Yet when the iPhone has NFC, you and everyone will be shouting from the mountain top about how magical it is.
Amazing.
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Apple Deliberately Holding Back on Mobile Payment System
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Yet when the iPhone has NFC, you and everyone will be shouting from the mountain top about how magical it is.
Amazing.
Here's the explanation for thick people:
If you allow for wireless transactions over longer distances, there are a great number of people who might be able to listen in on the transaction. Since there is nothing as "absolute security", there's always a chance that the encryption could be broken.
When the range is very short (like 1-2 inches) there is little chance that a third party can snoop in.
But again, these NFC POS terminals need to be designed to support unpowered devices. That's really the NFC spec. Using WiFi or Bluetooth really doesn't make any sense, it limits the number of possible transactions because the client chip needs power.
There are certain situations where longer distance wireless payment systems are used (e.g., FasTrak toll payment on vehicles in California), but these are isolated cases that aren't ideal for cellphones.
Note that swiping a credit card through a POS terminal is basically the old-school equivalent of plugging in a cable. We don't need to implement that since it's basically what we've done for twenty years.
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But it's not.
Normally, a debit card is in a wallet. Which could also mean buried in handbag with two dozen other items. And it could be amongst a dozen other cards of the same size.
The more telling story is when you need to pull out a loyalty card or something like a Clipper Card (by your handle, I assume you are familiar with the SF Bay Area's transit card). You can't tag on with your bank's debit MasterCard at a Clipper Card terminal.
Just go to a train station platform. Look at the people waiting for the train. Count how many people have cellphones in their hands and how many have wallets (or cards) in their hands.
Yeah, I thought so.
I keep my wallet pretty slender, but I still have two credit cards, one debit card, and the aforementioned Clipper Card. Plus my California driver's license and an insurance card. That's six cards in one wallet and I know exactly where the debit card is, but it's still easier for me to pull a cellphone out of a pocket (if it isn't already in my hand).
Heck, do the same test at an airport terminal. Count how many wallets you see versus the number of cellphones. It is likely that 98% of travelers have their cellphones more handy than their wallets. Handy meaning "in their hand".
That's why the "osaifu keitai" (literally "wallet phone") because so popular after its introduction in Japan in 2005. It functioned on the JR East rail system as a Mobile Suica transit pass.
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sounds cool, I d love to give it a go too at some point, but right now I just have enough for that big mac on my cc and as sure as eff that guy with the scanner ain't getting my big mac off me.
Would be interesting though to actually get an email, 10.45 pm, macdonalds $4.00 at crooked str., and to turn around and see that dude that was standing in line just after you enjoying his big mac across the street and giving you the finger. Technology offers new avenues for human interaction, and I am sure some good old *** whooping interaction would be warranted in this case.
Personally, I'm not a fan at all of using NFC as a means for mobile payments. With as much consumer debt as people carry these days I would personally like to see us getting away from using methods that make it easier for people to pile up debt.
- Prepaid balance (ala Google Wallet)
- Linked to debit card
Apple is not in business of selling paper lists of features. Today NFC is next to useless.
Without a doubt iPhone 5 will fail because this
I can't get over this. Apple announces its not doing something everyone was expecting and everyone falls all over themselves proclaiming what a great decision it is.
Because everyone want company to jump into technology without a clue (like Google TV perhaps)?
Apple is not in business of selling paper lists of features. Today NFC is next to useless.
Without a doubt iPhone 5 will fail because this
There's a little paper list feature known as siri that from what I am hearing is next to useless today. Surely it's not apple who threw that in the mix? Because apple are all about complete features, not paper list ones. (I hear the reply coming, they put it there so it learns and improves... interesting, cause I though they put it there cause they kept the same design and screen size for the iphone and they didn't have that much to sell the iphone for, unless you count a redesign antenna that doesn't actually drop calls or lose signal a feature.)
iphone 5 might fail with or without nfc if they do go ahead with the remote control long and tall design. Unless they were planting these leaks to gauge user reactions and/or lower the expectations and they are going ahead with another model.
NFC = solution looking for a problem.
From Credit/Debit Cards to Paypal to Square. There's simply not enough pain points to make NFC a consumer necessity.
From Credit/Debit Cards to Paypal to Square. There's simply not enough pain points to make NFC a consumer necessity.
NFC is great, its used a lot in Japan (especially by the train systems), better than swiping a card or trying to scan a bar code off your screen. I can definitely see why Apple is taking their time on this, our infrastructure for NFC is not quite there yet, and its still very early in the game, better to let it shake out a bit.
I urge you to note that people are still using that paper list feature called Siri more than they use NFC. That is a FACT. Apple could have added LTE last year too, would there be a difference? NO! because it requires a suffisticated wide network to be in place before you can use that technology.
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It’s Felica that is used in Japan, not NFC. It’s RFID on steroids.
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This is such an awkwardly wrong statement. People don't really know how NFC works so they shouldn't do it? People are concerned about security with an Apple product? People need to be really comfortable before moving on to the next technology?
Going by this logic they should have put a physical keyboard on the iPhone. The apparent approach they are doing with payments is very not-Apple. Apple doesn't think about markets, Apple doesn't think about what other companies are doing. They think about creating a single awesome user experience and then they unleash the product on the market. With their simplistic interfaces packed with next-gen features, their products are a hit. They have the opportunity to spearhead mobile payments, and instead are passing it up for everyone else. Doesn't sound like Apple at all
very strange.
I never said people shouldn't use NFC. I said people would probably be hesitant using it for their MONEY until they learn a bit more about it and ease in to using it. This isn't a keyboard, display, content, or anything else. This is dealing with people's MONEY and I don't know about you, but when using a new technology that handles my money I want to learn more about it and how it works and if it's secure. I use Paypal all the time now, but at first I was very careful, learned, and asked questions FIRST before I became comfortable with it. I feel pretty confident in saying that I wasn't the one. Apple knows this. They know people's money is a touchy subject and they want to make sure that it's done right and that their clients are eased into using this service rather then pushing it on them only to have it potentially fail. Sure that's not a typical Apple approach, but I don't think this is a typical tech feature that you rush into. They didn't rush into the iPhone either. That was under wraps for years as they watched what everybody else was doing and made it better. Good things take time. Be patient because the results will be awesome
Dont know how this NFC problem is going to be solved, but in general idea itself of not having to carry around that inflated wallet of mine anymore is kinda pleasing.
You claimed that apple doesn't put in paper list features and you dished nfc for not being a completely functional idea, which is exactly what siri is, it's beta software for crying out loud, regardless of how many people use one or the other. But of course whatever apple doesn't offer it's not there because it's not complete and it's just a paper list feature. As soon as apple though have to come up with something on their phone that hasn't gained in screen size or been redesigned they can throw in beta software and list them as features. How convenient.
It's the same type of logic with the ipad mini: apple has done extensive tests and noted an optimal screen size that can't go any smaller, because that's what they are offering at the moment. As soon as others carve a market for smaller devices and apple realizes it's got to take some of that market too, then somehow an ipad mini is about to materialize and we even learn that they were contemplating it way back when they were claiming anything smaller than their size was an aberration. The optimal is whatever apple has, if apple doesn't offer something they are paper list features. No sd cards on ipads? Paper list feature. No fm radio on iphone like 95% of all phones do: paper list feature. No liquid draining keyboards that prevent damage to the motherboard like lenovo? Paperlist feature. No usb3 for some time? Plf. No blue ray? Plf. HDMI on a macbook pro? No longer a paper list feature, because now apple offer it.
You know something man? It's hard to be taken seriously when you dismiss and smugly snob whatever the competition has with such claims. At some point you ll say it's a paper list feature that's not fully functional and someone like myself will answer back siri beta software to you, and you 'll be mad because you were hoisted with your own petard. It's much easier if you just give credit where credit is due when some other party introduces a new technology instead of apple fanboi snobbery.
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The idea that anyone should get a cut is disgusting. Apple should make their money from selling technology. Banks should make their money from lending the money deposited with them by savers. This middle-man 'skimming' of money for nothing is endemic and represents everything that is wrong with business these days.
Why the hell should anyone profit from the fact that I spend my own money? And don't argue it costs money to provide the facilty to spend it: you'd be outraged if every time you spent cash in a shop you received a bill from your bank a week later.
I may be wrong, but I don't see why you can't just use wifi or the cell network for this kind of payment and bypass NFC hardware all together.
The trouble with NFC is that someone has to provide the hardware and software to the shops (like the credit cards do now). This costs a lot and without an industry standard or potential customers, there is no incentive to invest.
We already pay online via the browser on our phones, so why not make a local version of this?
My guess is that Apple will somehow provide the shops with an online secure portal link to iPhones via an app (passbook?). They already do this in their own stores now, so they know how to do it.
Now they just need to roll it out and of course they would take a %fee to process the payment just like the credit card companies do at the moment.
The trouble with NFC is that someone has to provide the hardware and software to the shops (like the credit cards do now). This costs a lot and without an industry standard or potential customers, there is no incentive to invest.
We already pay online via the browser on our phones, so why not make a local version of this?
My guess is that Apple will somehow provide the shops with an online secure portal link to iPhones via an app (passbook?). They already do this in their own stores now, so they know how to do it.
Now they just need to roll it out and of course they would take a %fee to process the payment just like the credit card companies do at the moment.
Hopefully we'll see the decline of credit cards and will be able to use something else. Having to use credit cards to rent a car looks just so primitive.
Well said, we are thinking alike on this topic. I agree with every point you've made.
It's why I said that if Apple gets involved in mobile payments I'm immediately dumping my iPhones. I'll pull every iPhone from each family member & replace them with whatever they want. I'm not even going to wait until their up for replacement, or contract renewal, I'll swap them out swiftly.
The best way to vote is with ones money. I'm not about to buy (or use) any more iPhones with Apple being involved in a proprietary mobile payment system, primarily designed to further their profit and control.
I've already got a plethora of new Androids as well as arrangements to obtain one of the first Windows 8 phones just for the fun of it. Nothing beats the enjoyment of trying something new.
As one that's a huge advocate of mobile communications & computing, I enjoy having a variety of smartphones & laptops on different platforms.
Not innovation but security. If Apple passes on NFC they are not alone. Symbol and others have held back on the NFC bandwagon due to this. There are already NFC vampire apps for Andriod connecting to Bluetooth enabled NFC readers. Mod these readers enough and the reflective transmission of these NFC credit cards can be in meters. IMO, NFC needs a near total redesign on the network and transport layers for security. Sure Apple spotted this.
I reckon passbook is a stepping stone to a wallet, and it could potentially overcome one of the security holes in NFC - the way you can steal from people's phones while they're stilly inside pockets or bags. If the payment is confirmed by a barcode on the screen, the appearance of which is triggered by an NFC signal, this can no longer happen.
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It's sort of understandable when the payment companies give the payment hardware free to the shops - after all they've got to pay for their R&D, production of the hardware, maintenance of the service, etc. How would the systems exist if they didn't get paid? This may be different in Apple's case though, as I doubt they'll be giving anything away for free.
One thing to consider, though, is how much does it cost the shop owners to handle huge volumes of cash, especially coins? Quite a lot, I'd imagine.
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It's sort of understandable when the payment companies give the payment hardware free to the shops - after all they've got to pay for their R&D, production of the hardware, maintenance of the service, etc. How would the systems exist if they didn't get paid? This may be different in Apple's case though, as I doubt they'll be giving anything away for free.
One thing to consider, though, is how much does it cost the shop owners to handle huge volumes of cash, especially coins? Quite a lot, I'd imagine.
Apple announces NFC and iPay app for iPhone 5... your so excited about the wallet-less future, so you pick one up at the Apple store and set it up. You decide you want to try it out, so you go to the store (which is in walking distance so you don't need your wallet) to pick up a shopping cart worth of groceries. You make it to the check counter and the women says we don't take NFC check outs yet. <---- That is the "innovation" Apple is passing up.
So Apple is probably going to make it like the Apple Store app you scan it and check out with out going to the counter.
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Grab wallet > open wallet > grab card > figure out which way to swipe > swipe > enter code
Grab iphone > swipe > enter code?
I don't see your logic... even if the card was in a wallet you still have a lot of steps.
So Apple is probably going to make it like the Apple Store app you scan it and check out with out going to the counter.
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Grab wallet > open wallet > grab card > figure out which way to swipe > swipe > enter code
Grab iphone > swipe > enter code?
I don't see your logic... even if the card was in a wallet you still have a lot of steps.