humans control in emergency cases (and of course, pilot error remains a major factor in most accidents).

All said and done, the human brain is far superior when it comes to real-time creative problem solving. And, the "real-time" part of that is of particular importance in the operation of an automobile. So is the "creative" part of it, because, as you mentioned, there are infinite edge cases that no computer can cover comprehensively.

Ya, but we only go on auto-pilot, because the skies are no where near as bad as the roads.. That's the problem.

Far less traffic in the skies cross path than the roads.. Thus, auto-pilot works better, because of that.
If all drivers on the roads adhered to road rules, even when taking control, they would not due U-turns at traffic lights and ignore any autonomous voice, how can you call that safe ?

but in reality, that's how how it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SteveW928
And there was another Tesla semi-automous incident. This time with a Model S. This stuff just isn't ready for prime time and is one area where I really don't want it ever to be. I hate being a passenger. I like to drive and be in control. If I wanted autonomous driving, I would just hail a cab instead of owning a car.

Before we know it, it will be illegal to actually drive a car inside cities for "safety reasons." Imagine how much it will suck to have to sit in a car going 25 mph and stopping as soon as a light turns yellow even if you have enough time to take it or actually turning with jaywalking pedestrians in places like Manhattan. The AI in the car would never make the damn turn causing gridlock like never seen before!
 
And there was another Tesla semi-automous incident. This time with a Model S. This stuff just isn't ready for prime time and is one area where I really don't want it ever to be. I hate being a passenger. I like to drive and be in control. If I wanted autonomous driving, I would just hail a cab instead of owning a car.

Before we know it, it will be illegal to actually drive a car inside cities for "safety reasons." Imagine how much it will suck to have to sit in a car going 25 mph and stopping as soon as a light turns yellow even if you have enough time to take it or actually turning with jaywalking pedestrians in places like Manhattan. The AI in the car would never make the damn turn causing gridlock like never seen before!

Or, much worse, like the lady that got run over in Arizona by the Uber test vehicle. Imagine being confined to being a passenger and witnessing just running over some person or kid and not being able to do anything about it. Or, your car pulling out in front of a semi or train and all you can do is scream.

And, then enter hackers, or be sure you don't cross the wrong powerful person/gov't, as it would be really easy to arrange an accident.

What gets me, is the level of blind-faith in this stuff. I hate to talk ill of the dead, but the Apple employee that was killed in San Francisco had repeatedly noted how the car almost hit the spot that eventually killed him... yet he apparently had faith it was doing its job properly.

If you have driving experience and watch some of the Tesla footage of people using the auto-pilot, it is scary as heck. No way I'd be using it if I owned one. Or, those videos of people standing in front of the car doing experiments and such. Total Darwin Awards material there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 0002378
Why did Apple stock recently drop to around $150, then? Did the company suddenly lose a bunch of value and regain it in a matter of weeks? I'm all for long term investing, and largely agree with the principals you're putting out there, but I'm just noting that too much of it is a legitimized form of gambling for the wealthy these days. (i.e.: not investment, but speculation... which is bad for the investment side)

But, my main point in regards to Apple, is that I've watched Apple for over 30 years now. I've been one of those 'evangelists' for the company. I was telling people to buy AAPL back in the 90s (when all the financial experts were thinking they were doomed), because the products were so excellent and the foundational principals of the company were so good, that if they didn't go out of business (not likely, even then), they were insanely valuable.

Today, however, I'm questioning this. Not in the near-term, but long-term. From what I've seen, their fundamentals have shifted, and I'd say, not for the better. They have tons of cash and even more image and brand momentum... and yes, the numbers are stellar. But, that could all change if they don't shape up. Product excellence and attention to UX are what brought Apple their success. Pie-chart and marketing driven design, fashion, and just OK services aren't going to cut it long term.
Why did it go to $150? Because stocks, particularly manipulated ones like Apple, behave irrationally at times. Where is it now? $150 was a gift, so hope you picked up a few shares.

Investing is nothing like gambling, or you’re doing it wrong. Buying quality companies and/or index funds consistently over time will make you rich, period. Selling Apple at $150 because it went down is precisely why people think investing is gambling. They don’t understand what they own so instead of buying more at $150, they panic and sell at the bottom. I love when Apple goes down because I add on the cheap.

When the numbers say something is changing, my thesis will change. Your opinion their products and UI are worse than before are simply your own opinions.
 
Many statements in this tread seems to separate the human from the equation of our current tech screwing up and causing incidents. As self-driving cars are still in the trial phase, of course there are screw ups. The tech is still being developed. But, many of the incidents we've witnessed are due to human decisions, such as the Uber management decision to use less sensors in Arizona, and the lawmakers of Arizona not requiring higher reporting standards.
 
I'll be shocked if Apple licenses its self-driving tech to other companies. That's just not how they do things. We all know what happened way back when they licensed MacOS. I'm sure plenty of third parties would love to build iOS-based devices today, but Apple would never go that route. So I find it hard to believe that they will do it with a self-driving system.

CarPlay is a possible analogy though where they do license to Headless player manufacturers.
 
I'll be shocked if Apple licenses its self-driving tech to other companies. That's just not how they do things. We all know what happened way back when they licensed MacOS. I'm sure plenty of third parties would love to build iOS-based devices today, but Apple would never go that route. So I find it hard to believe that they will do it with a self-driving system.
They’ve been trying to get involved in partnerships but no sensible car manufacturer will partner with them.
No car brand wants Apple to become their brand/customer in-between - dictating the UX.
Same for Google - which is why Alphabet spun out their initiative
 
Random thoughts:
  1. We already have a mostly automated system for airline air travel, and it works pretty well. Not perfect, but accident rates have gone down over the decades.
  2. Cars will be a lot harder to completely automate. Not impossible, but more difficult, especially in the early stages when you have mostly human drivers mixed with automated cars.
  3. Who is going to pay for whatever system upgrades need to be done to city/county/state roads? What about dirt roads?
  4. What if a state can’t afford to upgrade roads or markings or sensors if that is needed? Or even if it can afford it but doesn’t want to be forced to pay?
  5. Who or what is responsible for accidents when they do happen?
  6. Most automated systems need to be checked periodically. What happens if someone doesn’t do it on schedule?
This isn’t some black or white, use it or ignore it decision.
 
CarPlay is a possible analogy though where they do license to Headless player manufacturers.

While I get your point, I don’t think CarPlay is comparable to a self driving system. One is rather simple. The other is not. Think of all the different sensors and components involved in a self driving system. CarPlay is pretty much just an iPhone interface and is completely self-contained within the stereo unit. A self driving system would need to interface with and support numerous different sensors and pieces of hardware. The only way I see it working is if Apple partners with one manufacturer exclusively, but I’m not sure what a car company gains in such a scenario. That said, I also find it pretty hard to imagine Apple getting into the car business too, so I’m pretty baffled by what they’re doing.
 
I think these self driving initiatives and testing and future development is really really cool. With Apples money, sure, Go for it. if you can innovate in the space.

I'm just more curious what Apple's practical application for their car fleet is. are they going to make self driving cars? are they trying to develop technologies to sell to existing manufacturers? are they just creating a fleet to help with their mapping initiatives? Some of these make more sense than others, but right now, all I know is they are working on stuff in this space with seemingly little known about what their plans are.
[doublepost=1526402826][/doublepost]
Yea. I was a data operations IT person for a Fortune 100 for a number of years, and my motto that keep things from falling apart was to never trust automation/technology. :)

Until you're replaced by a small shell script of course ;)

I'm in data operations for financial institution. AUtomation is key these days. if it can't be automated, reliably, with monitoring, it's not wanted anymore.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you that automation involves it's own share of risks, But with everything going real time these days, Automation is insanely important to ensuring that things happen instantaneously. In the world of Finance, if it's not immediate, you've lost money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SteveW928
I don’t think it will happen because what auto company needs Apple? Self driving and autonomous vehicle systems are about a lot more than the look/navigation of the UI on the dashboard. And most auto companies have already been working on this stuff for years. Also like you say it’s not Apple’s MO to license software for use with someone else’s hardware. Either Apple is working on its own vehicle or working with another company on a fleet of ride-sharing vehicles.

Agreed. I don’t see what a car manufacturer has to gain by partnering with Apple. As you said, these companies have all been working on their own systems. Giving Apple control of this core functionality makes no sense. Plus given how computerized cars have become and how much hardware will be involved in self driving systems, I don’t see how a third party self driving system is an advantage over a homegrown one.
 
Why did it go to $150? Because stocks, particularly manipulated ones like Apple, behave irrationally at times. Where is it now? $150 was a gift, so hope you picked up a few shares.

Investing is nothing like gambling, or you’re doing it wrong. Buying quality companies and/or index funds consistently over time will make you rich, period. Selling Apple at $150 because it went down is precisely why people think investing is gambling. They don’t understand what they own so instead of buying more at $150, they panic and sell at the bottom. I love when Apple goes down because I add on the cheap.

When the numbers say something is changing, my thesis will change. Your opinion their products and UI are worse than before are simply your own opinions.

Yes, I totally get that... stock manipulation and speculation. As one of my friends who does a lot of playing in the Market says, if it were purely about investment, the rules would be different. It's kind of purposely setup this way, and I think the social media, rapid (un-investigative) MSM and such have driven this irrationality to new heights.

Unfortunately, like when Apple was $10/share, I don't have the extra money to invest. I only invest with money that is extra, for the most part (aside from retirement funds, etc.), and it wasn't a good time. I told others to buy, though, and that the hysteria was crazy (and why).

So, I think we're in agreement besides where Apple might be headed. My concerns aren't typical, Steve's gone so they are doomed (which I argued against in the past), or rumors of parts ramp-downs, or so many of the other silly things in the press that just show a lack of understanding. My opinion comes from being a 30+ year close follower of everything Apple (which, as you said, is how you should invest, and I agree).

I see a fundamental change to Apple's values and business practices, and it scares me. Thesis 1 is that with change of leadership and their insanely rapid growth, these things are growing pains which will be corrected. I hope that's the case, but that doesn't explain other aspects of their behavior. So, Thesis 2, is that their values and priorities have actually changed, which I think means long-term trouble.

Note, I'm talking a decade or two from now... nothing immediate. But, if they lose the creatives and content producers; their lineup continues heading towards consumer gadgets and fashion; they prioritize marketing-driven design over just making the best stuff possible; they continue to slip in terms of QC and good UI design; then the brand will erode and their success will become much more unstable.
[doublepost=1526405044][/doublepost]
But, many of the incidents we've witnessed are due to human decisions, such as the Uber management decision to use less sensors in Arizona, and the lawmakers of Arizona not requiring higher reporting standards.

I'd say most of the incidents have come down to humans, falsely trusting the technology too much.
Even in the Arizona death- while there seems to be some question about settings around sensor sensitivity - the software detected the person and ignored her, or mistook her for a piece of garbage in the street.

But, yea, it certainly does come down to lawmakers though... they shouldn't be allowing this kind of danger on the roads, period. They are also allowing $$$ to overtake their common sense (assuming they have any).

Cars will be a lot harder to completely automate. Not impossible, but more difficult, especially in the early stages when you have mostly human drivers mixed with automated cars.

Yes, if we could put these things on closed tracks and all automated, I'm sure they'd do just fine. That isn't the real world. Also, the problem here isn't one of scale, but of kind.

That said, I also find it pretty hard to imagine Apple getting into the car business too, so I’m pretty baffled by what they’re doing.

I think they are just in it because they think they have to be.

Until you're replaced by a small shell script of course ;)

I'm in data operations for financial institution. AUtomation is key these days. if it can't be automated, reliably, with monitoring, it's not wanted anymore.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you that automation involves it's own share of risks, But with everything going real time these days, Automation is insanely important to ensuring that things happen instantaneously. In the world of Finance, if it's not immediate, you've lost money.

Oh yea, we had tons of automation. Besides watching all the automated stuff, automating it further and automating new stuff was mostly what I did. What I meant was that I never really trusted any of it. When I'd go on vacation, some of my peers often did trust it too much, and Murphy generally picked that time to strike. There is no such thing as set it and forget it.

The upshot here, is that the automated car will seemingly be doing just fine, until it isn't. It's an impossible task. The only thing they *might* be able to pull off is making it safer than a texting teen or a drunk. But, that isn't saying too much.

What I mainly want from this is assistive technologies. Like, detect that Moose off in the forest heading for the road, or maybe alert me of objects moving around me that I might not be able to track all of them, especially if they are in 'blind spots' or stuff like that. Maybe even have emergency braking when it's clear I've missed something.
 
Yes, I totally get that... stock manipulation and speculation. As one of my friends who does a lot of playing in the Market says, if it were purely about investment, the rules would be different. It's kind of purposely setup this way, and I think the social media, rapid (un-investigative) MSM and such have driven this irrationality to new heights.

Unfortunately, like when Apple was $10/share, I don't have the extra money to invest. I only invest with money that is extra, for the most part (aside from retirement funds, etc.), and it wasn't a good time. I told others to buy, though, and that the hysteria was crazy (and why).

So, I think we're in agreement besides where Apple might be headed. My concerns aren't typical, Steve's gone so they are doomed (which I argued against in the past), or rumors of parts ramp-downs, or so many of the other silly things in the press that just show a lack of understanding. My opinion comes from being a 30+ year close follower of everything Apple (which, as you said, is how you should invest, and I agree).

I see a fundamental change to Apple's values and business practices, and it scares me. Thesis 1 is that with change of leadership and their insanely rapid growth, these things are growing pains which will be corrected. I hope that's the case, but that doesn't explain other aspects of their behavior. So, Thesis 2, is that their values and priorities have actually changed, which I think means long-term trouble.

Note, I'm talking a decade or two from now... nothing immediate. But, if they lose the creatives and content producers; their lineup continues heading towards consumer gadgets and fashion; they prioritize marketing-driven design over just making the best stuff possible; they continue to slip in terms of QC and good UI design; then the brand will erode and their success will become much more unstable.
All of that is purely speculation and not based on any quantitative facts.

You can't predict business or even anything other than the sun will come up when you're talking 20 years out. Impossible. That's why you have to watch the numbers and project based on the facts.

"I don't like FaceID, so Apple seems to be headed the wrong direction," or "Apple has too many software bugs" (or insert the statement) is not anything on which to base an investment thesis.
 
All of that is purely speculation and not based on any quantitative facts.

You can't predict business or even anything other than the sun will come up when you're talking 20 years out. Impossible. That's why you have to watch the numbers and project based on the facts.

"I don't like FaceID, so Apple seems to be headed the wrong direction," or "Apple has too many software bugs" (or insert the statement) is not anything on which to base an investment thesis.

You can tell when a business is headed in the right or wrong direction. Eventually, this will impact their sales, which will eventually impact the stock price... once the 'investors' get clued into it. The real investors who are paying attention will know more quickly.
 
You can tell when a business is headed in the right or wrong direction. Eventually, this will impact their sales, which will eventually impact the stock price... once the 'investors' get clued into it. The real investors who are paying attention will know more quickly.
I already said if the facts change, it will be evident in the numbers. My whole reason for quoting you originally was to tell you the numbers say nothing but positive for Apple right now.

Your prediction for an impact on sales is based on your own opinions and speculation.

Again, when the facts change, I change.
 
I think they are just in it because they think they have to be.

I don’t know about that. They’ve hired a lot of folks and put a lot of resources into it. It’s hard to imagine them making that kind of commitment without some sort of end game in mind.
[doublepost=1526412446][/doublepost]
I already said if the facts change, it will be evident in the numbers. My whole reason for quoting you originally was to tell you the numbers say nothing but positive for Apple right now.

Your prediction for an impact on sales is based on your own opinions and speculation.

Again, when the facts change, I change.

The numbers are positive. But I hear a lot of grumbling about Apple today. Nevermind the folks here. I’m talking about people I know personally. I’m the tech guy among my friends and family. A few years ago everyone was in love with Apple. Today I hear a lot of frustration. Most of the complaints are UI related. iOS is a terrible UI, full of hidden functions and inconsistent behavior. And it gets worse every version, not better.

Apple is a behemoth today. They don’t fall fast. As a longtime customer and investor (35 years), I’m starting to see some serious cracks. I’m very happy with the stock, obviously, but I’m also very concerned about product quality issues, half-baked new products, delays and excuses, and a general lack of vision coming out of Cupertino.

I see others catching up while Apple focuses on nickel and dining customers with services. I find the Mac hardware totally boring and uninspired these days, not to mention overpriced. I’m going to keep my old 2013 MBP for as long as possible. For the first time in 35 years, I’m not sure my next computer will come from Apple. I don’t really want a computer that can’t be repaired or upgraded. But more to the point, I want some innovation on the desktop. Say what you will about Microsoft, but they completely bested Apple with the Surface desktop, especially if you’re a creative user. Being able to tilt into easel mode and use a stylus is awesome. Apple’s Pencil is fantastic. Why can’t a Mac do what Surface does? Instead all we get is thinner, fewer ports, higher prices, tons of glue and no upgradeable components.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SteveW928
I don’t know about that. They’ve hired a lot of folks and put a lot of resources into it. It’s hard to imagine them making that kind of commitment without some sort of end game in mind.
[doublepost=1526412446][/doublepost]

The numbers are positive. But I hear a lot of grumbling about Apple today. Nevermind the folks here. I’m talking about people I know personally. I’m the tech guy among my friends and family. A few years ago everyone was in love with Apple. Today I hear a lot of frustration. Most of the complaints are UI related. iOS is a terrible UI, full of hidden functions and inconsistent behavior. And it gets worse every version, not better.

Apple is a behemoth today. They don’t fall fast. As a longtime customer and investor (35 years), I’m starting to see some serious cracks. I’m very happy with the stock, obviously, but I’m also very concerned about product quality issues, half-baked new products, delays and excuses, and a general lack of vision coming out of Cupertino.

I see others catching up while Apple focuses on nickel and dining customers with services. I find the Mac hardware totally boring and uninspired these days, not to mention overpriced. I’m going to keep my old 2013 MBP for as long as possible. For the first time in 35 years, I’m not sure my next computer will come from Apple. I don’t really want a computer that can’t be repaired or upgraded. But more to the point, I want some innovation on the desktop. Say what you will about Microsoft, but they completely bested Apple with the Surface desktop, especially if you’re a creative user. Being able to tilt into easel mode and use a stylus is awesome. Apple’s Pencil is fantastic. Why can’t a Mac do what Surface does? Instead all we get is thinner, fewer ports, higher prices, tons of glue and no upgradeable components.
Sorry, but the "grumbling" you hear is totally irrelevant and speculation. Apple is a nearly $1T company. How could there not be grumbling? You're overrating small issues, extrapolating them, and ignoring facts.

Why wouldn't you wait until the numbers change to change your investment thesis? Every single person who has predicted the demise or even the slowdown of Apple has been straight up wrong.

Short answer, the Surface and other competitors don't use iOS ad Mac OS.

Forget all the sales numbers. They are stellar. Are you totally discounting that they are going to change AR/VR in a big way? Cars? Other stuff?

And the buyback. Oh, the buyback. I don't care if their sales don't grow at all. They are buying back $100B in stock, very quickly and make $55B in earnings annually.

The numbers speak for themselves. Sure, it can all change. It can slowdown. It can crash and burn. But you'll see it in the numbers. See their 2018 Q1 and Q2 reports? Breathtaking. Everything you're referencing sounds like someone reading too much MacRumors.
 
Spotted one in the wild this morning...
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4772.jpg
    IMG_4772.jpg
    641.9 KB · Views: 67
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.