Apple Could Owe More Than $8 Billion in European Tax Probe

[JimmyHook]

Why do people think that a deal with the GOVERNMENT of Ireland is illegal???? Again... Apple has a deal with the GOVERNMENT of Ireland. Need a civics lesson haters?
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big Apple supporter here, but Apple has to pay ....
They basically cheated on EU taxes, with the complicity of Ireland government.
It is shameful, because Apple charge ridiculously higher prices in Europe compared to US, and they are avoiding taxes.

The deal with the Irish GOVERNMENT predates every EU law

 

[Larry-K]

They can buy Greece, why not? (Not a good idea)

I can hardly wait for iGyros.

 

[Alenore]

That's insanity! Assuming that Apple didn't bribe anyone or the such, then apple shouldn't be responsible if Ireland enacted an illegal tax deal. The whole concept violates the assumption of the rule of law.

If you turn down a street and see a "50 MPH" sign, do you drive 50 MPH? how do you know that the official that set that speed limit really had the authority? Or if he filed all the appropriate paperwork? Or he got all the appropriate permissions? Would it be legal (or moral) for the state to then come after all the drivers who drove on that road for violating speed laws? even though they followed the law ostensibly created and enforced by the entity that has direct jurisdiction?

Common sense would dictate that, given the erroneous "50 MPH" speed limit, that the state government should go after the local mayor/governor/magistrate that set this incorrect speed limit and get it changed to the correct one, not retroactively go after the citizens following the rules set-forth by the person in direct authority over them.

In the same vein, if Ireland's taxes are illegal, then the EU should force Ireland to fix it, and possibly even hold some legislators accountable, but it is unconscionable to force people, and companies that are under these legislators jurisdictions to be responsible for the actions of the government.

In fact it often works like that in administrative law (and EU law is pretty much the same kind : administrative law on a bigger scale), though I don't know about american law much.
Jurisprudence always take effect retroactively here. As for administrative, if you consider a contract is voided, then it hsouldn't have had any effect and thus both parties are required to fix that.

Edit > Oh, as for your example of 50 MPH. It wouldn't work here, as it's civil law and not administrative. Most if not all civil laws are never retroactive, same with penal laws (with a few exceptions).

 

[8281]

I think Apple has better things to do then lobby for tax code changes, certainly not if it would cost them money.

Are you kidding? Companies spend huge amounts of money lobbying. And I bet lobbying would be cheaper than a tax fraud fine.
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Is it moral when a government spends more than it take in, and then borrows the rest? The US has a total debt of nearly $19 trillion dollars, and that doesn't include the unfunded liabilities like pensions. Who is going to pay that? The young kids, many here on this board, as well as kids not yet born. They're going to get stuck with this sooner or later, and its going to reduce their quality of life.

So spare me your faux morality lesson. If Apple played straight with the laws, leave them alone. Otherwise fine them. But don't for a second call what they are doing immoral. Look to your government and call their financial situation immoral, because it really is.

The federal government's finances aren't the same as a family's even though they are constantly talked about that way. A government often spends more during a recession to help families and companies weather the storm. Or would it be moral to let people starve? Or should we stop paying grandmas SS? And don't talk about cutting waste because that alone won't be enough to balance a budget.

When the economy recovers the fed takes more money in and reduces its spending on stimulus. Most of the fed debt is owned by US citizens by the way.

I take no issue with balancing a budget, but it's dishonest to push the idea that the Feds finances are akin to yours or mine. It doesn't work that way.

 

[furi0usbee]

And of course every year you volunteer to pay extra tax, just for the heck of it. Even though you know paying what the tax laws specify, is legal.

No. I will tell you I want to pay as little tax as possible. And if setting up an office in Ireland would benefit me, I'd do it too. Only I just told you the truth, whereas Tim will never tell you that.

I never said they are not paying what they owe in Ireland. I'm saying they are only in Ireland because it's the smallest amount they need to pay. There is a big difference.

Like the rest of us, Tim hates paying taxes and wants to do anything he can to avoid them, within the law hopefully.

 

[GadgetDon]

No. I will tell you I want to pay as little tax as possible. And if setting up an office in Ireland would benefit me, I'd do it too. Only I just told you the truth, whereas Tim will never tell you that.

I never said they are not paying what they owe in Ireland. I'm saying they are only in Ireland because it's the smallest amount they need to pay. There is a big difference.

Like the rest of us, Tim hates paying taxes and wants to do anything he can to avoid them, within the law hopefully.

Tim Cook didn't say it because it's obvious. Because anyone who doesn't think that Apple tries to keep its tax bill as low as it legally can is either completely ignorant of big business or really stupid.

What Tim Cook said was garbage was the argument that they weren't paying the taxes they were required to pay. And in the 60 minutes interview, the subject was US taxes which isn't at all in dispute.

 

[TallManNY]

Comments like this make me laugh. This has nothing to do with timezones, it's all about looking for a tax haven.

TZ difference between NY and Dublin = 5 Hours
TZ difference between NY and Sydney = 6 Hours

Umm, I know Ireland was picked for the tax haven. However the time zone issue is relevant.

By the way, have you done international business? I have. In fact I've done a bit of international structuring with an eye toward things like taxes, including things like weighing the pros and cons of using Bermuda versus BVI holding companies versus forming a company in Singapore. I've literally done the process of deciding where to form a holding company in order to reduce tax burden. There are countries with favorable tax regimes all over the place. But it is actually a real hassle to work with someone who is way off your time zone. So for example, I decided not to use Singapore as a jurisdiction because I'm in the U.S. and it would be a pain to work with lawyers and accountants in Singapore.

And Sydney is 16 hours ahead of NY and, much more relevant for Apple, 19 hours ahead of San Fran. So when you are working on Friday it is the weekend in Sydney. When they come in on Monday you are watching football on Sunday. If you work a normal five day week in Sydney, then you only have three days per week when you and your counterpart in San Fran are doing normal working days that kind of overlap. It is much easier to work with Ireland or London.

 

[dampfnudel]

I doubt it Apple would ever have to pay anywhere close to 8 billion, but even 1 billion would hurt.

 

[beanbaguk]

Because they are blinded by Apples clever marketing.

That would include 99.9% of people on this forum....

 

[opeter]

And Apple has been in Ireland since 1980.

That's over 35 years... is the EU just now catching on?

Well, yes. The EU is a slow bureaucratic dinosaur ...
If you are follwing the news, you can see, how they simply cannot find a solution, to control/master the migrant crisis.

 

[username:]

The EU's law system get the priority over any country laws. Mostly because it needs a way to have countries behave and follow the rule everyone edicted.

Ex post facto law I guess
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Heck, I do. As do most people who live in a civilised country.

Does that include hacking into your phone and computer and logging your metadata? Even if you believe everything governments do is "for the people" then you have to admit they can be extremely wasteful. Look at Greece.

 

[mrex]

A good examle to avoid paying taxes in countries where you really do your business. I bought an item from Apple store (net). The store is marketed in my country and use the language i speak. When i ordered the item, the item was shipped from eindhoven/netherlands and i paid the price and taxes to ireland / hollyhill industrial estata (hollyhill, cork, ireland).

 

[hagjohn]

Why does anyone defend a multi-billion dollar company from paying their taxes considering how much they benefit from the rest of society?

I'll never ever understand the conservative mindset, it's rather nutty.

Because these people like to pay more in personal income tax. If companies paid their fare share, your taxes could go down (if the bureaucrats don't spend the excess).

 

[a0me]

What I'll never understand is why it is considered greedy to want to keep money that you've earned, but it's NOT considered greedy for someone to take someone else's money that the earner has earned and the taker hasn't.

Taxes pay for almost everything under the sun, roads, schools, healthcare, police, fire departments, national defense, water, sewers, and so on. Without taxes, Apple (and every other companies under the sun) would not even exist.

 

[mrex]

And Apple has been in Ireland since 1980.

That's over 35 years... is the EU just now catching on?

Apple has about 4000 workers in ireland nowadays and apple is going to add 1000 more in ireland. on 1991 apple and the goverment of ireland made an agreement that ireland is the place where apple pay taxes. Apple isnt the only big company doing this, there are also other big companies like Pfizer that bought a small irish company called Allergan and moved its headquarters to ireland to avoid higher taxes... Anyway...

Apple made another agreement on 2007 with ireland again. The senate of the usa stated that the profits from which apple has paid taxes is calculated on the way that apple was able to pay only low taxes. Then 2013 apple admitted that they have paid only about 2% tax rate during last ten years.

On 2014 eu started to investigate if the agreement with ireland has favored apple because of the jobs in ireland and if the agreement is comparable to the (illegal) state aid getting a special treatment.

 

[nebo1ss]

Why do people think that a deal with the GOVERNMENT of Ireland is illegal???? Again... Apple has a deal with the GOVERNMENT of Ireland. Need a civics lesson haters?
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The deal with the Irish GOVERNMENT predates every EU law

Here is a hint with regard to your question. They are perfectly entitled to set up any deal they want with the GOVT of Ireland for income generated in Ireland. The problem is they have been pretending that income generated in UK, Germany, France, Italy etc is actually generated in Ireland. That is the issue in summary.

 

[ScottishDuck]

What I'll never understand is why it is considered greedy to want to keep money that you've earned, but it's NOT considered greedy for someone to take someone else's money that the earner has earned and the taker hasn't.

The interpretation of "earned" when you get into the Millions/Billions has always been something I've found extremely hard to justify.

 

[furi0usbee]

I doubt it Apple would ever have to pay anywhere close to 8 billion, but even 1 billion would hurt.

Yeah, gonna hurt lots.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2015/10/27/apple-stock-whats-wrong/74699704/
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Apple has about 4000 workers in ireland nowadays and apple is going to add 1000 more in ireland. on 1991 apple and the goverment of ireland made an agreement that ireland is the place where apple pay taxes. Apple isnt the only big company doing this, there are also other big companies like Pfizer that bought a small irish company called Allergan and moved its headquarters to ireland to avoid higher taxes... Anyway...

Apple made another agreement on 2007 with ireland again. The senate of the usa stated that the profits from which apple has paid taxes is calculated on the way that apple was able to pay only low taxes. Then 2013 apple admitted that they have paid only about 2% tax rate during last ten years.

On 2014 eu started to investigate if the agreement with ireland has favored apple because of the jobs in ireland and if the agreement is comparable to the (illegal) state aid getting a special treatment.

Apple is only pumping employees into Ireland as of late to make it look like something legit is going on there. They could put 100,000 more and it still would be beneficial with the tax they pay there. So they will have 5000 people who really are doing nothing that 50 in Cupertino couldn't do, just for looks.

 

[CFreymarc]

Classic take the capital away from the new money so the old money stays in power. Do it in "the name of the people" and no one questions the real motive.

Why does anyone defend a multi-billion dollar company from paying their taxes considering how much they benefit from the rest of society?

I'll never ever understand the conservative mindset, it's rather nutty.

Guess you never been really successful in life to see every parasite in the woods show up to feed off your fruits.

 

[Thunderhawks]

Yeah, gonna hurt lots.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2015/10/27/apple-stock-whats-wrong/74699704/
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Apple is only pumping employees into Ireland as of late to make it look like something legit is going on there. They could put 100,000 more and it still would be beneficial with the tax they pay there. So they will have 5000 people who really are doing nothing that 50 in Cupertino couldn't do, just for looks.

You couldn't be more off base.
Besides being attracted by the tax rate and what the Irish politician were willing to give in addition (obvious) they appreciate the high level of education of their employees.
The factory in Cork has been there for quite awhile and of course they run other stuff through there.

Here is a recent and good read about Ireland production:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...eir-european-headquarters-in-cork-333878.html

 

[furi0usbee]

You couldn't be more off base.
Besides being attracted by the tax rate and what the Irish politician were willing to give in addition (obvious) they appreciate the high level of education of their employees.
The factory in Cork has been there for quite awhile and of course they run other stuff through there.

Here is a recent and good read about Ireland production:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...eir-european-headquarters-in-cork-333878.html

High education level, to front a tax avoidance scheme? How smart do you have to be? What exactly do they do there again? I know the computers are designed in California, I know they are made in China, so what do the great folks of Ireland do again? Oh, I just remembered, the funnel all the profits through the small buildings they got going there. I guess you have to be pretty smart to multiply 0.018 x 100000000000.

EDIT: Taxes brought them there originally, so at what time did the high education level of the workforce sway the scales in that direction?

EDIT: There is no "besides being attracted to the tax rate." That's THE reason. Anything else and you are fooling yourself.

EDIT: I don't get it. You can like Apple/Apple's products, and still admit they do what they do to avoid paying $0.01 more than they have to. They have sought out ways to avoid the most tax they can. That at least is not a crime, so why do people here get huffy? Just don't tell me Ireland is the technology Mecca, and Apple needs to get in on that. If they were paying 12.5% (or more) like they could elsewhere in Europe, see ya Ireland.

EDIT: I'm out on this thread. They pop up every now and then, and I find myself just repeating.

 

[Happybunny]

There is also Google who plays the same game as Apple. And Microsoft etc. Most of these company have registered their businesses in Ireland because of low taxes there.

Anyway, the EU needs the money, because the middle east and african migrants are comming daily in thousands. And the flood will not stop.

The UK just wants to keep out, Eastern European freeloaders out of the UK tax credit.
That is why the UKIP is against the EU eastern Europe.

David Cameron insisted his proposal to ban new Eastern European migrants to Britain from claiming benefits was still on the table after a bruising Brussels summit.
Key European leaders lined up to tell the Prime Minister he could not discriminate against European migrants without breaching EU rules and Ukip leader Nigel Farage said Mr Cameron had been 'hammered'.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ns-four-year-curb-migrants.html#ixzz3xQXZ5Hpq
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[ucfgrad93]

Because these people like to pay more in personal income tax. If companies paid their fare share, your taxes could go down (if the bureaucrats don't spend the excess).

Could, but won't go down. Politicians never want to give up money.

 

[Happybunny]

Can you delate post. error error error. sorry sorry sorry sorry.
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The EU should really stick to what it does well and keep its hands off countries tax policies.

Toga Ceilteach to what dead kitty.

Big talk from a country that ask's for ""Ireland asks for €90bn EU bailout"

All because you didn't raise enough tax revenues, or because you are really crap a book keeping, kinda like the Greeks.

 

[samiwas]

Could, but won't go down. Politicians never want to give up money.

Really? Tax rates haven't ever gone down?