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This was extremely confusing! For people that want to use Logic Pro or Ableton Live they need to know how many "performance cores" a chip has. Because that software use performance cores for processing. Not efficiency cores. So the "new" performance cores, is actually efficiency cores now? And the super core is performance cores?

Very annoying that apple does this.
 
"Super cores" are the new "Performance cores".
"Performance cores" are the new "Economy cores".
It's just marketing.

no there are apparently now three core types.
Efficiency, Performance, and Super.
The base M5 has just Es and Ps. The pros and maxs have Ps and Ss.

Daring fireball site has some details to clarify this
 
M4 Pro performance cores 4.51GHz,efficiency cores 2.59GHz ,M5 Pro super cores 4.61GHz, performance cores 4.38GHz
HCfwwdZakAIOu3_.jpg
 
Have we solved battery drain on any 14-inch with the Max chip?

I have friends on M2/M3 Pro’s 14” and 16”, and we all work on the same thing and I notice significant battery drain on my 14” M3 Max in comparison to theirs.

I understand it requires more to power but if I’m not doing anything resource intensive in the moment than why… The low performance mode makes everything really slow, and turns off 120Hz, it’s not an option.
 
The base M5 has just Es and Ps. The pros and maxs have Ps and Ss.
According to the info popup on the M5 Mac order page, the M5 spec has been retconned to "4 Super Cores and 4 Efficency Cores" - so confusion reigns and I re-iterate my "Just marketing" comment.
 
According to the info popup on the M5 Mac order page, the M5 spec has been retconned to "4 Super Cores and 4 Efficency Cores" - so confusion reigns and I re-iterate my "Just marketing" comment.

The cores are physically different. Any errors are Gruber's fault 🙂
Edit I give up formatting this table
EfficiencyPerformanceSuper
M564
M5 Pro Binned105
M5 Pro126
M5 Max126
 
The new naming is, to be honest, confusing.
The M5 Pro/Max cores are called super and "all-new performance" but on regular M5 they're called now super and still efficient.

Feels like they're making M6 (and/or Pro/Max) or later with 3 different cores - super, performance and efficient, because why wouldn't they change the naming of regular M5's efficient cores to the "all-new performance" if they already changed performance to "super"?
The truth is that the processors are Very Fast, Even Faster, and Even Faster Than That!

That is the truth, but it is very difficult for a marketing person to describe these things. It truly is difficult. Go start a thread suggesting a naming convention and you'll quickly see people arguing with you about how to accurately describe it all.
 
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no there are apparently now three core types.
Efficiency, Performance, and Super.
The base M5 has just Es and Ps. The pros and maxs have Ps and Ss.

Daring fireball site has some details to clarify this
If the CPU has two types of cores, by definition, should not they be called "performance" and "efficiency" cores? That's industry standard terminology and it makes sense. Anything else is typical Apple idiotic marketing. Next we'll get "super liquid" cores.
 
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If the CPU has two types of cores, by definition, should not they be called "performance" and "efficiency" cores? That's industry standard terminology and it makes sense. Anything else is typical Apple idiotic marketing. Next we'll get "super liquid" cores.

The CPU family has three core types and apple is trying to distinguish which ones you are getting based on the chip you get.

Intel is doing this now as well. They have three core types in panther lake, of which you will get a complement of depending on the chip. P-cores, E-cores, and LP-E cores.

Ironically intel names make more sense lol.
 
Interested in how these chips are packaged. The old Ultra chips were two Max chips packaged together using a local silicon interconnect (LSI)/Silicon bridge to connect various I/Os together. The description for the M5 Pro / Max sounds like there are two dies which makes me think one of the following
  • The Max chip is 2 Pro chips connected together like an Ultra chip
  • Apple have moved to a chiplet design with both dies packaged on a full silicon interposer (and the Ultra variation will be 3-4 dies on a full silicon interposer)

It actually sounds like three computational dies. (and one '2.5' bridge die like before).

1 - CPU + I/O + ???
2 - GPU + Memory controller + ??? (and two variants of this one 20 and one 40 with scaled Memory wiht GPU cores. )

where the NPU, media acceleration, display controllers land is up in the air a bit .


If the Max was two pro dies then the CPU count would go up. The CPU count is constant for both Pro and Max ( minu some binning of cores ... binning is likely done on the die; cores present just turned off. ) . The Max just doesn't get binned down CPU chiplets (all of those are shuffled into the Pro label for distribution.).

The huge jump in bandwidth with GPU core change likely means those are coupled together. Pretty good chance the new Fusion interface is just more bandwidth so that the CPUs and I/O and ?? can sit isloated from the memory buses.

An ultra would be probably four dies. Two CPU+ dies and two GPU Max dies plus some different 'glue'/brdige die (maybe more I/O ) to integrate it. Binned down CPU dies may show up here also so a larger cost range. Conceptually Apple could do a lower Ultra wtih two Pro GPU chiplets but I suspect that isn't likely as the bandwidth would drop also and probably not worth the extra SKU complexity.
 
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If the CPU has two types of cores, by definition, should not they be called "performance" and "efficiency" cores? That's industry standard terminology and it makes sense. Anything else is typical Apple idiotic marketing. Next we'll get "super liquid" cores.

Whose industry standard is this? Companies are all over the place with naming. Qualcomm has Prime and Performance cores. Mediatek and Google have all sorts of configurations like 1+5+2 or 1+3+4.
 
If the CPU has two types of cores, by definition, should not they be called "performance" and "efficiency" cores? That's industry standard terminology and it makes sense.

AMD calls their footprint optimized cores C cores ( cloud cores). That maybe what Apple has done here. Either they have taken the 'old' P core and space optimized it a bit ( lower single thread drag racing , max clock). The new P cores are optimized for max multiple threading. Lots of cores all running at the same time while thermal coupled... none of them are likely going to get to max clock if doing it efficiently. Maxing clocks suck up more die space... so chuck that trade off.

Similarly Apple could do sometihng slightly similar by scaling up E cores. More energy consumption (and bigger caches ) to get to faster clock rate off the same base design.

Either way you end up with a 'in-between" core. It doesn't have to have a substantially different microarchitecture.


Similarly Intel now has P , E , LP cores. Rumors are AMD is going to a similar route in a generation or two (i.e., adding a 'LP' option. ). In x86 world 'E' has mainly meant 'smaller' at least as much as 'energy efficient'.


Anything else is typical Apple idiotic marketing. Next we'll get "super liquid" cores.

There are lots of threads about the Max/Utlra packages where a some folks grumble at 'useless' E cores ... give me more P cores. Now they get P cores and Super(Uber) cores. The folks who buy into the 'Power user' image are going to eat this up.

What was somewhat dumb for Apple was to introduce the M5 originally with just P and E cores and now have to relabel something they already shipped with Super cores. Same chip , but now different core names. It smells like they perhaps wanted to do this all the the same time with a full MBP rollout and it got decoupled. But also wanted to hold onto the suprise of the third cores. Could have switch to Super+E and just left a gap but rumors likely would have spun out of control.

Simiarly can get more M1-M4 folks to upgrade when they only have Performance cores and the new plain M5 and up SoCs have 'super' cores.


This is more 'messy' than idiotic. By M6 or M7 gen release it won't mean anything.


P.S. post 103 above. The P cores have in incrementally max clock down from the Super cores. This is same side effiect the AMD C cores have. chop down the max single thread drag racing speed because these are not single thread workload drag racing cores.
 
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And still very few games for the Mac on Steam... 😭
No FFX/X-2 HD Remaster on Mac on Steam, for example.
 
The Snapdragon X2 Elite top version also has 18 cores, but they say 12 Prime (Super) cores and 6 Performance (Performance) cores.

Yet the M5 Pro/Max is going to absolutely trounce the Qualcomm processors despite have a supposedly inferior mix of cores (fewer of the fastest cores).

Fastest at single threading. Not necessarily faster on long , multithreaded workloads. (e.g, of burn off some energy have to throttle after a while then not really faster except for micro, tech porn benchmarks). If have cores optimized for multithreading contexts the superior mix of those are more than the stuff that is skewed toward single threaded workloads.

Snapdragon's X2 Prime/Super cores probably don't even beat Apple's new P cores any more than they beat Apple's older P cores of a the same time period. (X2 Elite beat M3 but not M4 or M5. Have to look backwards in time on the Apple side for any wins.).

However, it is somewhat of a response though by Apple to putting some more distances between themselves and Qualcomm/Intel/AMD in the Pro/Max systems space.

P.S. 12 Prime/Super cores on X2 Elite probably has a major contribution in the Window's scheduler being less than optimal on any mix of heterogeneous cores. Just let the scheduler hand out over the larger chunk before it starts messing it up. And have enough of the others so can just jungle only 6 in standby lower usage mode.
 
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Snapdragon X2 Elite made significant gains over the X1 generation. I'm not arguing more cores, etc. I'm just saying M5 is a more mature product than SD X2 so it's hardly a proper comparison. Since X2 actually performs similar to an M4 in many tests, I'd say they're doing pretty good.
Yeah. It will be interesting to see where they go.
The biggest issue they really have is a proper Windows on ARM, so as long as Microslop keeps slopp’n, those chips won’t get much action.
 
And still very few games for the Mac on Steam... 😭
No FFX/X-2 HD Remaster on Mac on Steam, for example.
Was FFX/X-2 ever on Mac to begin with?

I find lots of games on Steam for Mac, just none I wanna play. There are ton of PC games that get ported to iPad and iPhone as mobile versions, but the devs can’t seem to push one button to make them work on Mac. Really, it’s the same hardware architecture.
 
I don’t know why people are surprised at price rises. Every last thing in the US costs more now than it did a year ago.
I didn’t say it’s more expensive. These MacBook Pros M5 series are cheaper in France than they used to cost between M1 and M4 generations.
 
If the CPU has two types of cores, by definition, should not they be called "performance" and "efficiency" cores? That's industry standard terminology and it makes sense. Anything else is typical Apple idiotic marketing. Next we'll get "super liquid" cores.

A more traditional would be "big.LITTLE" (except that now there are two kinds of LITTLE cores). I do sympathize with your position, and as a tech enthusiast, I too find the new marketing odd.

However, I think it is important to see the problem that Apple is dealing with. If they keep the old nomenclature, to the vast majority of customers it looks like the MacBook Pro has lost the half of its performance cores. These customers are not tech savvy and they are hardly interested in the technical details of CPU cluster architecture and multicore processing constraints. As a company, you have to manage product perception. From this perspective, changing how you describe things makes sense, and is arguably a safer solution than trying to reeducate the customer. I mean, they are taking a real risk here anyway.
 
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Got any links for these benchmarks? I haven’t see anything that makes me think they’re impressive.

Qualcomm: “Look over here! Our power-hungry 18 core X2 Elite actually does some things faster than a 10 core M5.”
You already seem biased against it so I won't bother spending any time sending you any links. Do your own research if you really care, which I don't think you do, based on your post.
 
It seems it’s not just the pro and max processors. Apple lists systems with the base M5 as having “super cores” as well.
 
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