Apple Could Owe More Than $8 Billion in European Tax Probe

[Happybunny]

Could, but won't go down. Politicians never want to give up money.

I'm going to answer that as this was a thread about Europe and taxes, Income tax in the Netherlands for the top rate dropped by 20%. That was also 20% across the whole tax rates. So yes it can go down.

Of course we as a nation weren't trillions in debt.

 

[asiga]

Apple could owe more than $8 billion in back taxes [...]

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And that's not counting what Apple owes to the professional customers who made the Mac a success for professional use.

 

[Xerotech]

I wonder how much tax the EU received from the people Apple employs there?

 

[GadgetDon]

Because these people like to pay more in personal income tax. If companies paid their fare share, your taxes could go down (if the bureaucrats don't spend the excess).

If bureaucrats don't spend the excess. And if unicorns are reintroduced to the earth, giving free rides so we can give up cars.

 

[unlinked]

Big talk from a country that ask's for ""Ireland asks for €90bn EU bailout"

All because you didn't raise enough tax revenues, or because you are really crap a book keeping, kinda like the Greeks.

Neither really. It was to do with a housing price collapse. Presumably it wouldn't have been as bad if everyone elses economies hadn't collapsed at about the same time or if the Irish property market hadn't been inflated so much by all the money German banks pumped in.

 

[Max(IT)]

Why do people think that a deal with the GOVERNMENT of Ireland is illegal???? Again... Apple has a deal with the GOVERNMENT of Ireland. Need a civics lesson haters?
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The deal with the Irish GOVERNMENT predates every EU law

I can hardly be defined as an hater....

In my opinion Irish government has to be blamed more tha Apple on this.

 

[thekev]

Could, but won't go down. Politicians never want to give up money.

We currently run at a deficit, so it would be sensible to maximize projected taxes. If there is no deficit, they can simply issue fewer maturing treasury notes. It only makes sense to take in less if things can run effectively on less money without creating new problems.

 

[sudo1996]

Why does anyone defend a multi-billion dollar company from paying their taxes considering how much they benefit from the rest of society?

I'll never ever understand the conservative mindset, it's rather nutty.

Because they aren't breaking any laws, and people want to see the laws fixed instead of there being random witch hunts that screw over corporations. Where do you think jobs come from?
[doublepost=1452989365][/doublepost]

If bureaucrats don't spend the excess. And if unicorns are reintroduced to the earth, giving free rides so we can give up cars.

LOL, I live in a fraternity house, and our yearly budget for housing and other operations is probably the size of a government's daily budget for operating a bus. It's amazing how little we pay when there isn't money disappearing.

 

[69650]

$8bn back taxes for 10 years seems very generous. I was expecting it to be a lot higher. The rest of us have to pay our fair share of personal and business taxes so I don't see why Apple should be any different.

 

[kettle]

So the European Commission should not do its job and investigate issues in European countries? Ok..

The EU can't even do its own book keeping - so this is rather kettle black.

But Apple should pay up - but the first of many more companies to be called out hopefully.

 

[69650]

Because they aren't breaking any laws, and people want to see the laws fixed instead of there being random witch hunts that screw over corporations. Where do you think jobs come from?

And who do you think pays for the education of these Apple employees? Who do you think pays for the roads they use to drive to work? Apple takes out far more from society than it puts back in.

If they can afford to reward greedy fat cat shareholders with a $100bn, they can afford to pay their fair share of local taxes.

 

[pjh]

Can you delate post. error error error. sorry sorry sorry sorry.
[doublepost=1452965912][/doublepost]


Toga Ceilteach to what dead kitty.

Big talk from a country that ask's for ""Ireland asks for €90bn EU bailout"

All because you didn't raise enough tax revenues, or because you are really crap a book keeping, kinda like the Greeks.

I agree. There are two parasites at work here, Apple and the Irish State.

Ireland has positioned itself as a tax favourable destination and is sucking tax revenue out of the rest or Europe.While at the same time handing out the begging bowl to bail them out of a financial crises (much of which was their own doing). I have no idea why the other European states tolerate this.

Apple on the other hand funnels profits out of the Nation where they are clearly earned to avoid tax.

I can't really blame them though. If you have a tax code and political system that facilitates such abuses, then what do you expect? On the other hand, it looks like the party is coming to an end and Apple and the Irish State are going to have to deal with it.

The support for this action is actually from the electorate. People are fed up paying taxes while at the same time seeing the likes of Apple, Amazon and Starbucks pay next to nothing.

 

[mrex]

Why do people think that a deal with the GOVERNMENT of Ireland is illegal???? Again... Apple has a deal with the GOVERNMENT of Ireland. Need a civics lesson haters?
[doublepost=1452908985][/doublepost]
The deal with the Irish GOVERNMENT predates every EU law

apple has been in ireland from 80's and apple has thousends of jobs in ireland. that is fine. all good. the low tax rate is not the only thing here but the eu is investigating if the agreement is illegal and if ireland has favored apple on the way that it can be compare to the state aid so that apple keeps all workplaces in ireland in the future too.

it doesnt matter if the other party is a goverment. the deal can still be illegal and it doesnt mean either that apple wouldnt have known how to play the game with the goverment, until...

 

[Mildredop]

Don't need to be an expert to know a company is trying everything it can do NOT to pay taxes, even if legal.

So, if it's legal, where's the problem?

 

[H2SO4]

I wonder how much tax the EU received from the people Apple employs there?

Probably less than half the amount due. These tax dodgers, (and people that agree), are sickening. Those Apple employees were very likely benefitting from the system they are supposed to be contributing to from the second they were born, in fact probably before that and well into old age.

Guess what;

• Mother in labour - let’s call an ambulance. Paid for by the tax payer.
• On the way to maternity we’ll take the roads. Paid for by the tax payer.
• Into Dublin General A&E. Paid for by the tax payer.
• Discharged with lots of freebies an a nice wave from the nurses. Paid for by the tax payer.
• Back home and guess what, lot’s of street lights. Paid for by the tax payer.
• New baby but scared as the local thugs are rowdy, let’s call the police. Paid for by the tax payer.
• Grow up and work for Apple. Tax no longer payable. Win Win right?

That list is almost endless.

 

[sim667]

So, if it's legal, where's the problem?

The probe is to determine whether it is legal.

The way the Irish business agreements are set up are essentially like state aid, and the eu is investigating whether the current agreements fall under the remit of illegal state aid.

 

[Ramchi]

Apple probably brings in a lot of jobs, which means more personal income tax and employees buy things so they pay sales tax. Does that added tax revenue offset any services Apple gets? I don't know.

Typically, income tax revenue through employment may not offset except for those services rendered and products sold directly from Ireland. If majority of the R&D, manufacturing, Sales, Distribution network, services rendered are outside the territory of Ireland, then the gap may be huge.
[doublepost=1453040803][/doublepost]

The probe is to determine whether it is legal.

The way the Irish business agreements are set up are essentially like state aid, and the eu is investigating whether the current agreements fall under the remit of illegal state aid.

Fortunately or Unfortunately, Ireland is part of EU and it must confirm to its regulations. If EU finds the agreement violates the EU principles or policies, it may fine both Ireland/Apple with retrospective effect.

These things eventually gets passed on to consumers one way or the other, if Apple is made to pay this huge amount!

 

[SarcasticJoe]

So are they breaking some sort of law, or just using Ireland's specifically low tax rate?

Ireland likes to make secret tax agreements with companies where they pay next to nothing taxes just to get their business. These kinds of agreements are illegal under EU regulations and reason why the EU didn't take action before this was they Ireland went out of it's way to make these agreements secret.

The why they didn't notice something was up before this is because Ireland has had a lower corporate tax rate than other EU countries (16% if I recall right, compared to 20% here in Finland and around 24% for most other EU countries) and a lot of companies have set up shop there because of this. Ireland has already agreed to nullify these agreements over a period of a few years and are now trying to fight any kind of punishment for breaking EU regulations and letting companies screw over EU taxpayers.

 

[sransari]

Taxes pay for almost everything under the sun, roads, schools, healthcare, police, fire departments, national defense, water, sewers, and so on. Without taxes, Apple (and every other companies under the sun) would not even exist.

Your assertion that government is needed to provide basic societal necessities is severely mistaken. Your faith in government to provide these products/services in an efficient manner is equally mistaken. Government has a proven track record for mismanaging tax revenue, and squandering it. Very little actually goes to the value-add items that you listed above. Surely you can see that cooperation through mutual agreements is the better to provide society's needed than taxes (i.e. the violent confiscation of other people's money).

 

[pjh]

Surely you can see that cooperation through mutual agreements is the better to provide society's needed than taxes (i.e. the violent confiscation of other people's money).

Can you point me in the direction of a single society that has developed in such a way and has advanced beyond stone age technology?

A democratically elected Government is just an evolution of the very system you just described anyway! We might not all like how Governments spend our money, but we have the right to campaign for change and if enough people support that change then it'll happen.

Your assertion that government is needed to provide basic societal necessities is severely mistaken. Your faith in government to provide these products/services in an efficient manner is equally mistaken.

This is utter right wing rubbish. Governments are by no means perfect, but they are by far the most efficient way of providing key universal services, such as education, healthcare, security and key transport projects. There is certainty an argument as to what services the State should provide and those that should be left to the private sector. But the fact is that the private sector will not provide a service that does not result in a profit. The provision of healthcare is perfect example of where the private sector excels at servicing the wealthy but leaves the less fortunate to fall by the wayside. You may be happy to live in a Nation when the provision of key services is dependant on your personal wealth, but thankfully most people are not.

As to squandering tax revenue, don't you think private enterprise does the same but with share holder money? I've worked in the private sector most of my career and the waste is tremendous.

Government has a proven track record for mismanaging tax revenue, and squandering it. Very little actually goes to the value-add items that you listed above.

Please provide some stats to back this up and I don't just mean a few cases of mismanagement. You Stated that "very little actually goes to the value-add items", so please give an example of a developed, first world Nation where most tax revenue adds no value. As for most, lets say 51% or more. Good luck with your search.

 

[H2SO4]

Your assertion that government is needed to provide basic societal necessities is severely mistaken. Your faith in government to provide these products/services in an efficient manner is equally mistaken. Government has a proven track record for mismanaging tax revenue, and squandering it. Very little actually goes to the value-add items that you listed above. Surely you can see that cooperation through mutual agreements is the better to provide society's needed than taxes (i.e. the violent confiscation of other people's money).

You are delusional.
He didn’t say that government provided the services in an efficient manner, There is probably just as much corruption at the top of Apple as there is at the top of the White House.
Whatever your take. The STATE provides for this and it has to be paid for.

 

[VulchR]

The EU can't even do its own book keeping ....

I think you'll find that rumour to be an urban myth the certain nationalistic governments keep trying to propagate.

 

[warrior2000]

Most likely Apple will pay a small amount in a settlement.

probably less than $1 billion.

How do I know this? Because Apple has not booked an $8 billion liability on their quarterly filings. Apple knows more about this case than any of us or anyone in the media. If they truly though their was a better than 50% of chance of getting an $8 billion fine they would have disclosed it. Apple is an extremely conservative reporting company.

Sorry Apple haters. But the 'fine' will be chump change to Apple. Probably $300-$700 million only.

 

[jeremy h]

Your assertion that government is needed to provide basic societal necessities is severely mistaken. Your faith in government to provide these products/services in an efficient manner is equally mistaken. Government has a proven track record for mismanaging tax revenue, and squandering it. Very little actually goes to the value-add items that you listed above. Surely you can see that cooperation through mutual agreements is the better to provide society's needed than taxes (i.e. the violent confiscation of other people's money).

I tend to really enjoy reading history books. Ancient history tends to be my thing but I'll read across most periods. One thing becomes apparent in most of the stuff I read is that all civilisations are built not with weapons or wars but with an efficient (and fair) tax system. Without such a system you don't have a nation. Most of the books I read purport to be histories of great warriors, armies and navies but in fact they're actually histories of accountants and tax collectors.


Edit -

Oh, just to add - the EEC shows the limit of what can be achieved when you attempt to set up a 'Nation' through mutual agreements without underpinning it with a common taxation system and its associated democratic government. Its come a huge way from a trade steel agreement but has reached the its limit as to what it can do with its current compromise/agreement/lets do a deal based structure. Just about everyone I read thinks the current status quo is unsustainable and the solution is either more or less integration depending on the political viewpoint of the writer.

 

[Lolito]

That seems like an atypical tax model. May I ask what country you operate in? I've never heard of a tax of 21% on gross receipts.

90% of countries in europe charge 21%, on the product, to the customer. then from the gross profit, I pay 35%. it's basically the same in all europe, unless you are a big fish with a bunch of lawyers and proper rat accountantns...
[doublepost=1453137663][/doublepost]

I'm going to guess that your one man company is put in the US and only earns money in the US. Apple pays similar taxes on the money they earn by selling product in the US, so in that they don't have much of an advantage (they probably have higher paid tax experts so might find more deductions, granted). This is only for sales in Europe.

If you could get a tax deal, are you saying you wouldn't take advantage of it?

Yes, i would take advantage of it if it was legal. What i say is that makes no ssense to charge 35% to a plumber, and 1,8% to Apple. Is not Apple fault, it's the fault of the politicians payed by apple, the media in which apple pays with advertising, the lobbies payed by apple, etc...