Apple Could Soon Face 'Sweeping' U.S. Antitrust Lawsuit

[Ethosik]

That is a ******** argument here.

That is the same as saying you don't like the state, city or country you are in move. Never mind the cost and logistics of that. Never mind if it is even possible.

It is that level of a ******** argument.

That’s just absolute entitlement attitude right there. Apple produces the product. Supply and demand. The cornerstone to running a business is making a product people will buy. Clearly enough people like Apple’s approach.

You are not entitled to force a company to change. You are not employed or on the board. YOU don’t like a product YOU don’t buy it.

There is “wanting change” and “forcing change”. You are using the government to force Apple to change because you think you can dictate how Apple products should be made. As a business owner, this is quite insulting to me. I run my own business. Not you. If I make a bad product that nobody wants that’s my decision. You can’t force me to change it.

This whole thing will set a bad precedent. Government needs to stay out of this. It’s business.

People compare this to the Microsoft case in the 90s but what people leave out is that Microsoft was making deals and intentionally making sure competitors were excluded. It wasn’t just one thing too with Netscape, they impacted Sun Java. Apple is not doing the same thing.

 

[Ethosik]

Okay. I agree. The ceiling for individual wealth should be $750B and the ceiling for corporations should be $3T. Now how is this going work?

How does this help? Apple is bigger than the sum of it's parts, just like AT&T was bigger than the sum of it's parts. It's true there were some minor benefits to the AT&T breakup. But today we have an oligopoly and there is no way for newcomer to enter become a cell provider because it's about being able to buy airwaves of which the government has a monopoly.

So rather than having anti-trust investigations against Apple, how about disassembling the government so it works "for the people., which is the part that has been lacking for quite a while.

Ceiling for corporations will limit how far individuals get. 3 trillion is a lot, but to have every Apple employee continue to get raises you will run into it sooner or later.

 

[JapanApple]

This whole thing will set a bad precedent. Government needs to stay out of this. It’s business.

Points at the UK

 

[avkills]

You're oversimplifying it by ignoring the very real network effects of the iPhone (and Android to a lesser degree).

Unlike iPhone and Android, mobile phones weren't software platforms back in 2007. There were very few barriers for consumers to switch brands, because there was no app ecosystem you had invested in, no cloud storage you were paying for, no photo libraries to port over, no missing app for your new phone by your favorite app developer.

Phones were more or less standalone devices.

This is all different today, and it's all to do with the network effects that come with software platforms.

It's 100x harder for a new phone or OS to break into the market place now, because we've all spent year and years spending money and buying apps and building out our ecosystem.

Most people simply won't abandon that for a slightly better experience.

The way I see it, everything *extra* that smartphones do today are luxury items. None of that stuff is needed to actually go about and live life.

And yes I would agree that it is very difficult for a *new* phone to break into the market; because of the years of being spoiled with all the extra luxury that has been added to these devices.

 

[1129846]

That’s…..the point. Android is far far FAR superior in so many ways, including digital assistants. The ONLY advantage iOS has is its closed ecosystem. But that will be taken away.

Closed ecosystem is not an advantage.

This should be good how you can explain how a closed ecosystem is an advantage to the consumer. It I sa great advantage to Apple and allows them to force poor experiences on people and force new products into play.

An example of a poor product shoved put is sign in with Apple. It is by far the worse of the major ones to implement, test and get working. It breaks fairly easily and a huge pain just to get it all set up. If it was not for Apple forcing devs to use it then you would not see it used that often. This is not for what it does and not supply to the devs. It supplies roughly the same info. It is just a huge pain to get it to work.

 

[1129846]

That’s just absolute entitlement attitude right there. Apple produces the product. Supply and demand. The cornerstone to running a business is making a product people will buy. Clearly enough people like Apple’s approach.

You are not entitled to force a company to change. You are not employed or on the board. YOU don’t like a product YOU don’t buy it.

There is “wanting change” and “forcing change”. You are using the government to force Apple to change because you think you can dictate how Apple products should be made. As a business owner, this is quite insulting to me. I run my own business. Not you. If I make a bad product that nobody wants that’s my decision. You can’t force me to change it.

This whole thing will set a bad precedent. Government needs to stay out of this. It’s business.

People compare this to the Microsoft case in the 90s but what people leave out is that Microsoft was making deals and intentionally making sure competitors were excluded. It wasn’t just one thing too with Netscape, they impacted Sun Java. Apple is not doing the same thing.

Since you call it an entitlement argument I will call your a fan boy argument and is on that level.

I called your orginal argument ******** and showed why. There are plenty of other reasons to say what the government is doing is wrong but if you have to resort to the buy a different one you don't have a good argument. It is on the exact same level as don't like your city state ect move.

So in your own argument don't like the United States doing this shut up and move. Plenty of other countries not doing this. Feel free to move to China.

Not saying the argument is good but it is the level of the one you are using.

 

[1129846]

The way I see it, everything *extra* that smartphones do today are luxury items. None of that stuff is needed to actually go about and live life.

And yes I would agree that it is very difficult for a *new* phone to break into the market; because of the years of being spoiled with all the extra luxury that has been added to these devices.

That was true in 2007. That is not so true today.

Today places except you to have a device connected to the internet to function. That like saying in 90's when Microsoft got busted that it was a luxury item.

Times have changed and you are right it is next to if not impossible for a new player to break into the OS market. Android and iOS have squeezed everyone else out.

 

[Ethosik]

Since you call it an entitlement argument I will call your a fan boy argument and is on that level.

I called your orginal argument ******** and showed why. There are plenty of other reasons to say what the government is doing is wrong but if you have to resort to the buy a different one you don't have a good argument. It is on the exact same level as don't like your city state ect move.

So in your own argument don't like the United States doing this shut up and move. Plenty of other countries not doing this. Feel free to move to China.

Not saying the argument is good but it is the level of the one you are using.

Again at the face of it, wanting change is different. I certainly want flagship NVIDIA to cost less. But FORCING change is different. You all CLEARLY don’t like Apple products if you need the entire ecosystem destroyed. Which is pretty much the ONLY advantage iPhone has over Android. And you all are weaponizing the government. This the “forcing” comes into play.

I hate hate HATE Windows these days. But I’m not on Windows forums or asking the government to spend tax dollars changing it all up. This is me “wanting change”. Microsoft can keep Aindows as it is now. It’s their product. Just because I want it all changed doesn’t mean I’m entitled to a product designed from the ground up FOR ME.

 

[Ethosik]

Closed ecosystem is not an advantage.

It is to me and most people I know. The only reason the chose iOS is because it’s closed.

 

[d686546s]

You are not entitled to force a company to change. You are not employed or on the board. YOU don’t like a product YOU don’t buy it.

No one here individually is, that's a strawman argument.

The government is very much entitled to force a company and products to change and does so all the time. It can set product standards or change the rules for how the market works. It can even break up companies in certain circumstances.

There is “wanting change” and “forcing change”. You are using the government to force Apple to change because you think you can dictate how Apple products should be made. As a business owner, this is quite insulting to me. I run my own business. Not you. If I make a bad product that nobody wants that’s my decision. You can’t force me to change it.

No I can't. The government can.

But I can have whatever opinion I want on how you should run your company and we can all vote for people who can tell you how to run your business.

If the way you run your business or your products don't meet legal requirements then you have to change. If your conduct is legal but the government thinks it shouldn't be, and passes new laws or regulations appropriately, then you have to change.

This whole thing will set a bad precedent. Government needs to stay out of this. It’s business.

Business affects us all and the precedent of government regulating the "free" market has been set a long long long time ago.

I'm not sure why people think digital services should be the only thing under the sun that shouldn't be subject to regulation.

 

[1129846]

It is to me and most people I know. The only reason the chose iOS is because it’s closed.

Then you don't understand what a closed system is.

Guess you don't download anything but official Apple produced apps.

You don't use the internet. Hell you don't even use MacOS.

If you think the app store protects you and being locked in keeps you safe I have some magic beans to sell you as it is a cake walk to by pass most of Apple protection and Trojan horse an app by Apple reviewer. It takes a little work but it is fairly easy. Big time if you add in a remote configuration that never turns on said feature until after Apple reviews the app. Most major Apps including Apple use remote configurations to turn on and off features.

You failed to even explain how a closed system is good.

Closed only wins for the company but always a lost to the consumer.

Assuming you only want this closed Apple opening it up does not affect you in any way.

 

[Ethosik]

Then you don't understand what a closed system is.

Guess you don't download anything but official Apple produced apps.

You don't use the internet. Hell you don't even use MacOS.

If you think the app store protects you and being locked in keeps you safe I have some magic beans to sell you as it is a cake walk to by pass most of Apple protection and Trojan horse an app by Apple reviewer. It takes a little work but it is fairly easy. Big time if you add in a remote configuration that never turns on said feature until after Apple reviews the app. Most major Apps including Apple use remote configurations to turn on and off features.

You failed to even explain how a closed system is good.

Closed only wins for the company but always a lost to the consumer.

Assuming you only want this closed Apple opening it up does not affect you in any way.

“You dont use the internet”. The fact that I’m here right now posting this comment makes your statement false right out of the gate.

I love it when people resort to these types of arguments. So just because I like iOS closed ecosystem means I don’t use internet, or computers, or macOS?

I’m not proceeding in this conversation because you clearly won’t have it in good faith. Your statements already shows this. Questioning my knowledge and saying I don’t use things when you don’t even know me.

 

[SpaceJello]

That's all that regulators want: Give people the chance to install a third party app store. They will not be forced to install it.

I believe you may have misinterpreted my point.

By your reasoning of having the ability to choose to “not go to countries with high crime rates”, how is that different from my having the ability to choose to “not use a phone ecosystem that is compromised by third party apps installed through third party app stores.”?

How is it ok for you to have the liberty to choose not to go to specific countries different than my liberty to choose not to use a phone ecosystem that is compromised by forced third party app stores and apps?

Do you see the similarity? Why is it ok for your liberty to choose and not mine?

*****

In fact, the regulators are taking away my liberty to choose a closed system product within a market with ample open system ones.

 

[d686546s]

In fact, the regulators are taking away my liberty to choose a closed system product within a market with ample open system ones.

There's always been product categories, individual products or variations of products and services you don't have the liberty to buy for various reasons and there's just as little intrinsic right to buy a closed ecosystem as there is to buy an open one. The ultimate arbiter of that is the executive, legislative and the courts.

Within those rules business is free to offer or not offer any products or services they choose.

 

[lartola]

It is to me and most people I know. The only reason the chose iOS is because it’s closed.

That’s not how most people chose their phone. Most who choose android do so because there are cheaper options. Most who choose apple do so because they want to show off the brand (similar to people who buy designer clothes).

 

[Analog Kid]

People compare this to the Microsoft case in the 90s but what people leave out is that Microsoft was making deals and intentionally making sure competitors were excluded. It wasn’t just one thing too with Netscape, they impacted Sun Java. Apple is not doing the same thing.

"Embrace, extend, extinguish"
"Cut off their air supply"
Showing up at Netscape offering to illegally divide the market, giving Netscape the scraps under existential threat.
And, as you say, Netscape was only one example.

Yeah, like most things that enter the news cycle, there's a lot of awareness at the beginning and everyone hears the talking points, but no awareness of the outcome because people don't have the attention span. It was a very different situation and while it was arguably more justified to go after Microsoft at the time, in retrospect it hardly seems to have been worth it.

Years of litigation and no tangible impact on Microsoft in the end. They had like 35% browser share when the trial started and 90% after it was over with a ruling that they wouldn't be broken up and with no restrictions on bundling apps with Windows. Apple could only hope for a repeat of the Microsoft experience.

 

[Analog Kid]

Most who choose apple do so because they want to show off the brand (similar to people who buy designer clothes).

citation needed

 

[1129846]

“You dont use the internet”. The fact that I’m here right now posting this comment makes your statement false right out of the gate.

I love it when people resort to these types of arguments. So just because I like iOS closed ecosystem means I don’t use internet, or computers, or macOS?

I’m not proceeding in this conversation because you clearly won’t have it in good faith. Your statements already shows this. Questioning my knowledge and saying I don’t use things when you don’t even know me.

No I ask what is a closed system but you can run away because it is pretty clear you are the one not arguing in good faith but then again you are the one who started with the argument if you dont like it buy something else.

But then again you say not in good faith but we can point out to multiple fan boy argument level you have been made. So no I have not been acting in bad faith. I more just resorted to your level of arguments.
But hey the same argument you are making why Apple should not be looked hard at ribght now could be used in the 90;s on Microsoft were they got put under oversight. If it was not for that oversight and hammer the iPhone we all love would never of existed as Apple would be a foot note in the history books. Damn history and facts getting in the way.

You are the one pretending Apple is not abusing its vertical position. You are the one who says dont like it leave. You are the one basically saying any one here who is for this should leave. I not the one making that but you sure as hell are.
You seem to not understand the difference between liking a product and also wanting it to change. So dont say I am not acting in good faith. Sadly I got baited into your bad faith arguments. Now run away as people are seeing the truth of your bad faith.

 

[I7guy]

You're oversimplifying it by ignoring the very real network effects of the iPhone (and Android to a lesser degree).

Unlike iPhone and Android, mobile phones weren't software platforms back in 2007.

But there were a platform in 2008 with the advent of the App Store.

There were very few barriers for consumers to switch brands, because there was no app ecosystem you had invested in, no cloud storage you were paying for, no photo libraries to port over, no missing app for your new phone by your favorite app developer.

Vendor lock in today’s world is real with almost every single consumer product. The difference is some are more expensive than others (eg cars) to go to a different vendor.

Phones were more or less standalone devices.

This is all different today, and it's all to do with the network effects that come with software platforms.

People who want to switch can.

It's 100x harder for a new phone or OS to break into the market place now, because we've all spent year and years spending money and buying apps and building out our ecosystem.

It’s difficult for many markets not only phones . There isn’t any legal restrictions in the way however for the smartphone market. Want a tough market— try breaking into the cellular market as a tier one player.

Most people simply won't abandon that for a slightly better experience.

Many people like the ecosystem they are one and for that reason don’t want to move.

 

[AgeOfSpiracles]

The anti-stalking features make AirTags almost useless for recovering stolen goods.

Then you buy something that is actually intended for recovering stolen goods, ie not AirTags. Personally, I have zero interest in tracking down thieves... The police aren't going to do anything, and I'm sure as hell not going to confront that type of person. However, I lose stuff constantly so I'm very interested in recovering lost or misplaced items, and there's nothing better than AirTags.

 

[redbeard331]

Nonsense. I own my phone. I CHOSE the Apple iPhone because, IMHO, it is a better product. There are alternatives. If you don’t like Apple, pick one.

This makes no sense, because you chose to buy an iPhone means the whole world shouldn’t have control of their own devices? Do you even hear yourself?

 

[I7guy]

This makes no sense, because you chose to buy an iPhone means the whole world shouldn’t have control of their own devices? Do you even hear yourself?

Don’t buy a product that doesn’t meet your needs. Simple.

 

[1129846]

Don’t buy a product that doesn’t meet your needs. Simple.

Dont like the country you live in MOVE. Based completely on your argument you should leave the EU, Japan and the United States.
That is the level of that entire argument. Never mind everything else.

That argument sounds pretty dumb when you put it like that because I am just pointing out the level of that entire argument. There are better ways to debat things but doing that one is straight up a bull **** argument in bad faith.

 

[1129846]

The anti-stalking features make AirTags almost useless for recovering stolen goods.

Air tags was NEVER and I repeat NEVER advertised for that goal. if you are using airtags to prevent your stuff from being stolen you are using them incorrectly.

 

[makitango]

I prefer a walled garden approach. If I didn’t like a walled garden approach, I would switch to Android.

And you can continue to do so. It‘s us others who get the choice to leave it if we so choose. Not everyone wants to ride their bike with training wheels.